Sore throat when switching to e salt nic?

[Vapntime]

@Topwater Elvis mate you are really struggling nicotine and benzoic acid react to form a different chemical i.e nicotine benzoate. It ceases to be nicotine and benzoic acid at that point. The 100mg/ml is the strength of nicotine benzoate not freebase nicotine.

 

[Mrez]

there are a lot of places that sell nic salts in low levels, I vaped 3mg nic salts from verdict vapor
find a better vendor
the higher nic salts are really more for pod devices where you are going to vape less but still get enough nic in your system.

That seems to be the direction I'll need to go. The device I have for the Esalts isn't a pod, but it isn't a subohm monster either. It's meant to hit coils between .8- and 2 ohms. I'm building coils for it in the 1.5 range and firing at 3.9 -4.2 volts. It's like the middle point of a pod and higher wattage device

 

[Shadav]

That seems to be the direction I'll need to go. The device I have for the Esalts isn't a pod, but it isn't a subohm monster either. It's meant to hit coils between .8- and 2 ohms. I'm building coils for it in the 1.5 range and firing at 3.9 -4.2 volts. It's like the middle point of a pod and higher wattage device

freebase and salt can be used in any system it doesn't matter the only thing to watch out for is yes sub-ohming a high nic salt (but really even a high nic freebase would be bad, but usually the throat punch would get to you first) as you can easily over nic yourself before you realize it.
I use nic salts in my rda .15ohm but only at 25w, there again though I use 6mg or less

the other thing that could be a problem is the pg/vg levels are you vaping a different ratio than you did with freebase? or it could just be a bad batch of nic... too many variables....
if you want to find places that sell lower levels of nic salts let me know and I can point you to a few places, as well as others can suggest some also

 

[Topwater Elvis]

@Topwater Elvis mate you are really struggling nicotine and benzoic acid react to form a different chemical i.e nicotine benzoate. It ceases to be nicotine and benzoic acid at that point. The 100mg/ml is the strength of nicotine benzoate not freebase nicotine.

No sir, I am not, but thanks for the concern.

You're being ridiculous, thats like saying an egg ceases to be an egg when mixed with cheese and the mixture is cooked.
Or whiskey's molecular structure magically and permanently changes when mixed with coke.

If you were to have either analyzed at a lab the result would clearly demonstrate the various compounds can be easily separated and accurately measured.
That goes for any chemical compound mixtures & compositions no matter how processed or refined, each component that makes up the compound being tested can be broken down into all the base pieces which then can be individually identified and measured.

1mg/ml nic = 1mg/ml nic.

 

[Jebbn]

No sir, I am not, but thanks for the concern.

You're being ridiculous, thats like saying an egg ceases to be an egg when mixed with cheese and the mixture is cooked.
Or whiskey's molecular structure magically and permanently changes when mixed with coke.

If you were to have either analyzed at a lab the result would clearly demonstrate the various compounds can be easily separated and accurately measured.
That goes for any chemical compound mixtures & compositions no matter how processed or refined, each component that makes up the compound being tested can be broken down into all the base pieces which then can be individually identified and measured.

1mg/ml nic = 1mg/ml nic.

I think, for example, if you mixed a 3mg freebase nic brew with a 3mg nic salts brew the combined mixture would be nic salts.
Egg and cheese cooked together is egg and cheese, not egg. And once a lone egg is cooked it isnt and can never be the egg it was before it was cooked.
If you were to mix whiskey and coke and then separate the various compounds etc, you wouldnt technically end up with whiskey and coke. You cant separate the the mix to be the original ingredients.
Whiskey and coke is whiskey and coke, not whiskey, you changed it, you cant undo it.

 

[Topwater Elvis]

Okay, so my analogy failed & further confused the conversation.

During analysis either example can be & is broken down into the base elements and those individual elements can be easily defined & measured by themselves.
Analysis will reveal every single detail of the composition, will identify and measure all the various amino acids, fats, etc, the complete chemical composition of the egg and be able to determine the same for the cheese.

Analyzation of the whiskey & coke will reveal every detail of the composition of the whiskey separate from the coke. What base ingredient were used, type of wood barrel, age, proof etc and give an accurate measure of each ingredient it contains. Same goes for the coke every detail of the sugar, flavorings, carbonation and water used will be identified & measured.

