So - are we getting it or are we not - nicotine

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TWISTED VICTOR

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TV, I'm loaded for the trip. 2 mods (901 & 510, 1 extra atty ea.) 7 batteries, charger, 60ml liquid, Stonewall Java and my snus assortment. I should be good for a few days. lol

Thunder should consider a white portion, unless I've missed it. I'm still at a loss as to why it doesnt take my head off @17mg. Since I can get by ok on 12 mg liquid and normally vape 18-24mg nic. I dont get the hiccups either and Stonewall, even broken in 1/2 can put me in them in 3 min @ 2.25mg(1/2).
One thing for sure is if I dont look over and see my PV, I'll forget abt it for a long time.
Oh, just an overnight bag :lol:. Ya know, I can't figure out the Thunder, either. These 02's I'm stuck on are 13mg and seem perfect for the long haul. I think my next order I'll throw in a can of the Thunder big boys, but the nic I get from the 02's leaves me good for 2 hours. Not sure I'd like anything higher......and I normally vape 36-48. Well, I did. Not vaping enough now to see a drop in the liquid level. Was probably a bad time the place that 100mg 500ml order, huh :rolleyes:?
 

a2dcovert

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Oh, just an overnight bag :lol:. Ya know, I can't figure out the Thunder, either. These 02's I'm stuck on are 13mg and seem perfect for the long haul. I think my next order I'll throw in a can of the Thunder big boys, but the nic I get from the 02's leaves me good for 2 hours. Not sure I'd like anything higher......and I normally vape 36-48. Well, I did. Not vaping enough now to see a drop in the liquid level. Was probably a bad time the place that 100mg 500ml order, huh :rolleyes:?

I'll take that 500ml of 100mg. That would last me a long time. Course, I'd have to cut it. That'd be 2l of 25mg.
 

TWISTED VICTOR

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I'll take that 500ml of 100mg. That would last me a long time. Course, I'd have to cut it. That'd be 2l of 25mg.
Oowww, and I got a 1 liter jug of VG coming along to keep it company, too ;). Chris at MFS was having a 50% off sale on unflavored liquids and I lost my mind.....interested? .......Before I need to come up with a full explanation for my wife? ....:D.
 

exogenesis

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Bob, exactly.

I have to dissect the sucker step by step. The initial extraction of 10 grams of tobacco (theoretically there will be around 200 mg of alkaloids available) requires 150 mL of solvent to get back 110 mL of solvent, so immediately, we're losing a bit more than a quarter of the available alkaloids. I asked myself if using 200 mL of solvent would help. If I did this, I'd get back 160 mL of the 200 used, so I'd improve from losing 27% of the available alkaloids to losing 20% of the available alkaloids. Considering the high price of the solvent, this was not worth the additional solvent cost.

This is the sort of stuff I have to work out. In the end, it gave me a table for the extraction of 10 grams of well-ground NAS Organic tobacco:

50 mL solvent: 80% loss (40 mg alkaloids/200 mg recovered)
100 mL solvent: 40% loss (120 mg alkaloids/200 mg recovered)
150 mL solvent: 27% loss (146 mg alkaloids/200 mg recovered)
200 mL solvent: 20% loss (160 mg alkaloids/200 mg recovered)
250 mL solvent: 16% loss (168 mg alkaloids/200 mg recovered)

Considering the high solvent cost, I figured the point of diminishing returns was around 150 mL. The really surprising thing I found was that these numbers represent simply draining the solvent from the tobacco. Additional heroics like trying to squeeze out the tobacco to get more solvent only yield 5 - 6 mL extra, while forcing gunk out that makes life harder later on in the procedure.

I then had to rethink the table. What if I added 40 mL of solvent after all the solvent that could initially be gotten out was recovered. Since I know that 10 grams of the organic NAS will hold onto 40 mL of solvent, this additional solvent addition to the tobacco would allow me to recover half of what was left behind in the tobacco. Now the table looks like this:

50 mL + 40 mL solvent: 40% loss (120 mg alkaloids/200 mg recovered)
100 mL + 40 mL solvent: 20% loss (160 mg alkaloids/200 mg recovered)
150 mL + 40 mL solvent: 13% loss (174 mg alkaloids/200 mg recovered)
200 mL + 40 mL solvent: 10% loss (180 mg alkaloids/200 mg recovered)
250 mL + 40 mL solvent: 8% loss (194 mg alkaloids/200 mg recovered)

In this case, the extra volume is worth using, and with multiple solvent additions, a total of 190 mL of solvent achieves better recovery than a single addition at 250 mL. Multiple extractions generally do this for you, but you've gotta run the numbers and consider material costs at the same time to see if it's worth the effort or not.

Lately I've been dealing with the emulsion that forms during the preliminary cleanup of the initial tobacco extract.

When I'm working with this issue, I typically inspect it, and do any of a number of things to overcome the emulsion... each of which is tucked away in my "bag of tricks" gathered over many years.

When I consider what I'd tell someone else to do about it, I find that I can't, there's just too much experience that can't be simply described. So, I simply have to use a pretty rigorous "salting out" procedure, test that it works for the materials being used, and then describe how to do it.

