Which would take us right back to the first few posts of this entire thread!
Damn, show proof of a placebo and not much more, wonder how many that would drive back to smokes?
So - are we getting it or are we not - nicotine
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Which would take us right back to the first few posts of this entire thread!
Damn, show proof of a placebo and not much more, wonder how many that would drive back to smokes?
Well, if it is put into the placebo category then maybe they will not consider it a threat that needs regulating? Placebo or not, there are a lot of folks claiming the stuff works for them. If it has a higher success rate than any other NRT then it still should be a good thing. You know there are many people who are successful at going cold turkey. A lot of those folks will be successful at e-cigs and drive up the success rate.
Would be interested in how he tested the vapour,
currently I get measure 92 to 95% of the nicotine in the juice coming out
in the vapour as titratable (DVap method) 'nicotine'
(in quotes cos there may be some alteration, but it's obviously mainly nicotine).
How much is exhaled is another matter...may be testing this soon...,
(and why we don't necessarily get the quick 'uptake' of the nicotine)
Ya know, snus is doing me well. I think I could live with just snus if I had to. I do like the smoking action and I do like the slight lung tickle I get with the 36 and 48, I'm hooked on those, but something I could knuckle down and function without after the initial withdrawl. WTA I can't, so the snus fulfills the real addiction needs that my body relies on for normal function. Without what I get from snus, I'd definitely go back to smoking...even with an endless supply of PV nic.
Great, Bill Godshall, another anti with so-called damning data.
Given our empirical observations, my nicotine trap testing, Exo's improved nicotine trap testing, and WTA efficacy, how can we and why should we believe him?
Vape about 2 mL of 36 mg just before bed, and tell me you don't have those totally bizarre and vivid dreams that are well known to 21 mg nicotine patch users.
In order to come to the experimental conclusion that e-cigs are nicotine placebos would require one to, either through stunning incompetence or devious shenanigans, design a fatally flawed experimental methodology.
Would the antis do something like that?
Hell yes. We've seen it often.
Their self-righteousness validates any means necessary to make their case. This would include bald-faced lies and cooked data.
Unless the methodology to such a study that claims to show little to no e-cig nicotine delivery is revealed in gory detail, it should be discounted as baseless propaganda. If the methodology is revealed, it should be simple to demonstrate it to be crap. E-cigs deliver the nicotine. Period. Shut the hell up.
We know here that the problem isn't that e-cigs don't deliver nicotine, the problem is that e-cigs deliver nicotine, and only nicotine, quite well.
In short, and within the limits of the language filters on these forums, I call bulls**t.
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Interesting to hear your experiment with the "liquid smoke" idea, TBob - thanks for sharing. (And why am I not surprised that you've already been there/done that/got the dang T-shirt? 
)
This would contradict my experiments with a blood pressure cuff and heart-rate monitor while vaping first thing in the morning. It acted like a CNS stimulant. Granted, MAOIs such as I'm on can increase the nervous-system effects of stimulants, but my "anecdata" and subjective experience seemed robust.
Would finding they are a "placebo" lead to a higher or lower regulatory hurdle, I wonder?
OTD: I think you might be right. The lightheadedness could come from CO limiting the amount of oxygen coming to the brain. It would mimic the lightheadedness effects of high altitude where O2 is limited. A doctor friend of mine (granted, a radiologist) said that was "unlikely", but I kind of question his off-the-cuff dismissal.
Another out-there possibility is: It's known that individuals metabolize nicotine at highly variable rates thanks to polymorphisms in some CYP450 liver enzymes (2B6 and 2A6). This could be one possible reason why some people might find cigarettes far more powerful than vaping -- their particular liver burns through nic like crazy, but the whole alkaloids are what hits 'em. It might also explain why some people can vape 36mg all day and not feel much (aside from the stimulant tolerance). Dunno.
)Wow....
This would contradict my experiments with a blood pressure cuff and heart-rate monitor while vaping first thing in the morning. It acted like a CNS stimulant. Granted, MAOIs such as I'm on can increase the nervous-system effects of stimulants, but my "anecdata" and subjective experience seemed robust.
Would finding they are a "placebo" lead to a higher or lower regulatory hurdle, I wonder?
