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If these SS wicks were gassing noxious fumes, wouldn't one notice neg side effects with the lungs? I started with Silica,cotton & now SS & my lungs have steadily improved. actually, Quite a lot. Proof is in the pudding? BTW, alum cans were shown many years go that they leach toxins & few listened.
Good stuff budy
I am inclined to the think that a wet, properly functioning SS wick is of zero concern. What seems to be of concern is what we do it it before we start using it, as the oxide layer/black powder will get into juice and possibly ride the vapor into our lungs. What you're doing (juice burns only) would seem a lot safer then what I'm doing (oxidizing the .... out of it with a torch), but I'm not sure, hence my post above
As far as proof in the pudding goes, to an extent this is true, but things don't always work that way. Chronic exposure to small amounts of a toxic stimulus can take a long while to show negative effects, so the fact that we feel nothing in the acute doesn't really mean much necessarily.
And in this case I believe we're most worried about the carcinogenic effects of Cr (VI) which would take possibly decades to be an issue or manifest as objective pathophysiology or symptoms; I don't know much about the acute effects but even if they don't happen to a given individual its irrelevant to the former point.
I am inclined to the think that a wet, properly functioning SS wick is of zero concern. What seems to be of concern is what we do it it before we start using it, as the oxide layer/black powder will get into juice and possibly ride the vapor into our lungs. What you're doing (juice burns only) would seem a lot safer then what I'm doing (oxidizing the .... out of it with a torch), but I'm not sure, hence my post above
As far as proof in the pudding goes, to an extent this is true, but things don't always work that way. Chronic exposure to small amounts of a toxic stimulus can take a long while to show negative effects, so the fact that we feel nothing in the acute doesn't really mean much necessarily.
And in this case I believe we're most worried about the carcinogenic effects of Cr (VI) which would take possibly decades to be an issue or manifest as objective pathophysiology or symptoms; I don't know much about the acute effects but even if they don't happen to a given individual its irrelevant to the former point.
Point well taken but as a auto body & before that industrial coatings specialist, one would feel the effects of toxic fumes immediately. I would think any out gassing from ss would be felt pretty rapidly. When I was very young I started out in a fabricating shop & welding with certain alloys would make me sick on the same day. I don't like the thought of using black wick (of any kind) so I just boil it good & roll it up. Without proper tests we are guessing but my best guess is 200F (the SS is probably much cooler)is probably safe but if it is not, I certainly want to know. Good thread.
Budy so when you juice burn do mean build a coil and drip on it and fire until shorts go away?
No. I do juice burn on the wick before it goes in the coil. Then I install coil & dry burn to adjust any hot spots. I then drip on the installed wick (empty tank)& fire coil further checking for any hotspots. Then, still with empty tank I wet installed wick & do some vaping. If it tastes good I then fill tank & vape. I earlier did a new coil/wick & didn't even juice burn the wick. I rolled a smaller diameter wick coil so I could run atty with fill screw in which stops build up in cap & drain back into the tank. This prevents darkening of the juice while drastically reducing juice usage but still getting great taste & lots of vapor. No wick prep at all. I've been vping this set up for couple hrs & the flavor & vapor production are steadily improving while the color of juice is the same as when filled. I have played with the aga-t (tweaked it some)for a week today & I have it 'dialed' in. I'm one happy vaper. I need to add, I stopped winding the coil with drill bit in tank. I wrap coil round bit outside tank which gives rounder coil (ala PetarK instaed of spiral.
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LOL... 'Just analyze the dust'. That made me laugh. I know what that dust is, it's mostly chromium oxides. That's why they call it "Oxidizing a wick"
The wicks were just heated, one in a oven and others with the torch method to different temperatures.
We tested a 10mL 70/30 PG/VG solution that the wicks had been soaking in for a week for the presence of CR. The tests can be found in any Undergraduate Chemistry book. If you are interested I suggest you go to the local university and ask if they will lend you a chemistry professor.
I am one person doing a very small sample and doing worst case scenarios. If you know a chemist please ask them to do a test for you.
It's not fumes in this case. You might want to read this to get an idea of what is possible. Reaction of chromium(VI) with glutathione or with hydrogen peroxide: identification of reactive intermediates and their role in chromium(VI)-induced DNA damage.
Your instincts are good. I'm not concerned with CR fumes it's CR particles coming off the SS mesh after it has been heated to above 800deg F that are troubling. Those particles could be inhaled using the vapor as a carrier. I don't want to describe what happens in the lungs when CRVI is inhaled. If you are curious look it up. I will say that this stuff is so nasty the exposure limit in liquids is 0.02 parts per billion per liter.
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While I don't have any interest in SS mesh wicks, I do find this interesting because I use nichrome wire. While this may stray from the topic slightly, this topic does seem to have some relevance to the standard choice of resistance wire as well.
When I originally researched nichrome about a year ago, I found it to be difficult to determine just what the oxidation layer would be comprised of. Most sources stated that chromium oxide, being the more stable oxide formed from the alloy, would be the outer layer. There seem to be a dizzying array of chromium oxides, though, and apparently the more complex ones are known to be hazardous.
