Statement from Totally Wicked

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oldsoldier

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ECFs official position would have to come from SJ or Rolygate and to be honest I'm not sure that publishing ECF position on UK libel laws is productive in the long run.

Here are my personal thoughts as to why:

ECF is hosted in the US-- but EC Forum Limited is a UK company and subject to British Law. SJ and Roly are British subjects so even if the company were to be moved to the US they would still be under British law as agents of the company-- just because they are British.

Sometimes site owners just need to choose their battles wisely, some are not worth the time and effort. Fighting the UK libel laws would likely just turn into a money and time pit and detract from ECFs Mission, which is to be a world class family friendly E-cigarette information resource.
 

CommaHolly

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I agree that the British laws in this regard "need" update,,,,,but of course, I'm an American, raised as such, and I might be simply thinking as an American,,,,,I've been to the UK numerous times, and their laws always seemed decent and logical to me,,,,,,,so I'm a bit shocked that anyone with a bit of money can bring a libel suit and the oness is on the defendent to prove their innocence.
 

ableton

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I think the "fracture" (if you want to call it that) was already there...

I see TW (forum primarily) as like a different aspect of the e-cig community on the whole, sort of like an off-shoot, maybe somewhat akin to a cult...

People who associate with the TW forum are surely aware that any dissenters are not allowed there, so it becomes more of a TW products only appreciation club, rather than e-cigs in general...

The love of vaping is still there of course! :)

A cult? Why because they perhaps feel more at home there? TW appreciation club? LOL.

Generalisation is not cool in my book.

It could be perceived you are ridiculing the TW forum users. Remember they are all innocent in this mess. Saying that the discord was already there speaks volumes.

Maybe, just maybe, people have different viewpoints. That to me is what makes this world interesting :)

Peace.
 

teamscon

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no idea what you were talking about in that long lawyer ripoff post. I never ordered from totally wicked because I could tell there was something wrong there. Everything looked too nice .. And prices were higher for their devil stamps on products.

Just not for me, would have never ordered from them anyways.
 
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Toby

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A cult? Why because they perhaps feel more at home there? TW appreciation club? LOL.

Generalisation is not cool in my book.

It could be perceived you are ridiculing the TW forum users. Remember they are all innocent in this mess. Saying that the discord was already there speaks volumes.

To be clear, I am not ridiculing any TW forum users; it was just an observation - "maybe somewhat akin to a cult"...

And it is a TW appreciation club because any e-cigs that are not TW, are not allowed to be discussed there.

I don't know what you are referring to as "discord" either...
.. more like a different faction.. you know, how religions have different churches.. it doesn't mean they can't get along... ;)
 

lassep

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Well thank god, i never liked their prices or their rediculous bad E-juice. Now i have yet another excuse and maybe the best one yet to never buy anything from Totally wicked.. <- That sir is a name of 1.000.000 different things! Please do not sue our forums, we may have to open a new one and we are all out of good domains!
 

malcop

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I agree that the British laws in this regard "need" update,,,,,but of course, I'm an American, raised as such, and I might be simply thinking as an American,,,,,I've been to the UK numerous times, and their laws always seemed decent and logical to me,,,,,,,so I'm a bit shocked that anyone with a bit of money can bring a libel suit and the oness is on the defendent to prove their innocence.
Can we get this right guys no libel suit was issued.
 

b3ast1e

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A cult? Why because they perhaps feel more at home there? TW appreciation club? LOL.

Generalisation is not cool in my book.

It could be perceived you are ridiculing the TW forum users. Remember they are all innocent in this mess. Saying that the discord was already there speaks volumes.

Maybe, just maybe, people have different viewpoints. That to me is what makes this world interesting :)

Peace.
I was a member of TW for the first 3 months or so, I can vouch for what Toby's saying. It's a vendor forum, it has strict house rules. Most of us end up looking for wider horizons, spread our wings, want to make lots of links between the cessation of a habit that's blighted our lives, and a new one that's made kicking it seem such a pleasure for once. But on top of all of that is this additional layer; JC is not like other vendor CEOs, he's all over it like a wet dress, it's his baby from the ground up - I think perhaps he might imagine himself the vaping world's Richard Branson, a guy who similarly takes something that already exists in abundance, rebrands it and gives it a cultish spin.

It's only my opinion Ableton, but you have been corrected a number of times on this thread, having made a few incorrect assumptions. Perhaps, in an eagerness to play the devil's advocate, you're just plain reading it wrong? Just a thought.
 

asha23

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To be clear, I am not ridiculing any TW forum users; it was just an observation - "maybe somewhat akin to a cult"...

And it is a TW appreciation club because any e-cigs that are not TW, are not allowed to be discussed there.

I don't know what you are referring to as "discord" either...
.. more like a different faction.. you know, how religions have different churches.. it doesn't mean they can't get along... ;)

I went over there. Had a look.

