SXmini M Class (TEMP CONTROL)

[Yozhik]

Did you read the entire ruling?

This remains a fundamental rule of federal antitrust law and draws a line between legal independent decision-making on the one hand and illegal joint or monopolistic activity on the other.

Q: I own a small clothing store and the maker of a popular line of clothing recently dropped me as an outlet. I'm sure it's because my competitors complained that I sell below the suggested retail price. The explanation was the manufacturer's policy: its products should not be sold below the suggested retail price, and dealers that do not comply are subject to termination. Is it legal for the manufacturer to cut me off?

A: Yes. The law generally allows a manufacturer to have a policy that its dealers should sell a product above a certain minimum price, and to terminate a dealer that does not honor that policy. Manufacturers may choose to adopt this kind of policy because it encourages dealers to provide full customer service and prevents other dealers, who may not provide full service, from taking away customers and "free riding" on the services provided by other dealers. However, it may be illegal for the manufacturer to drop you if it has an agreement with your competitors to cut you off to help maintain a price they agreed to.

Your claim was that YiHi couldn't set minimum prices and enforce them. This is not true, as generally it has an individual right to set prices however it pleases and terminate supply to anyone who doesn't abide by such prices. Separate from that is when parties collude to set prices, such as if one or more dealers convince a manufacturer to adjust minimum authorized prices or restrict deliveries to hurt another dealer.

 

[Teo]

Your claim was that YiHi couldn't set minimum prices and enforce them. This is not true, as generally it has an individual right to set prices however it pleases and terminate supply to anyone who doesn't abide by such prices. Separate from that is when parties collude to set prices, such as if one or more dealers convince a manufacturer to adjust minimum authorized prices or restrict deliveries to hurt another dealer.

Which Law school did you attend?

 

[jazzvaper]

Which Law school did you attend?

The one that knocks de jure lawyers OFF their pedestal?

 

[Teo]

The one that knocks de jure lawyers OFF their pedestal?

 

[Yozhik]

Which Law school did you attend?

Let's just say the school's unofficial motto is "Where fun comes to die"

 

[Teo]

Interesting, Are you claiming to be a Fellow Brother LEO associate or Brother In-Arms?

 

[TruSound]

YiHi's website: SXmini maker,SXmini,yihisxmini,yihiecigar,sx350,yihi sx350, yihi sx350 mini, yihiecigar sx350 mini, gravity sensor,www.yihisxmini.com,120w device Great way to fully confirm authentic products. But IF they are dictating prices to authorized dealers? Then they will have not only customer loss issues, but Justice Department ones as well! Price fixing in the USA is not only frowned upon, but highly ILLEGAL as well! MSRP is just that, a suggested price point, NOT a final sale of that product!

The justice dept. has much bigger fish to fry, like Apple maybe...but they never will.

 

[Teo]

The justice dept. has much bigger fish to fry, like Apple maybe...but they never will.

Correct! And NOT under this administration!!

 

[Hitcat44]

Bose does exactly that,,, there is an MSRP and they do enforce it with their contracted Retailers/Distributors.
I do not know if they enforce such and require Proof in order to receive Warranty Services as I have owned a Ton of their Stuff and never had any issues with it.
That being said, I am not throwing my Dog into the Fight as I am not a Lawyer nor did I stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

What do you guys think the best resistance is to build. I was thinking of using the 26awg or .4mm 5 wraps 3mm because the 5 wrap coil is easy to place on the STM and using Steam Engine should come out close to .23ohms. With the upgrade what is the final temp and J you guys use. George I know you are using about the same resistance coils as that not sure how many others are.

2legs,,, Sounds like an appropriate Target to me. I am running a 6 wrap 28 GA Ti dual build on my El Cabron and it has settled in right at .22
It's running nicely at 380* F at 30 J. I tried it at 25 and although the Temp didn't fluctuate as much, I prefer the Flavor and Vapor produced at the 30.
When the Lemo 2 arrives (and for my STMs) I plan to build a 5 wrap 26 GA single on 2.5mm ID which should be right at .20. The Lemo,is supposed to be here Monday so will hopefully test and confirm that then.
I plan to start out at the same 380* F and 25 J for the first 20-30 Firings then tweak from there.
It seems to me that the Ti coils have an initial "Curing". Will pay close attention to see if the same Phenomenon occurs again on every new Coil to confirm or if not write it off as an anomalous one-time occurrence.

 

[Yozhik]

Bose does exactly that,,, there is an MSRP and they do enforce it with their contracted Retailers/Distributors.
I do not know if they enforce such and require Proof in order to receive Warranty Services as I have owned a Ton of their Stuff and never had any issues with it.
That being said, I am not throwing my Dog into the Fight as I am not a Lawyer nor did I stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

There's two ways that manufacturers can control pricing. The first is a minimum resale price policy ("MRP"), while the other is a minimum advertised price policy ("MAP"). Under an MRP, the reseller is in breach if it sells below a minimum price. Under a MAP, a reseller can sell at any price, but the manufacturer can terminate its relationship if that sale is advertised below a minimum price. For various reasons, MAPs have pretty much become the dominate form of unilateral price fixing by manufacturers in all sorts of industries.