This is why I've so far put 40 grams of NAS Organic tobacco to the task. Every time I come across something that could cause someone a problem, I have to come up with a sure-fire solution. So far, I'm on round 4, and every time I guess wrong about what action to take, I have to start over since I can't undo my dead-ends.

Even when I finally get it all worked out, more than a few will take one look at the procedure, and say, "I'll stick with the snus".

Great series of data, I like the attention to perfection :)

Looking at your table, is the criterion actually minimum solvent per mg alkaloids
(with a minimum sensible yield) ?
I'm assuming that the high cost of 'residue' or 'hplc' grade solvent make this so.

Seems to me you get best results (with above criterion) at 50ml + 40ml,
i.e. 120 mg alkaloids for 90 ml solvent = 1.33 mg per ml solvent,
rather than 150ml + 40ml i.e. 174mg for 190ml solvent = 0.9 mg per ml.

Assuming the tobacco is vastly cheaper than the solvent, presumably
you can waste some tobacco (alkaloids) rather than use 'excess' solvent ?

Is 40 ml the miniumum 'treatment' volume, or could you do 3 x 30 ml ?

Does the emulsion get less of a problem with larger volumes of solvent,
or is it a constant quantity ?

Questions, questions, as always :)
 

a2dcovert

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I got 250ml of the 100mg. To good a price to pass up.
I had to get a couple of the disposeable 901's lol
I can see mod written on them and "not so disposeable" with all the parts I have. :lol:

I'm still hoping for a good flavoring of Virgina or Burley. Havent tried Flavorart yet.

I've been very satisfied with the Seedmans flavors. I can make a Virginia better than Detang.
 

TWISTED VICTOR

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I'm in, let me know what I need to do. How much you are willing to get rid of and so forth.
I'd be willing to part with the sealed jug if you want it at my cost. The VG also. Like V said, it was too good to pass up and my eyes popped out when I saw the price. American made, ya know. At that point everything is a blur. Wife's gonna kill me. OTD says I can rent a room from him for a ml a day. Probably be in the mail tomorrow, so I'll be on my way to the west coast by sometime after that.....providing I can walk with a 500ml bottle stuck up my ... :(.
 

four2109

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Can you use tobacco in the soak the way you are doing with the snus? I have been craving a cigarette for days, and I know I would smoke the whole pack. I hit 8 months on Tuesday... hopefully. I've smoked about 7 in that time, but haven't bought any. By New Years my not smoked count should be 10,000, so I really don't care about 7-8 analogs in that time. I hate to mess with Camel snus but have not ordered any yet. It just got really bad this week. Tis the season... I'm dripping 36 now and the store finally closed so I won't buy tonight, but if I do, could I soak the tobacco and vape it, I mean, I know I could, but with the same result as with snus? Thoughts? Thanks
Edit afterthought.... ...I understand Dvap is using American Spirit for his work, so what is the advantage to using snus? Cost?
 
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TWISTED VICTOR

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Can you use tobacco in the soak the way you are doing with the snus? I have been craving a cigarette for days, and I know I would smoke the whole pack. I hit 8 months on Tuesday... hopefully. I've smoked about 7 in that time, but haven't bought any. By New Years my not smoked count should be 10,000, so I really don't care about 7-8 analogs in that time. I hate to mess with Camel snus but have not ordered any yet. It just got really bad this week. Tis the season... I'm dripping 36 now and the store finally closed so I won't buy tonight, but if I do, could I soak the tobacco and vape it, I mean, I know I could, but with the same result as with snus? Thoughts? Thanks
Edit afterthought.... ...I understand Dvap is using American Spirit for his work, so what is the advantage to using snus? Cost?
Bare knuckle syndrome, huh? I know how that feels. The tobacco soak method DVap is working on will yield the alkaloids (that are left out of regular e-liquids) that are making us turn inside out with a craving that no nic level can satisfy. The NAS brand is the one he's found that gives the most yield without imposing a lot of the nasty stuff we don't want. That's still a work in progress, not the typical extractions you see posted elsewhere on the forum. The snus soak is best for flavoring, but isn't too efficient at anything in the way of alkaloids or nicotine. The best option at the present is the use of traditional Swedish snus used as intended. The American variety just isn't up to the job. American and Swedish snus are worlds apart in their ability to keep an addict from smoking. I was in your shoes until I tried it, now I don't even care to vape, motivation is back to normal and I've emerged from the dark, crave-driven world I was living in only a few weeks ago. Stay with this thread and also spend some time in the Smokeless Tobacco forum here. Relief is obtainable without the use of smoke. And incase you're wondering, the snus we refer to is spitless, nobody even knows you're using it :).
 

Vaporer

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42109, you're in good company here.
For a quick fix you should be able to buy some Camel snus locally. Marlboro is being tested there too. I live in a very rural area but found many of the Quik Stop(type)/truck stop gas stations have it. You have to ask since they keep it in a cooler. Tastewize I'd get the Frost. You can also ask for Discreet brand.
If it doesnt work, taking the edge off using like you should, you'll get less from trying to soak and vape it with the method we have now. Might take you a few to get caught up if thats what you are low on causing the problem. That will let you know quicker than vaping it for now.

Granted the Swedish has more punch, but the American might be enough and it will at least let you know where you are. Any relief is better than no relief especially if its right down the road.
 
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