I soon left.
 
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asha23

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Well thank god, i never liked their prices or their rediculous bad E-juice. Now i have yet another excuse and maybe the best one yet to never buy anything from Totally wicked.. <- That sir is a name of 1.000.000 different things! Please do not sue our forums, we may have to open a new one and we are all out of good domains!

You can't say "Rediculous bad E-juice"... What you can say is... "Amazing E-juice"...
 
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b3ast1e

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I have a good friend who's a solicitor and would be only too happy to write me a letter to send to my neighbours about their crazy Leylandii hogging all the sunlight in my south facing garden and buckling the fence - "Our client has given us instructions in the matter pertaining to your crazy Leylandii..." etc etc etc. Pfft.
 

rolygate

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...................

My question is more along the lines of how does ECF feel about the concept of these things being considered libel.

I guess it is hard to untangle the opinion from the law of the land. And I guess it seems the law of the land in this respect has very critical differences.

I am coming to the conclusion that the laws relating to libel in the UK are in serious need of update.

Actually ECF doesn't really differentiate between the various local implications of discussion issues, it would be too difficult for us to do as we are global.

In practice, what we do is place a "Would you really say or do that if you were standing face to face with the other person?" limitation on members. To be frank, a lot of issues are caused by 'web bravery', and just wouldn't exist if people were talking face to face. It's true that a certain amount more freedom than is available in the physical world can be useful, but there is a limit. You might call it moderation; we would probably call it realism. You can see what the consequences are if people are given free reign to go as far as they like.

So here, direct insults are not allowed; defamatory statements that cannot be seen immediately to be true are not allowed. On the other hand, negative reviews of products are allowed, because people have a right to know if something is being over-hyped. The vendor can respond if they wish.

We therefore run what could be called a 'reasonable discussion' policy: nothing that a sensible and reasonable person would consider unacceptable generally gets past the Moderators, although they can't be everywhere at once. If we are notified of material that someone finds unacceptable then it gets looked at. Sometimes it is removed, sometimes it isn't - it has to pass the tests just outlined.

Because we operate a 'reasonableness' policy; because we can call on the resources (of all types) needed if necessary; and because ultimately it would not be to their benefit; vendors with some sort of an issue prefer to talk with us rather than attack us.

Another factor that people should consider is the growing number of commercial disputes in the ecig arena. Many problems can be traced back to that as the cause. It's certainly a major issue for us, because the majority of serious adversarial communications we see are based on this problem, in one way or another. It used to be member issues; that has all changed now and commercial disputes or similar issues are the main cause of friction. Although the eternal triangle of the membership-forum-vendors will always figure strongly, vendor vs vendor disputes of one kind or another are increasing rapidly.

But forum owners need to recognise that in the modern world they are performing a balancing act, and if it goes wrong, there are consequences. It's a very difficult juggling act indeed, some days. Supplying a service to one group means that, of necessity, another is disadvantaged; pleasing one person alienates someone else. You can't please all the people all the time. Assuming you get it right most of the time, though, it makes it hard for any one person or group to claim they have been injured.

This is the web, and a forum is the right place for free and frank discussion. There is a line beyond which people shouldn't go however, just as they wouldn't in more physical circumstances. That principle is universal and it doesn't matter what country it is applied to. When things get heated, we call upon our skilled jugglers, aka Mods, and just hope they get it right.

:)
 

ableton

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I was a member of TW for the first 3 months or so, I can vouch for what Toby's saying. It's a vendor forum, it has strict house rules. Most of us end up looking for wider horizons, spread our wings, want to make lots of links between the cessation of a habit that's blighted our lives, and a new one that's made kicking it seem such a pleasure for once. But on top of all of that is this additional layer; JC is not like other vendor CEOs, he's all over it like a wet dress, it's his baby from the ground up - I think perhaps he might imagine himself the vaping world's Richard Branson, a guy who similarly takes something that already exists in abundance, rebrands it and gives it a cultish spin.

It's only my opinion Ableton, but you have been corrected a number of times on this thread, having made a few incorrect assumptions. Perhaps, in an eagerness to play the devil's advocate, you're just plain reading it wrong? Just a thought.

The fact that you was a member of TW is neither here or there apart from the fact that you established an opinion. Your opinion. You talk about strict rules yet this Forum is no different. Whilst you are of course entitled to your opinion of JC how would it be if the tables were turned? I am of course entitled to my own opinion.

No I'm not reading it wrong.

It seems perfectly OK for some on here to criticise TW it's forum and claiming they are a cult. Yet any mention of the ECITA and/or questioning of their ethics, the part they played in this mess, the accusations made against them from TW appears to be frowned on.

And corrected on what? The exact location of a document on the web. pMsl.
 
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