I've since found this reference:
NiChrome - Nickel Chromium Alloys
From the above link: "Oxidation resistance can be attributed to the formation of a highly adherent protective scale. The adherence and coherence of the scale can be improved by the addition of small amounts of other reactive elements such as zirconium, silicon, cerium, calcium or similar. The scale thus formed is a mixture of nickel and chrome oxides (NiO and Cr2O3). These combine to form nickel chromite (NiCr2O4), which has a spinel-type structure."
This indicates that the two main oxides end up forming nickel chromite (NiCr2O4), which has some fairly strong risk statements, as do NiO and Cr2O3 individually, according to these:
http://www.chemicalbook.com/ProductChemicalPropertiesCB5110542_EN.htm
http://www.chemicalbook.com/ProductChemicalPropertiesCB8394705_EN.htm
http://www.chemicalbook.com/ProductChemicalPropertiesCB3677696_EN.htm
That said, it makes me wonder if the SS mesh ends up forming something like Cr2FeO4, which I can't find much info on. I know very little about chemistry, so I can't say if other elements from the steel can combine in such a way.
Anyway, I guess I'll be monitoring this thread, and looking into any health implications that resistance wire may have as well. I think that any oxides coming off of the much smaller resistance wire would be minute amounts, and the temperatures reached under normal use would hopefully mitigate the risks, but I don't know how much that might be compared to the amounts used in the study that I read in the chromium oxide link above, or even if nickel chromite would be more prevalent in the passivisation layer...
When I originally researched nichrome about a year ago, I found it to be difficult to determine just what the oxidation layer would be comprised of. Most sources stated that chromium oxide, being the more stable oxide formed from the alloy, would be the outer layer. There seem to be a dizzying array of chromium oxides, though, and apparently the more complex ones are known to be hazardous.
I've since found this reference:
NiChrome - Nickel Chromium Alloys
From the above link: "Oxidation resistance can be attributed to the formation of a highly adherent protective scale. The adherence and coherence of the scale can be improved by the addition of small amounts of other reactive elements such as zirconium, silicon, cerium, calcium or similar. The scale thus formed is a mixture of nickel and chrome oxides (NiO and Cr2O3). These combine to form nickel chromite (NiCr2O4), which has a spinel-type structure."
This indicates that the two main oxides end up forming nickel chromite (NiCr2O4), which has some fairly strong risk statements, as do NiO and Cr2O3 individually, according to these:
http://www.chemicalbook.com/ProductChemicalPropertiesCB5110542_EN.htm
http://www.chemicalbook.com/ProductChemicalPropertiesCB8394705_EN.htm
http://www.chemicalbook.com/ProductChemicalPropertiesCB3677696_EN.htm
That said, it makes me wonder if the SS mesh ends up forming something like Cr2FeO4, which I can't find much info on. I know very little about chemistry, so I can't say if other elements from the steel can combine in such a way.
Anyway, I guess I'll be monitoring this thread, and looking into any health implications that resistance wire may have as well. I think that any oxides coming off of the much smaller resistance wire would be minute amounts, and the temperatures reached under normal use would hopefully mitigate the risks, but I don't know how much that might be compared to the amounts used in the study that I read in the chromium oxide link above, or even if nickel chromite would be more prevalent in the passivisation layer...
As a child I chewed on pencils and other items with lead laced paint.
My bedroom was sprayed every night with Flit (DDT) to kill the mosquitoes.
I would break thermometers open to get the mercury and rub it on dimes to make them shiny.
I drank water most of my life that came thru copper pipes soldered together.
My mother didn't kill me giving me castor oil monthly for a good cleaning and raw egg yolks to grow.
Tin cans for vegetables and soups were soldered.
I smoked over two packs a day for more than 50 years and in the 60's smoked some other stuff also.
A few years ago I decide to clean up my life and started vaping.
Then it turns out silica wicks can kill me.
Now SS wicks can kill me.
Probably the ceramic hard wicks can kill me.
Thankfully I found hemp wicks, kind of like an old man returning to his youth and it didn't kill me in the 60's.
Enough, enough, it was hard enough to reach 70.
My bedroom was sprayed every night with Flit (DDT) to kill the mosquitoes.
I would break thermometers open to get the mercury and rub it on dimes to make them shiny.
I drank water most of my life that came thru copper pipes soldered together.
My mother didn't kill me giving me castor oil monthly for a good cleaning and raw egg yolks to grow.
Tin cans for vegetables and soups were soldered.
I smoked over two packs a day for more than 50 years and in the 60's smoked some other stuff also.
A few years ago I decide to clean up my life and started vaping.
Then it turns out silica wicks can kill me.
Now SS wicks can kill me.
Probably the ceramic hard wicks can kill me.
Thankfully I found hemp wicks, kind of like an old man returning to his youth and it didn't kill me in the 60's.
Enough, enough, it was hard enough to reach 70.
As a child I chewed on pencils and other items with lead laced paint.
