SXmini M Class (TEMP CONTROL)

[druckle]

If they could produce products of the same quality as other countries, why don't they? My hypotheses is that the cheap labor allows them to build three to get one right.

My industry is a bit different then e-cigs, but the Chinese product is bottom of the barrel. They are great at mass production, but not making a lasting product. They are willing to replace but not improve.

Many industries began before the industrial revolution. At that time, building something well was a must. It would take too much time to build another if the first went bad. China didn't experience that. They bought the machines to stamp out the products. So they came into the business in a different way. They need to limit the amount of metal in an item, or limit the amount of labor. Or use cheaper metal.

One example with the SX mini is the finish... Why not use a more durable finish? That's one consistency I've seen in Chinese anodizing/finishing. It's constantly bad.

Now, it's very unlikely an American company could make it cheaper. But, I can guarantee they could make it better. The problem is that once they do they Chinese will knock it off and sell a clone. That's why they deserve the same.

I would recommend you do NOT buy an Sx 350 M class. A Vapor Shark dna 40 would likely suit you better....oh wait those are made in China. Go Vapor Flask. The dna 40 board has earned quite a reputation and it's American.

 

[RebelGolfer72]

Quantum, The problem is if you are applying 20 watts to the same coil that you were using at 20 watts with a single battery device you are also pulling 20 watts from the series batteries. Nothing is free. The higher voltage is only required to obtain the the higher wattage they claim the unit is capable of. If you are not running above 50-60 watts the second battery is just along for the ride.

You can not have mAh without voltage. So whatever the wattage is in the coil that is the wattage being pulled from the batteries.

Gosh I hate this - mark my words unless someone finds an appropriate document explaining this phenomenon the debate will go on for ever.

You are mostly correct in your reasoning, but there is a little correction to be made.

It is true that power (watts) in = power (watts) out. Watts = volts x amps.
To make the math simple, let's assume we are firing a coil at 16 watts, and the batteries we are using are at 4v. The coil is a 1Ω coil, and the board is 100% efficient (no loss of power... Not going to happen, but it makes the math simple)
So on the output side of the board, we are using 16w (assume a 1 ohm coil, it's seeing 4v, and pulling 4a). These devices change the wattage by varying the voltage into the read resistance load. So to deliver that, the input side of the board also needs to draw 16w. If you have 1 battery, you have 4v available, and you would pull 4A. If your batteries are in series, you would have 8V available, but would only be drawing 2A. (4*4=16, 2*8=16). No matter what voltage the input is seeing, has no bearing on what the output is seeing, since we didn't change the coil.

So I believe you were on the right track, and had the right idea, but your statement assumed that the coil changed.

Now if it was a mech mod, where the batteries were directly connected to the coil, then doubling the voltage would not affect the current draw, as the wattage would double as the voltage was doubled

 

[2legsshrt]

I would recommend you do NOT buy an Sx 350 M class. A Vapor Shark Dna 40 would likely suit you better....oh wait those are made in China. Go Vapor Flask. The Dna 40 board has earned quite a reputation and it's American.

Your right there the DNA40 has earned quite a reputation.

 

[HolmanGT]

.


This is where I am going wrong then as I am seeing half amperage & expecting half wattage to be drawn

Quantum,

Not really so wrong if you did pull half the current thru the coil the could mean the voltage was also halved. No problem with that except it you like a 20 watt vape a 10 watt vape may be a little on the lean side.

Seriously - I am going to search this and I will most definitely post back if I am able to find a reasonable explanation. Actually I will post back even if I fail.

 

[dannyben]

OK - Danny,

I took your first paragraph a little insulting. I am fairly well versed in electronics for one and not only did I suggest googling the subject I also gave a link that put the answer in layman's terms. To suggest that I don't have the proper facts takes a real leap on your part I have been working in the electrical engineering field for over fifty years. Now that the casual insult is out of the way...

