So - are we getting it or are we not - nicotine

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DVap

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When I did the round 2 WTA extraction, I used 300 grams of tobacco and achieved a yield of 2.5 grams of tobacco alkaloids. Based on what I expected, this probably represents a 50 - 70% yield. There really aren't hard number available on various RYO tobaccos.

I took the purified alkaloids and mixed them up with PG/VG to produce ~80 mL of a 30 mg/mL WTA liquid.

Here is what 300 grams of tobacco looks like, this is the tobacco left over after the alkaloids were extracted, I simply dried it and put it in a container that everyone is familiar with to provide scale:


300gTobacco_gave_2.5g_alkaloids.jpg



A two-liter plastic soda bottle nearly full with 300 grams (10.6 ounces) of extracted tobacco. (Thanks again to Exo for hosting).

If instead of extracting this tobacco, I rolled it up into cigarettes, it would produce around 300 cigarettes.

Now here's the fun part, I believe I got perhaps 70% the alkaloids out of the tobacco. This means that this tobacco originally contained about 3.6 grams of tobacco alkaloids. Due to the roughly 10% efficiency of cigarettes at delivering nicotine and the other tobacco alkaloids, smoking those 15 packs of cigarettes would deliver only 0.36 grams of alkaloids (and a hell of a lot of tar). Meanwhile, I recovered 2.5 grams of alkaloids, and at the ~40% efficiency of vaping, 1 gram of alkaloids would be delivered via vaping the 80 mL of 30 mg/mL WTA liquid.

That's right, vaping this bottle of tobacco, even at a fairly modest 70% alkaloid recovery is still ~2.8X more efficient at delivering the alkaloids (1 gram vs 0.36 gram) as smoking it.

At 2.5 mL/day WTA liquid consumption, the ~80 mL of 30 mg WTA liquid would last 32 days and deliver 30 mg of alkaloids per day (~27 mg nicotine, ~3 mg other alkaloids).

At 3.6 grams of alkaloids divided by 300 cigarettes, each cigarette would contain 12 mg of alkaloids. At 10% efficiency, each cigarette would deliver 1.2 mg of alkaloids. So to get the same daily alkaloid dose (30 mg) from cigarettes as from 2.5 mL of the WTA liquid, one would have to smoke 25 cigarettes per day. The 300 cigarettes would last 12 days compared to 32 days for the WTA liquid.

The implication of this mushrooms when we consider that we would need to smoke ~800 cigarettes to get the same alkaloid delivery as vaping 2.5 mL per day of the 30 mg/mL WTA liquid over a 32 day period.

Harm reduction anybody?
 
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Sevenchan

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I think that I read, too, that L-theanine DOES cross the barrier and GABA taken orally may not?

Why do you believe GABA would possibly curb cravings better, Kina?

hi Kristin,

This is just an interesting factoid, but here in Japan, GABA chocolates "for stress relief" were really popular a couple of years back. They still sell them although the fad has passed:

ƒXƒgƒŒƒXŽÐ‰ï‚Å“¬‚¤‚ ‚È‚½‚ɁBGABAmƒMƒƒƒon

I tried them, noticed no stress relief whatsoever :)
 

frankie1

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I think it is all to do with learned behaviour, my parents smoked and I became fixated by it at a young age.

If it was as simple as that....vaping would suffice. For many vaping DOES suffice, but for some, like me, it just does not completely scratch the itch. And a strong itch it is....for me at least, not to be denied.

I wonder if these alkaloids build up in the brain somehow. It seems many do well initially, but later have undeniable cravings and start white knuckling their way through them or find an alternative or simply go back to smoking, albeit at a much reduced rate.

My experience was to drop to 2-3 smokes per day (down from 30-40), possibly strong physical reaction relieved by smoking, then back to around 8-10 per day. But now I am fighting to not smoke even more than the 1/2 per day. grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
 

exogenesis

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Great stuff DVap, scary thinking of all that tobacco being converted
to smoke & inhaled into the lungs.

So 12 days of smoking that baccy, or 32 days of vaping the WTA,
for the same dosage, hmmm which would I choose :)

And that's including the 40% alkaloid destruction on the coil,
which I wonder if it's possible to do something about.

Satisfaction by delivering *all* the goods,
but still there's that satisfaction gap from delivery speed
(e-juice vs ciggie).