Same goes for e liquid, every minute detail of each ingredient can be and is identified & measured.

How do you think anyone ever became aware of flavorings that contain diketones ( diacetyl, acetyl propionyl and acetoin).

Thats right,,, laboratory analysis - able to separate identify & accurately measure infinitesimal amounts of various chemical compounds contained in a single component which is made up from any amount of ingredients.
Each separated identified and measured.

Are you saying for some mysterious reason lab analysis and common units of measure do not apply to nic salts...
Or nic salts is a unique totally stand alone chemical, the only one on the planet that cannot be analyzed & measured using the same techniques as everything else...
Or, When measured uses its own unique units of measure that is completely different than any other chemical on the planet...

A bottle of finished freebase nic marked 3mg/ml contains 3 milligrams of nicotine per milliliter.
A bottle of finished nic salts marked 3mg/ml contains 3 milligrams of nicotine per milliliter.

If you're a car guy maybe I should've used octane as an analogy.
90 octane is 90 octane no matter the base stock, blend or even when combined with ethanol. You can add all the lubricity or buffering agents you care to.
No matter how you slice it or analyze it. 90 = 90.
Because the 90 octane rating is the unit of measure that defines how much octane is in a specified volume of fuel.

Same for e liquid 3mg/ml = 3mg/ml.

 

[Brewdawg1181]

It seems that faster absorption rate of nic salts is not just hype. You'll find this stated on nic manufacturer's websites, and virtually everywhere these days. But just because it's often stated, of course, doesn't make it true. Everyone has seen PAX Lab's test charts, and I don't believe they're BS. They're obviously doing something right, and people aren't buying them because of an arcane chart in patent applications.

Here's a study that although it's measuring only Blu's lactate vs freebase, it looks pretty definitive. And according to Juul's numbers, benzoate had a faster absorption than other forms of salts.

Note: Compare the 25mg freebase vs. the 25mg salt in the chart I forgot to post, and can't post in an edit. You'll see it when you click the link. Looks like even though Blu's lactate formula isn't know for the quick buzz Juul's benzoate gives, it's still showing 3 times the measured nic in the bloodstream at the 4 minute mark.

A randomised, open-label, cross-over clinical study to evaluate the pharmacokinetic profiles of cigarettes and e-cigarettes with nicotine salt formulations in US adult smokers

I tried one type of nic salt in my diy, (Nic River's Hit version - they won't say which version it is), and I absolutely felt it in my system faster, even at the same strength. I didn't care for it, because I like TH, but it was not my imagination. And I do use a Juul from time to time, and have mixed various strengths of salt/fb to try.

I get what you're saying Topwater - there's not be-all/end-all study proving it yet, but they are different chemicals, and it's reasonable to believe the different form can be absorbed more quickly. And synergists do exist. Based on what I've seen & felt, I believe salts are faster absorbed. However, I mostly prefer freebase- I don't need the quick hit.

 

[englishmick]

@Topwater Elvis mate you are really struggling nicotine and benzoic acid react to form a different chemical i.e nicotine benzoate. It ceases to be nicotine and benzoic acid at that point. The 100mg/ml is the strength of nicotine benzoate not freebase nicotine.

I'll make up some random numbers to simplify a question. 1ml of 100mg/ml freebase might contain 100 molecules of nicotine. But 1ml of 100mg/ml salt might only contain 50 molecules of nicotine benzoate because the individual NB molecules are twice as heavy. Is that what you are suggesting here? It's an interesting thought.

Are the manufacturers calculating the nicotine concentration (mg/ml) that way? Or are they calculating the concentration in some way that reflects the number of nicotine molecules?

And do we know how much difference in weight there is between the two molecules? If the difference is insignificant then it doesn't matter much.

 

[vapdivrr]

And I thought salt nic was just salt added to regular ejuice..[emoji102] personally love these back and forth posts about molecules and such, I dont understand one freaken bit of it, but it's pretty neat . There are some pretty smart folks here on ecf.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

 

[bombastinator]

And I thought salt nic was just salt added to regular ejuice..[emoji102] personally love these back and forth posts about molecules and such, I dont understand one freaken bit of it, but it's pretty neat . There are some pretty smart folks here on ecf.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

Surprisingly close. It’s any number of acids added to regular juice to create a different chemical.