I would still like to direct you to look up information regarding the advantages of putting batteries in series. It can be relatively simple or if you feel like digging it can also get very technical very fast. Putting the batteries in series is only done to be capable of outputting the the claimed wattage. With one battery you do not have enough voltage to out put 150/200 watts into the coil. That is the only reason it is done. Again if you found my suggestion to look the subject up if you did the searches you said and have yet to come up with a satisfactory solution can you imaging how long this post would get if I tried to explain a topic that the professional Tech Writers have trouble with some of these topics.

As far as the series batteries being used in a Mod, flashlight, or whatever has absolutely nothing to do with the underlying electrical principles. The batteries have absolutely no idea what they are putting power to nor does the principles that govern series vs parallel operation care.

A fact is that using batteries in series is of no advantage whatsoever if you are driving the same coil you used on your SXmini at lets say 20 watts. Yes your are still providing 20 watts from the two series batteries and yes at a half the amperage but at twice the voltage. To the coil you provide half the amperage and twice the voltage from the the DC to DC converter. Amps X Volts = wattage i.e. nothing has changed. Two batteries in series act like one higher voltage battery with the same mAh as a single battery. Tow batteries in parallel act like one battery with twice the current capability (or twice the mAh capability). I am not a Tech Writer so if this sounds convoluted then I will suggest again you do your best to look up an explanation that makes sense to you. If you choose to believe this is some kind of cop-out on my part because I don't have the background and knowledge to say what I am saying I would suggest you check my on-line profile to determine what I may and may not know that is your privilege.

This post is already quite long and I am very sure I have not convinced you of anything. Which is why I said I would rather not debate this. There are two things working against us 1) Everyone that bought the unit because it has two batteries and believed it will give them better battery life will not want to believe what I am saying; 2) Unless one is willing to search and study the subject and determine the electrical principles involved all the online debates will only confuse the issue and probably start a "Donnybrook".

I will close by telling you I will search this issue in an attempt to find a reasonable explanation by folks that write technical articles for a living.

I in no means meant this to be insulting, and apologize if it came off that way. Actually value your opinion. My use of the term "debate" was not in reference to you, but people who chime in to the topic with nothing more then "I read it somewhere" or "a friend told me." I am far from an battery / electrical expert and simply was looking for a correct answer to this issue. There have been so many posts that contradict each other (on ECF as well as all over the internet), and here even now two very compelling and opposite takes. I am simply curious as to which is correct.... for a regulated mod that is. And how do all the people who have been using the "battle axe" sxtube claim to be getting additional battery time? Or is it a placebo effect?

 

[footbag]

I would recommend you do NOT buy an Sx 350 M class. A Vapor Shark Dna 40 would likely suit you better....oh wait those are made in China. Go Vapor Flask. The Dna 40 board has earned quite a reputation and it's American.

Unfortunately, it's the form factor that I like with the SX mini. I had considered just buying a DNA 40 chip and putting it in my clone, but I want a small-ish mod.

 

[Quantum Mech]

Quantum,

Not really so wrong if you did pull half the current thru the coil the could mean the voltage was also halved. No problem with that except it you like a 20 watt vape a 10 watt vape may be a little on the lean side.

Seriously - I am going to search this and I will most definitely post back if I am able to find a reasonable explanation. Actually I will post back even if I fail.

Think that would benefit from its own thread mate

But don't forget to tag me in it as I don't want to miss it

Will bug me now until I do understand or something else turns up that wont sink in

Oh the joys of an inquisitive mind

 

[dannyben]

You are mostly correct in your reasoning, but there is a little correction to be made.

It is true that power (watts) in = power (watts) out. Watts = volts x amps.
To make the math simple, let's assume we are firing a coil at 16 watts, and the batteries we are using are at 4v. The coil is a 1Ω coil, and the board is 100% efficient (no loss of power... Not going to happen, but it makes the math simple)
So on the output side of the board, we are using 16w (assume a 1 ohm coil, it's seeing 4v, and pulling 4a). These devices change the wattage by varying the voltage into the read resistance load. So to deliver that, the input side of the board also needs to draw 16w. If you have 1 battery, you have 4v available, and you would pull 4A. If your batteries are in series, you would have 8V available, but would only be drawing 2A. (4*4=16, 2*8=16). No matter what voltage the input is seeing, has no bearing on what the output is seeing, since we didn't change the coil.