Can't help thinking that an aqueous WTA
(probably of significantly lower strength),
somehow 'imbibed' (piezo mist ecigs?) would be even better.
 

exogenesis

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The plan is to formulate an alkaloid coctail of 8 ingredients:

1 nornicotine (l- & d-)
2 myosmine
3 nicotyrine
4 anabasine
5 anatabine
6 2,3-dipyridyl
7 N-methyl-anabasine
8 N-methyl-anatabine

Nicotine has been omitted, since the new liquid can easily be mixed with anyone's favorite e-juice.

My friend is not comfortable with adding any ingredients not naturally occuring in tobacco (as DVap wisely stated).

But here's the problem: she says the link (short list) & pdf (humungous list) only provided the proportions for some of the alkaloids.

Does anyone have this information?

And am I correct in assuming that these are indeed the alkaloids of highest concentration (next to Nicotine) in tobacco? Sorry, I couldn't find the post that I originally got the list from.

Thanks,

Rick.

Post was #569:
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...we-getting-we-not-nicotine-57.html#post737131

Alkaloid levels in commercial tobacco products, in milligrams per gram:
nicotine, 6.5 to 17.5
nornicotine, 0.14 to 0.66
anabasine, 0.008 to 0.030
anatabine, 0.065 to 0.27
Doing a web search will surely reveal more values, for the full 'real' info
someone might have to purchase some papers though.
 

kristin

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The implication of this mushrooms when we consider that we would need to smoke ~800 cigarettes to get the same alkaloid delivery as vaping 2.5 mL per day of the 30 mg/mL WTA liquid over a 32 day period.

Harm reduction anybody?
Not only harm reduction, but economic, as well - if the extraction can be done efficiently. You get far more yield of the stuff we WANT from the tobacco this way. It's like only needing to buy a pack of cigarettes a MONTH vs. a pack day.
 
Not only harm reduction, but economic, as well - if the extraction can be done efficiently. You get far more yield of the stuff we WANT from the tobacco this way. It's like only needing to buy a pack of cigarettes a MONTH vs. a pack day.

Exaggerating a little there !
 
Not seeing the exaggeration at all, kin.

80 mL of 30 mg WTA liquid would last plenty of folks a month, and the analog alternative is about a pack and a quarter a day.

I guess I see the meaning now.

The imortant thing is that the e-cig is about 2.5x more efficient at nic delivery. But lags behind an inhaler by another ~2.5x.
 
"Excretion of nicotine and cotinine was similar in all tobacco users, but excretion of anabasine, anatabine and nornicotine was substantially greater in urine of smokeless tobacco users, presumably due to absence of pyrolysis of these alkaloids in smokeless tobacco products."

Gas chromatographic-mass spectrometric method for ... [J Chromatogr. 1993] - PubMed result