My bedroom was sprayed every night with Flit (DDT) to kill the mosquitoes.
I would break thermometers open to get the mercury and rub it on dimes to make them shiny.
I drank water most of my life that came thru copper pipes soldered together.
My mother didn't kill me giving me castor oil monthly for a good cleaning and raw egg yolks to grow.
Tin cans for vegetables and soups were soldered.
I smoked over two packs a day for more than 50 years and in the 60's smoked some other stuff also.
A few years ago I decide to clean up my life and started vaping.
Then it turns out silica wicks can kill me.
Now SS wicks can kill me.
Probably the ceramic hard wicks can kill me.
Thankfully I found hemp wicks, kind of like an old man returning to his youth and it didn't kill me in the 60's.
Enough, enough, it was hard enough to reach 70.
How can a silica wick kill, are you eating them?
point taken... it's all relative
Heck, I should have died a dozen times in this life, working with explosives, electricity, chemicals... I'll probably die in some tragically ironic rocking chair accident.
I don't know much about the oxide formation in a nickel chromium chemistry.
I'll do some reading and get back to you. edit: There should be no difference between Nichrome and Kanthal when looking at CR oxide formation.
The temperature that the resistance wire reaches in use is far too low to cause higher oxide states. If someone was to "dry burn" a coil to red hot then they would cause a higher order oxide to form. Is this a issue?.... we don't know.
Are the higher order oxides stable in the presence of nicotine which loves to bond with oxygen?... we don't know.
It would be seriously ironic if the nicotine was protecting us. Strangely enough it is possible.
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Hey Boden , great thread. So now I am paranoid about my existing wicks
Do you think if I cleaned them in an ultrasonic cleaner it would get rid of the offending particles?
Do you think if I cleaned them in an ultrasonic cleaner it would get rid of the offending particles?
The Kanthal wires are extremely oxidation resistant even at temperatures near their melting point of 1500 C. These wires are composed of mostly iron, with some chromium (approx. 20%) and aluminum (approx. 5-6%). As this wire is heated up above 1000 C (1830 F), it becomes covered with the thermodynamically most stable oxide. Since aluminum oxide Al2O3 is more thermodynamically stable that either chromium oxide or iron oxide, a layer of aluminum oxide forms on the surface of this wire. Aluminum oxide provides unique oxidation resistance to alloys at high temperatures. The oxide layer on Nichrome alloys indeed consists mainly of chromium dioxide. This layer evaporates more easily than the tighter oxide layer on the Kanthal alloys.
Great stuff Ulmer, thank you. Should I sleep a bit more soundly as I only use Kanthal?
Atlantis, I understand your concern, I threw all my wicks out and am rolling unoxidized or cotton hybrid from now on, not worth the risk for me
Atlantis, I understand your concern, I threw all my wicks out and am rolling unoxidized or cotton hybrid from now on, not worth the risk for me
Cyrus thanks for the comments but surely you are still creating oxidization under the coil other wise it wouldn't work so its just a smaller part of the wick but it is still being oxidized . Also what about dry burns to clean your coil, how will these be done without creating oxidization under the coil? This news is very important and surely needs to have more exposure than just in a thread with 4 pages worth of posts!
Hey atlantis
What I did was build the coil on a drill bit, take a fresh SS wick, no flame, nothing, and roll it so it went through with minimal friction. The coil is touching the mesh at all points, not seeing any air, but barely touching. I guess you could call this a petar K method without any lighter burn for 'cleaning'
Then I juiced the coil and started pulsing. At first only the top coil was producing vapor, so I kept juicing and wiggled the coils a couch and eventually they all started to produce evenly, but kept everything juiced while doing so. Put the cap on, filled and started vaping. I did taste some finger funk from handling the mesh wick but that went away rapidly. I tried to avoid, and was successful in avoiding, any coil glowing because at this point I just don't trust any of it, even if its not hot enough to get the mesh glowing.
So I'm assuming their is either some juice oxide hanging out under the coils (something I'm less worried about) or the contact between the coils and mesh is so 'gentle' that its just not conducting
and for dry burning the wick comes out without any fuss so I plan on just removing it, dry burning and reinserting
What I did was build the coil on a drill bit, take a fresh SS wick, no flame, nothing, and roll it so it went through with minimal friction. The coil is touching the mesh at all points, not seeing any air, but barely touching. I guess you could call this a petar K method without any lighter burn for 'cleaning'
Then I juiced the coil and started pulsing. At first only the top coil was producing vapor, so I kept juicing and wiggled the coils a couch and eventually they all started to produce evenly, but kept everything juiced while doing so. Put the cap on, filled and started vaping. I did taste some finger funk from handling the mesh wick but that went away rapidly. I tried to avoid, and was successful in avoiding, any coil glowing because at this point I just don't trust any of it, even if its not hot enough to get the mesh glowing.
So I'm assuming their is either some juice oxide hanging out under the coils (something I'm less worried about) or the contact between the coils and mesh is so 'gentle' that its just not conducting
and for dry burning the wick comes out without any fuss so I plan on just removing it, dry burning and reinserting
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