OTD: I think you might be right. The lightheadedness could come from CO limiting the amount of oxygen coming to the brain. It would mimic the lightheadedness effects of high altitude where O2 is limited. A doctor friend of mine (granted, a radiologist) said that was "unlikely", but I kind of question his off-the-cuff dismissal.
Another out-there possibility is: It's known that individuals metabolize nicotine at highly variable rates thanks to polymorphisms in some CYP450 liver enzymes (2B6 and 2A6). This could be one possible reason why some people might find cigarettes far more powerful than vaping -- their particular liver burns through nic like crazy, but the whole alkaloids are what hits 'em. It might also explain why some people can vape 36mg all day and not feel much (aside from the stimulant tolerance). Dunno.
I will be glad to offer my proof. That is no placebo that agrivates the hell out of my GI track when I over do it with nic strength. I have tried twice to vape 36mg and both times my acid reflux red lined and I developed gastric ulcers and GERD. I know that the nicotine alone wasn't responsible but it sure agrivated the situation. Back at 24mg I can control the acid with medication. At 36mg I wasn't able to make it on 2 seperate attempts.
I'll tell you, GERD for someone who has experienced real angina is a scarry event. Feels just like a heart attack.
I'll tell you, GERD for someone who has experienced real angina is a scarry event. Feels just like a heart attack.
Add that to the list of empirical proof of e-cig nicotine delivery. Backed up, of course, by hard data from Exo and me.
I've had many times that I've vaped to nausea and sedation trying the get relief from x-factor withdrawls. My nic's real .
.I can't believe e-cigs are a placebo either. Having quit cold turkey twice, the first thing
I looked for when starting was at my appetite and weight gain. That did not happen with
36mg. liquids and I credit that to the nicotine.
Maybe I'm not getting all 36, but I'm getting enough and enough through out the day that I need to cut down during the day or it feels like too much. And certainly at night, so I can sleep. Just strange that someone would suggest that to you, TropicalBob - interesting.
I looked for when starting was at my appetite and weight gain. That did not happen with
36mg. liquids and I credit that to the nicotine.
Maybe I'm not getting all 36, but I'm getting enough and enough through out the day that I need to cut down during the day or it feels like too much. And certainly at night, so I can sleep. Just strange that someone would suggest that to you, TropicalBob - interesting.
Great. First show placebo. Then (I bet) entirely allow e-cigs, unregulated, with zero-nic, as long as they're properly labelled as a smoking placebo. And prohibit them entirely with non-zero nic, because nic makes no difference to the user, and nic is a controlled substance.
Damned if I'll go along with it. I will continue to use 30mg nic placebo, legal or not.
Damned if I'll go along with it. I will continue to use 30mg nic placebo, legal or not.
Well, first off, Bill Godshall, a vehement anti-tobacco proponent, is on our side as far as e-smoking is concerned. He thinks e-cigs should be a special category for regulation purposes and has lobbied to that effect. His post was in another part of this forum, warning of test results soon to be revealed.
But I did talk on the phone to a man whose company commissioned lab tests on e-liquid, and he was the one who told me bluntly that the nicotine is largely lost from liquid to vapor. He would not send the lab results. I asked for them.
I can imagine several scenarios after those results are announced. Mister has one good one. To be a drug product, our drug needs to cause some reaction in our brain or body. Many find that to be the case. Bingo. We're a drug. But if lab tests say otherwise, we're not a drug delivered by a drug product. We're a toy with nice-tasting but ineffective liquid that we convert to vapor for show. Toys aren't as heavily regulated as medical products.
My horse in this race is running along the rail at the rear, waiting for the first turn pileup before deciding what's what.
But I did talk on the phone to a man whose company commissioned lab tests on e-liquid, and he was the one who told me bluntly that the nicotine is largely lost from liquid to vapor. He would not send the lab results. I asked for them.
I can imagine several scenarios after those results are announced. Mister has one good one. To be a drug product, our drug needs to cause some reaction in our brain or body. Many find that to be the case. Bingo. We're a drug. But if lab tests say otherwise, we're not a drug delivered by a drug product. We're a toy with nice-tasting but ineffective liquid that we convert to vapor for show. Toys aren't as heavily regulated as medical products.