So I believe you were on the right track, and had the right idea, but your statement assumed that the coil changed.

Now if it was a mech mod, where the batteries were directly connected to the coil, then doubling the voltage would not affect the current draw, as the wattage would double as the voltage was doubled

Thanks for that explanation. So is this is fact meaning, what @Quantum Mech and I thought, that the sxtube, for instance, on the sxmini will double the battery life -- given the same exact conditions?

 

[Quantum Mech]

You are mostly correct in your reasoning, but there is a little correction to be made.

It is true that power (watts) in = power (watts) out. Watts = volts x amps.
To make the math simple, let's assume we are firing a coil at 16 watts, and the batteries we are using are at 4v. The coil is a 1Ω coil, and the board is 100% efficient (no loss of power... Not going to happen, but it makes the math simple)
So on the output side of the board, we are using 16w (assume a 1 ohm coil, it's seeing 4v, and pulling 4a). These devices change the wattage by varying the voltage into the read resistance load. So to deliver that, the input side of the board also needs to draw 16w. If you have 1 battery, you have 4v available, and you would pull 4A. If your batteries are in series, you would have 8V available, but would only be drawing 2A. (4*4=16, 2*8=16). No matter what voltage the input is seeing, has no bearing on what the output is seeing, since we didn't change the coil.

So I believe you were on the right track, and had the right idea, but your statement assumed that the coil changed.

Now if it was a mech mod, where the batteries were directly connected to the coil, then doubling the voltage would not affect the current draw, as the wattage would double as the voltage was doubled

So on reading this Rebel

I now get watts in equals watts out statement by HolmanGT

And see the 2A draw at 8v is 2A from each cell even though they are working as one cell

But this is half the amp draw per battery when working alone at 4A

So why does the mAh not increase [double]

George was definitely right in his very earliest of statements on this subject saying not to get involved in this again ....

 

[druckle]

Unfortunately, it's the form factor that I like with the SX mini. I had considered just buying a DNA 40 chip and putting it in my clone, but I want a small-ish mod.

Your comments on the superiority of American products struck me as interesting. I am a retired engineer who spent my working life in a critical American industry where lives were lost by the hundreds if something was not well done. Early in my career it was exhilarating, and exciting to be involved in research and development. Toward the end, our company management tried to force a piece of cheaper, untested technology to be utilized in our product. I was the Manager in charge of trying to make that technology work...(it was a hopeless assignment) and I refused to sign the necessary papers. Had I done so I have no doubt that lives would have been lost..not by ones or twos but by 200 at a time.

Of course you can imagine that I decided to retire early, both because of the tone of the American management and because going to work every day became so unpleasant. Let me assure you this is not a "one off experience". I have direct knowledge of this kind of thinking in American management in more than one industry.

This is NOT your grandfathers American manufacturing environment.

I now evaluate the performance of a product and purchase appropriately. Japan used to make "cheap" when I was a kid. They now produce quality. (Witness Honda, Toyota, Lexus etc.) China is growing out of "cheap" and they have very smart engineers who can do it as well as anyone in the world if they are given managements support. It seems to me their management is following the path followed years ago by the Japanese, and the path that Americans once followed but are now abandoning for the sake of a quick buck.

 

[footbag]

Your comments on the superiority of American products struck me as interesting. I am a retired engineer who spent my working life in a critical American industry where lives were lost by the hundreds if something was not well done. Early in my career it was exhilarating, and exciting to be involved in research and development. Toward the end, our company management tried to force a piece of cheaper, untested technology to be utilized in our product. I was the Manager in charge of trying to make that technology work...(it was a hopeless assignment) and I refused to sign the necessary papers. Had I done so I have no doubt that lives would have been lost..not by ones or twos but by 200 at a time.

Of course you can imagine that I decided to retire early, both because of the tone of the American management and because going to work every day became so unpleasant. Let me assure you this is not a "one off experience". I have direct knowledge of this kind of thinking in American management in more than one industry.

This is NOT your grandfathers American manufacturing environment.