 

[Brewdawg1181]

Here's that chart. Looks like lactic based is 3x as fast into the system as freebase.
Isn't it odd that most people are really increasing their nic content with salts? I mean, I get it if you're going from a big DL setup to a pod, but some of the newer pods produce a lot more vapor than a little Juul.

 

[Coyote628]

Ive found no real difference between salt and freebase as far as vaping it is concerned. I vape commercial juices and DIY. I use salt nic in my DIY. And i vape low nic at low resistance and high nic at high resistance. The way youre supposed to. Doesnt matter if its salt or freebase. Holy crap, people are overthinking this issue way too much. Takes the enjoyment out of vaping when you try to analyze every aspect of it. Just find a level that works for you and vape it. Problem solved. Or so you would think. In the end nicotine is nicotine, if you are having negative effects you are probably vaping too much nicotine. Salt aint got nothin to do with it.

 

[bombastinator]

Ive found no real difference between salt and freebase as far as vaping it is concerned. I vape commercial juices and DIY. I use salt nic in my DIY. And i vape low nic at low resistance and high nic at high resistance. The way youre supposed to. Doesnt matter if its salt or freebase. Holy crap, people are overthinking this issue way too much. Takes the enjoyment out of vaping when you try to analyze every aspect of it. Just find a level that works for you and vape it. Problem solved. Or so you would think. In the end nicotine is nicotine, if you are having negative effects you are probably vaping too much nicotine. Salt aint got nothin to do with it.

So you’re saying “don’t over thing chemicals. They’re just stuff”. Yeah, I don’t think that’s the way it works.

It’s a bit like a “perception is reality” argument I saw around here earlier. Your perception of something doesn’t affect what it actually does except in opinion.

 

[sorrynomore]

I gave nic-salts a try a little bit ago as I heard it was supposed to be a smoother vape compared to freebase.I bought some (36mg if I remember correctly),I thinned it to the 6mg.that I'm accustomed to with freebase.

FOR ME...I experienced the opposite,nic-salts made me cough alot and irritated my throat.After I finished off the salts that I had I went back to freebase.
Maybe I was allergic to something in the batch I bought or whatever BUT for ME it wasn't as smooth as freebase.

 

[Jebbn]

I have a couple of different 100mg nic salts. VG based.
I was curious about nic salts so bought a couple from different suppliers.
In hindsight it was a mistake to buy so much of each. Turns out I prefer the taste and affects of freebase, I only use 2-4mg mixes anyway, but, I was curious.
I experimented with 24mg NS in comparison to 24mg freebase and down to 3mg NS vs 3mg f/b.
One of the NS has a slight taste I dont like. Ive tried other batches from the same distributor and it also has the taste. Reminds me of being at the dentist when I was a kid, Im guessing it is benzoic acid.
Both NS's taste different to each other and to the freebase vaped unflavoured and if I use with flavours the difference in tastes is still there.
If I vape lower dose nic salts exclusively I get quite a lot of phlegm and a bit tight in the chest, I dont experience that with freebase. Im more likely to cough with nic salts particularly after an extended vape session, I seldom cough with freebase even after a good long session.
As far as nic hit and affects, I experience freebase and nic salts a bit differently. It maybe a subtle thing but for me freebase is more satisfying, a slightly heavier hit at the same mg's. I feel like freebase takes a few puffs more to get going but once hit I stay satiated longer and can put down the vape and get on with things. With nic salts I can feel it taking hold but it never feels complete and I find myself returning to the vape for a few quick puffs quite regularly.
The next door neighbour has some unflavoured 100mg nic salts in a PG base from a different distributor on the way so I will try it for taste when it gets here mid next week. Its also benzoic acid based nic salts. Maybe the taste of PG will cancel out the taste of the benzoic acid, or something like that.
I made two batches of juice for a friend using the nic salts and she didnt register much difference in taste or affect from the usual freebase I make her but did mention that there is more vapour than normal, I also experienced more clouds. My main concern with giving her the nic salts after my own experience was she has COPD and I was worried that she might experience the same phlegm "thing". She said she hasnt.
Goes to show how differently we all experience the same things.

 

[United States]

100?!?!

 

[Jebbn]

100?!?!