My horse in this race is running along the rail at the rear, waiting for the first turn pileup before deciding what's what.
TB, I think all of these recent events are tied together. I don't think that the judges decission is being delayed for something simple. I think that there is a lot of collaboration going on behind the scene. I think they are gathering all the ducks up so that they will have them lined up in a row when the decission is announced. These liberals are slow thinkers but not to be underestimated. Who knows how long it took them to dream up the play book for their first year as rullers of the free world. I just hope we can stop them before they really get us into a fubar.
Gee, someone needs to let exo know the nic he's been retrieving from his vaporizing tests isn't really there. Darn....and all that hassle to collect it, too.
TV, Know just what you mean.
As long as I can keep my snus levels ok, I think I could get by just vaping PG & menthol.
I do enjoy all the hand mechanics that go with vaping and seeing some vapor when exhaling.
The anti's are going to throw everything they can at us and dig up all they can and lie as they have in the past.
We know what is working and what isnt. We know how we feel, be it good or bad.
We have come a long way helping each other.
We dont seem to have a group that represents us. I've seen some that are supposed to be fighting for us, it may be they cant till this SE vs FDA case is resolved. Until a decision is made there's no basis to fight on or against.
As long as I can keep my snus levels ok, I think I could get by just vaping PG & menthol.
I do enjoy all the hand mechanics that go with vaping and seeing some vapor when exhaling.
The anti's are going to throw everything they can at us and dig up all they can and lie as they have in the past.
We know what is working and what isnt. We know how we feel, be it good or bad.
We have come a long way helping each other.
We dont seem to have a group that represents us. I've seen some that are supposed to be fighting for us, it may be they cant till this SE vs FDA case is resolved. Until a decision is made there's no basis to fight on or against.
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Well said DVap, can't let the antis get away with spreading the trollocks.
I think I must be imagining it TC
Still would like more info, if they've made some sort of claim about
little or no nicotine in vapour, they should back it up with the info.
Or perhaps we could asume if they don't 'share' that it is indeed
a load of quadllocks.
I think I must be imagining it TC
Still would like more info, if they've made some sort of claim about
little or no nicotine in vapour, they should back it up with the info.
Or perhaps we could asume if they don't 'share' that it is indeed
a load of quadllocks.
NO ONE IS MAKING A CLAIM.
I'm sorry I even brought it up. Is not the subject of this thread about getting nicotine? I am telling you what I have both read and been told. The test by the guy I spoke with on the phone was on 16mg commercial e-liquid. I have not seen results or questioned how the tests were done, but they were done by a laboratory firm.
When results are publicized, attack them, not the messengers. I swear, we have been shooting ourselves long enough!
If warned ahead of time, we might be able to compile more than "I'm feeling it" anecdotal evidence that will wisp away like dying vapor when compared to lab results.
I'm sorry I even brought it up. Is not the subject of this thread about getting nicotine? I am telling you what I have both read and been told. The test by the guy I spoke with on the phone was on 16mg commercial e-liquid. I have not seen results or questioned how the tests were done, but they were done by a laboratory firm.
When results are publicized, attack them, not the messengers. I swear, we have been shooting ourselves long enough!
If warned ahead of time, we might be able to compile more than "I'm feeling it" anecdotal evidence that will wisp away like dying vapor when compared to lab results.
I think respondents have been indignant at the suggestion of a placebo and certainly not at you, TBob. (I've been cut down like crazy on other forums when I show evidence that GABA or certain other supplements do nothing. While it's very clear in this case we're not just getting a "placebo", people understandably hate the idea that they've been deceived.)
When disagreeing with studies, people do need to remember to criticize methods, not people or motives. That's why I would like to wait and see the data and the detailed methodology.
I agree, we need to marshal the evidence. How can a bunch of geographically-scattered individuals help, though?
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TropicalBob,
"I'm sorry I even brought it up." I'm not sorry you brought it up, I still find it interesting to even think about or that someone suggested it...hmm, guess they haven't tried it.
Now no one shoots TB, we need him
Have a Great Holiday!
"I'm sorry I even brought it up." I'm not sorry you brought it up, I still find it interesting to even think about or that someone suggested it...hmm, guess they haven't tried it.
Now no one shoots TB, we need him
Have a Great Holiday!
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