I now evaluate the performance of a product and purchase appropriately. Japan used to make "cheap" when I was a kid. They now produce quality. (Witness Honda, Toyota, Lexus etc.) China is growing out of "cheap" and they have very smart engineers who can do it as well as anyone in the world if they are given managements support. It seems to me their management is following the path followed years ago by the Japanese, and the path that Americans once followed but are now abandoning for the sake of a quick buck.

I was speaking with an engineer for a helicopter company just the other day about Chinese manufacturing. They can't afford to even consider buying Chinese aluminum parts. There is no telling what will show up after they order it. And IME, no product is immune no matter how many lives depend on it.

If your old company wanted to move it's production to China, they could definitely find someone to sign off on those changes. People may die, but at least they're a world away. Congress isn't going to haul in a Chinese plant owner to testify.

But, I do agree that American management is what brought this on. They wanted Cheaper, and that's what China was good at. They just had no idea how cheap it could be made. Some learned, some went out of business. The Chinese unanimously benefited.

Both my Toyota and Lexus were built in the USA. I'll be damned if I ever buy a Chinese car.

 

[PapaPro]

If you are only using 20w, then parallel is the most efficient way as each cell will share the load. In series it will double the voltage but our SXM's will regulate the voltage so you should in theory get more JOULES (hehe) than using a single cell.

If I could chose I would only have a parallel device. I would never need anything more the 25w.

 

[RebelGolfer72]

Thanks for that explanation. So is this is fact meaning, what @Quantum Mech and I thought, that the sxtube, for instance, on the sxmini will double the battery life -- given the same exact conditions?

On paper, yes... Real world, probably not. You have the extra resistance/loss from the extra battery tube and all of the connections. Then there is no saying how much efficiency is lost pushing the board with higher signal. Then how does running the batteries in series affect life in general? More than likely you will see increased battery life with 2 batteries vs 2, however you will see significantly less than double the life

 

[PapaPro]

On paper, yes... Real world, probably not. You have the extra resistance/loss from the extra battery tube and all of the connections. Then there is no saying how much efficiency is lost pushing the board with higher signal. Then how does running the batteries in series affect life in general? More than likely you will see increased battery life with 2 batteries vs 2, however you will see significantly less than double the life

Yes indeed this is what we found on our dyno tests. We were testing batteries for ebikes. 12v 24v, 36 and 48. Running series did give more milage but using the same AH, parallel was much more efficienty.

Btw, a lot will depend on how well the device regulates the voltage. Or how efficient it is

 

[footbag]

I strongly disagree with the last statement.
Chinese manufacturers have the potential to build with equal quality as manufacturers from any other country. So why do they get a bad rap? Because to get that quality, you would pay as much as you would for something made in another country. China also has the unique advantage to produce items for pennies on the dollar comparatively, and that manufacturing is what people gravitate toward-- in other words, it's why you see so much more of it: people want it cheap!

It's no secret that China leads the world in math testing scores. With that, it only follows that the potential for good engineers is also there. Again, the "WalMart mentality" drives the over saturation of the market place with cheaply made, substandard quality, and reverse engineered (aka "cloned" or better termed "counterfeit") products.

The SX mini is a prime example of top notch engineering and manufacturing. Even John the lead engineer for Evolv commends how well the SX350 board is designed. One look at the SX Mini, and it's easy to see a device that is built as well (and arguably better) than some devices made in the U.S., Germany and other places. You also see a level of customer support that rivals anyone else.

Chinese made products, as with products made elsewhere, if you eliminate the hype factor (I.e. High demand driving prices up), you will get what you paid for.

I think you also misunderstood the point I made about deserving it. The Chinese manufacturers deserve it because they don't abide by copyright law. The clone and copy away. If you have a secret deal with a Chinese manufacturer, he gives your plans to his neighbor.

If they have such good engineers, which I believe they do, then why not develop your own ideas.

Look at CES... The Chinese photographed and cloned stuff before the show was over. That's the industry. Copy and make it cheaper.