If thats a reference to my post and 100mg .
I buy all my nic in 100mg and mix batches of what ever mg I vape, which is 3mg today.
I dont buy store bought flavours, mainly because I vape unflavoured @ 2-4mg

 

[Brewdawg1181]

Ive found no real difference between salt and freebase as far as vaping it is concerned. I vape commercial juices and DIY. I use salt nic in my DIY. And i vape low nic at low resistance and high nic at high resistance. The way youre supposed to. Doesnt matter if its salt or freebase. Holy crap, people are overthinking this issue way too much. Takes the enjoyment out of vaping when you try to analyze every aspect of it. Just find a level that works for you and vape it. Problem solved. Or so you would think. In the end nicotine is nicotine, if you are having negative effects you are probably vaping too much nicotine. Salt aint got nothin to do with it.

We all have our opinions. I don't think any of us are choosing our nic based solely on reading up on its chemistry. Some of us enjoy learning, and even sharing what we've learned, and that's not a bad thing. I wouldn't call it overthinking. But it's really hard to believe that you can't tell a difference. It must make diy easy if everything tastes the same. At least you're doing things "the way you're supposed to." Come to think of it, thinking you're supposed to vape either one in a certain way might be considered overthinking it.

Like Jebbn and many others have said, I find them vastly different in taste, mouthfeel, throat hit, lung tolerance, and effect. And I prefer freebase - possibly only because it's what I got used to. I only tried salts for a couple of reasons: to see if it'd reduce my post-lunch mid afternoon chain vaping, and to see if it made pods more satisfying. Didn't really work on either account.

 

[Nikhforos]

Okay, so my analogy failed & further confused the conversation.

During analysis either example can be & is broken down into the base elements and those individual elements can be easily defined & measured by themselves.
Analysis will reveal every single detail of the composition, will identify and measure all the various amino acids, fats, etc, the complete chemical composition of the egg and be able to determine the same for the cheese.

Analyzation of the whiskey & coke will reveal every detail of the composition of the whiskey separate from the coke. What base ingredient were used, type of wood barrel, age, proof etc and give an accurate measure of each ingredient it contains. Same goes for the coke every detail of the sugar, flavorings, carbonation and water used will be identified & measured.

Same goes for e liquid, every minute detail of each ingredient can be and is identified & measured.

How do you think anyone ever became aware of flavorings that contain diketones ( diacetyl, acetyl propionyl and acetoin).

Thats right,,, laboratory analysis - able to separate identify & accurately measure infinitesimal amounts of various chemical compounds contained in a single component which is made up from any amount of ingredients.
Each separated identified and measured.

Are you saying for some mysterious reason lab analysis and common units of measure do not apply to nic salts...
Or nic salts is a unique totally stand alone chemical, the only one on the planet that cannot be analyzed & measured using the same techniques as everything else...
Or, When measured uses its own unique units of measure that is completely different than any other chemical on the planet...

A bottle of finished freebase nic marked 3mg/ml contains 3 milligrams of nicotine per milliliter.
A bottle of finished nic salts marked 3mg/ml contains 3 milligrams of nicotine per milliliter.

If you're a car guy maybe I should've used octane as an analogy.
90 octane is 90 octane no matter the base stock, blend or even when combined with ethanol. You can add all the lubricity or buffering agents you care to.
No matter how you slice it or analyze it. 90 = 90.
Because the 90 octane rating is the unit of measure that defines how much octane is in a specified volume of fuel.

Same for e liquid 3mg/ml = 3mg/ml.

I get the point. What they are saying is that 3mg/ml salts that are marked as so where created after using 3 mg of nic per ml of eliquid. What the producer used for the mix is NOT what the mix will always contain though. And no, you can't always seperate the ingredients out of a chemical compound. The law of conservation of mass states that mass in a system is neither created nor destroyed by chemical reactions or physical transformations. According to the law of conservation of mass, the mass of the products in a chemical reaction must equal the mass of the reactants, as long as the system is isolated which in our case, is not.

 

[United States]

If thats a reference to my post and 100mg .
I buy all my nic in 100mg and mix batches of what ever mg I vape, which is 3mg today.
I dont buy store bought flavours, mainly because I vape unflavoured @ 2-4mg

Gotcha.

I saw you buy 100mg nic salts and figured perhaps there's some super-juice out there for those suicidal sub-ohm you tubers....

Yeah, a DIY 3 salt sounds pretty good.