This fits with the lower BPs I noted yesterday. And suggests that WTA could have an enhanced ratio of these minor alkaloids over that in smoke.

~~~

For reference:

F1.medium.gif
 
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TWISTED VICTOR

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Hey, kristin, great to see you in the neighborhood. I'm an avid follower of your articles and the thought crossed my mind that you'd be interested in this particular thread, unfortunately, my mental alertness seems to drift easily these days :(. kin, I wish I could read as fast as you research and post. Being absent a few days and reading the new posts, there's many that I'd like to comment on or ask questions about. Too many stacked up, but, I suspect they'll come around again, so I'll try to stay on the ball :(. Dvap, I think your last picture should be a posterchild for safer alternatives :thumb:. Currently, I sleep with a picture of your WTA under my pillow :). IANAN, I'm still following and your diet seems to be working. Interesting, but seeing the effort you've put forth I'm thinking I'd like to continue my carefree lifestyle :D. Wow! All catagories apply well in my case, but of particular interest to me are GI and axiety. I've finally started eating prunes. It works and I'd recommend it to anyone who doesn't mind having all body waste converted to liquid. The real catch is to keep your .... cheeks clinched all day (the girls at work think I've been working out ;)). Just don't fart....not kidding, here :oops:. In regard to axiety, kin has brought up GABA in the past and, following his leads, I think I'm gonna give it a shot. If the good outweighs the bad I'll probably give OTD a "wake-up" nudge. Also, I see a coffee addiction in your future. Nothing wrong with that, Grandma got me hooked when I was 4 or 5 and nobody's hauled me off, yet....well, not for that, anyway:(. So keep posting and I'll keep reading:thumb:. Anyway, I'll take my seat, again.
 

TWISTED VICTOR

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Hey, Vaporer, you're looking svelt these days. I have some questions I'd like to direct to you, but I should probably wait until after round #2. Wanted to say "Hey", though.

kin, can you explain this:~~~

btw, The ability of GABA to alleviate cravings is worthy of note in its own right. no need for the patentable vinyl form used in the study; real GABA would almost certainly do the same, without taking a chance with vinyl toxicity.
__________________
Maybe I'm not comprehending right now ( ok, still) but, when you say "real GABA" you're talking about the off-the-shelf stuff at "Judy's Healthy Life" or wherever, right? Mind spinning....(easy, boy)....trying to understand....(clinch).....
 

Elf

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Okay, so I posted a few days ago how a few years ago I worked for a biomedical company that was developing treatment protocols for alcohol and .... addiction, and about the 3 week re-treatment for .... users.

I can also say that besides the actual treatment and drug delivery to "reset" the limbic system that was causing cravings on a primal level, there was much talk about the aftercare and certain supplements that should be taken during this time to assist the breaking of the dependency. GABA was indeed one of these much talked about supplements, for what its worth.
 

kristin

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I guess I see the meaning now.

The imortant thing is that the e-cig is about 2.5x more efficient at nic delivery. But lags behind an inhaler by another ~2.5x.

I may not understand it completely, but, with the additional alkaloids to help, maybe people wouldn't need as much nicotine anyway?

Hey, kristin, great to see you in the neighborhood. I'm an avid follower of your articles and the thought crossed my mind that you'd be interested in this particular thread, unfortunately, my mental alertness seems to drift easily these days :(.

Hi Twisted & thanks! A few people have brought this thread to my attentyion, but with everything going on with CASAA and seeing the sheer volume of posts, it took me a while to find the time to read it and catch up. I didn't want to be one of those who read 2-3 pages and then post something that was answered/discussed on page 63! LOL

Okay, so I posted a few days ago how a few years ago I worked for a biomedical company that was developing treatment protocols for alcohol and .... addiction, and about the 3 week re-treatment for .... users.

I can also say that besides the actual treatment and drug delivery to "reset" the limbic system that was causing cravings on a primal level, there was much talk about the aftercare and certain supplements that should be taken during this time to assist the breaking of the dependency. GABA was indeed one of these much talked about supplements, for what its worth.

That is goood to hear! I got some SoBe Blackberry Grape Lifewater and Gatorade Tiger for my husband. We're starting there with the L-theanine. There isn't a GNC or anything in Antigo, but I'll be in Milwaukee tomorrow and Friday and hope to stop and get some GABA.

He also started suplimenting with snus, since I finally gave my blessing on it, lol. He was definitely more chipper today! :D
 

Kurt

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Boiling Points (or decomposition) of alkaloids of interest

anabasine: vapable, bp:136C
anatabine: vapable, bp:145C; dark yellow, orange brown color when oxidised
myosmine: vapable, bp:82C

cotinine: vapable, bp:250C

(nicotine: bp:247C)

(not sure, but harman and norharman might be around 260C)

The actual bp of the mix with a glycol would be lower (but complex); in short, though many alkaloids decompose before boiling (or even melting), the key ones to us are vapable.

So seems still on the right lines :)

~~~

Of note: MAOIs dramatically affect withdrawal period too

Elsevier

Sorry to be away so much of late. Way too much work...thank God for the nic!

BPs for these pure substances are missleading in the context of vaping a mostly PG or VG solution of them. The boiling of these vehicles themselves will push these into the gas phase. Each of those tiny droplets we call vapor are in fact solutions of nic in PG or VG. Its like a big person getting caught up in a stampeding crowd of midgets (no offense to the big people or midgets out there! :rolleyes:). Everything is flying off of the surface of the juice as it boils. Sure, large high bp molecules will be more likely to be left behind than VG or PG molecules, but there will be plenty in the vapor. And if they are an oil at room temp, and miscible with PG or VG, even more so, no matter the bp. Clove oil (eugenol) has a high bp, but you can make it vaporize along with ethanol (bp 78 C).

If it dissolves, it will more than likely vape, at least to some extent. And adding water or vodka to the juice lowers its bp a lot. Molecules do not have to feel the temp of their bp's to go into the gas phase. This is why I refer to PG and VG as the vehicle.
 
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