 

[RebelGolfer72]

So on reading this Rebel

I now get watts in equals watts out statement by HolmanGT

And see the 2A draw at 8v is 2A from each cell even though they are working as one cell

But this is half the amp draw per battery when working alone at 4A

So why does the mAh not increase [double]

George was definitely right in his very earliest of statements on this subject saying not to get involved in this again ....

Current is consistent throughout the circuit. Batteries in series do not split the current. If your batteries in series are in a circuit drawing 2 amps, BOTH batteries are seeing 2 amps draw not 1+1. For current to be split, the batteries would have to be in parallel

 

[dannyben]

On paper, yes... Real world, probably not. You have the extra resistance/loss from the extra battery tube and all of the connections. Then there is no saying how much efficiency is lost pushing the board with higher signal. Then how does running the batteries in series affect life in general? More than likely you will see increased battery life with 2 batteries vs 2, however you will see significantly less than double the life

Gottcha and thanks again!

 

[Quantum Mech]

On paper, yes... Real world, probably not. You have the extra resistance/loss from the extra battery tube and all of the connections. Then there is no saying how much efficiency is lost pushing the board with higher signal. Then how does running the batteries in series affect life in general? More than likely you will see increased battery life with 2 batteries vs 2, however you will see significantly less than double the life

I best stop now or my head will explode as this starts to look like power factor correction training course

But just to taste the water

With a lower amp draw due to higher voltage would you not get less voltage drop than what you would with a lower voltage drawing more amps

As in amps cause volt drop, volt drop causes amp draw increase which causes further volt drop & on & on until equilibrium is reached with the resistance

Thus another reason you may see better battery life with series

 

[HolmanGT]

I in no means meant this to be insulting, and apologize if it came off that way. Actually value your opinion. My use of the term "debate" was not in reference to you, but people who chime in to the topic with nothing more then "I read it somewhere" or "a friend told me." I am far from an battery / electrical expert and simply was looking for a correct answer to this issue. There have been so many posts that contradict each other (on ECF as well as all over the internet), and here even now two very compelling and opposite takes. I am simply curious as to which is correct.... for a regulated mod that is. And how do all the people who have been using the "battle axe" sxtube claim to be getting additional battery time? Or is it a placebo effect?

Danny,

That's OK... I wasn't really all that insulted I just thought you were categorizing me because I use the excuse of "Look it up". I will tell you that unless you have some electrical experience IT IS NOT AN EASY TOPIC TO SEARCH, that's for sure.

The may be lots of opinions but first let me link to a short and sweat statement on the subject: Series Parallel

I'll admit that it is a simple statement but buy folks that should know.

Now on varying opinions I am sure there is and will be for a very long time. There are some subtleties that can be brought into the debate/conversation that while true do not really effect the outcome of the base discussion. i.e. low current is less lossy than high current which can and does improve battery life and for that matter power loss in wiring and connectors... etc.

I will use one example that is not technical at all:

Vapor Flask 40 watt device: Two 18650s in parallel their claim exceptional battery life. and I personally get at least 2.5 days of use out of one set of batteries (I know a subjective example).

IPV-4 200 watt device: Two 18650s in series their claim 200 watts output.

SXmini M Class with the (Really Ugly) tube extension: Two 18650s in series their claim 150 watts ouput.

Danny, that is about all I can offer at the moment. If i stumble on any more explanations that are a little more in depth I will link them. My personal opinion at the moment is if someone has the motivation to really study this they will find the answers. If someone is running on a subjective opinion and does not want to research the concept... well there is no debate on Earth that is going to change their mind.

Danny, no hard feelings here and I actually wish I had not even broached the subject of (possibly) being offended.

Have a great day and I am going to drop out of this not because I am afraid of the topic but If I don't quit for now I will not get my errands for the day done and I am pretty damm good at putting thinks off as it is.

 

[Quantum Mech]

Current is consistent throughout the circuit. Batteries in series do not split the current. If your batteries in series are in a circuit drawing 2 amps, BOTH batteries are seeing 2 amps draw not 1+1. For current to be split, the batteries would have to be in parallel

Yeah I got that mate

Maybe my wording was wrong