As to whether you have a warranty, manufacturers can refuse to honor such a warranty if the product was sold by a non-authorized reseller. If an authorized reseller violates a MAP/MRP when selling you a product, you probably still have a warranty (I'd have to research the issue to be sure), but if the manufacturer refuses to honor a valid warranty, litigating it isn't likely worth it. Also, warranties only apply where the product was intended to be sold. So if you obtain a product from a US gray market reseller that was intended for sale in a foreign market, you may have a warranty, but you'll need to ship it to the foreign market for warranty coverage.

 

[2legsshrt]

Bose does exactly that,,, there is an MSRP and they do enforce it with their contracted Retailers/Distributors.
I do not know if they enforce such and require Proof in order to receive Warranty Services as I have owned a Ton of their Stuff and never had any issues with it.
That being said, I am not throwing my Dog into the Fight as I am not a Lawyer nor did I stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.



2legs,,, Sounds like an appropriate Target to me. I am running a 6 wrap 28 GA Ti dual build on my El Cabron and it has settled in right at .22
It's running nicely at 380* F at 30 J. I tried it at 25 and although the Temp didn't fluctuate as much, I prefer the Flavor and Vapor produced at the 30.
When the Lemo 2 arrives (and for my STMs) I plan to build a 5 wrap 26 GA single on 2.5mm ID which should be right at .20. The Lemo,is supposed to be here Monday so will hopefully test and confirm that then.
I plan to start out at the same 380* F and 25 J for the first 20-30 Firings then tweak from there.
It seems to me that the Ti Coils have an initial "Curing". Will pay close attention to see if the same Phenomenon occurs again on every new Coil to confirm or if not write it off as an anomalous one-time occurrence.

That sounds good. I am just undecided about which wire to get the stuff from Sweet Spot Vapor is vacuum annealed and would hopefully not be as springy. With nickel I can hand wrap it on my 3mm coil master and squeeze it together and comes out perfectly spaced but not knowing how this stuff is I'm wondering if it would be better to wind it with the coil master and stretch it of if it will work the way I do with the nickel. I wonder what the lowest resistance setting it will handle with Ti didn't get an answer from Fancy so he she must have Sat off. I know that QM wraps that type of coil 5 wraps 3mm 26awg and likes it really well and he likes a cooler vape like I do.

 

[Hitcat44]

Don't be concerned with the "springy" deal. I was overly dreading that and found it to be really no Biggie at all. Sure it is more so than Kathal and takes a tad longer to "pretty up" and detail but not an issue IMO.

I coiled the first 3 on my trusty old 2.38 mm (3/32") Drill Bit. Should be easier on the Kuro I would think.

 

[Mad Scientist]

There's two ways that manufacturers can control pricing. The first is a minimum resale price policy ("MRP"), while the other is a minimum advertised price policy ("MAP"). Under an MRP, the reseller is in breach if it sells below a minimum price. Under a MAP, a reseller can sell at any price, but the manufacturer can terminate its relationship if that sale is advertised below a minimum price. For various reasons, MAPs have pretty much become the dominate form of unilateral price fixing by manufacturers in all sorts of industries.

As to whether you have a warranty, manufacturers can refuse to honor such a warranty if the product was sold by a non-authorized reseller. If an authorized reseller violates a MAP/MRP when selling you a product, you probably still have a warranty (I'd have to research the issue to be sure), but if the manufacturer refuses to honor a valid warranty, litigating it isn't likely worth it. Also, warranties only apply where the product was intended to be sold. So if you obtain a product from a US gray market reseller that was intended for sale in a foreign market, you may have a warranty, but you'll need to ship it to the foreign market for warranty coverage.

Resale price maintenance (RPM) has been per se unlawful in the United States since 1980 and MAP is still evaluated under a rule of reason standard of review, thus not necessarily always lawful. Maximum pricing has also recently (within the last few decades) been declared per se unlawful.

Whatever this has to do with vaping isn't clear. Carry on.

 

[Yozhik]

Resale price maintenance (RPM) has been per se unlawful in the United States since 1980 and MAP is still evaluated under a rule of reason standard of review, thus not necessarily always lawful. Maximum pricing has also recently (within the last few decades) been declared per se unlawful.

Whatever this has to do with vaping isn't clear. Carry on.

We were discussing it in context of an SX Mini sale, in which someone brought up allegations of price-fixing.

Also, you didn't read the prior posts, in which case you would understand that the Leegin case in 2007 reversed the rule that an MRP (or RPM if you prefer) is a per se violation (which dates back to the 1911 Dr. Miles case). I also gave an example of collusion where it would fail the rule of reason.

 

[Mad Scientist]

We were discussing it in context of an SX Mini sale, in which someone brought up allegations of price-fixing.

Also, you didn't read the prior posts, in which case you would understand that the Leegin case in 2007 reversed the rule that an MRP (or RPM if you prefer) is a per se violation (which dates back to the 1911 Dr. Miles case). I also gave an example of collusion where it would fail the rule of reason.

Did not read prior posts. If not a per se violation, still evaluated under rule of reason. Still has nothing to do with vaping.

 

[Yozhik]

Did not read prior posts. If not a per se violation, still evaluated under rule of reason. Still has nothing to do with vaping.

Yep, absolutely nothing, well . . . except for all the e-cig and e-liquid manufacturers that engage in unilateral pricing policies, but outside of that . . . yes, maybe nothing.

 

[IcyX]

I used 4 strands of sterling silver wire, I think it is 30AWG.

Chatting with Ariel I did the same experiment with the same atty and the same wire. A GG tilemahos and 30ga silver wire. I went a little over board and wrapped the silver wire around the screw terminals six times for a total of 12 strands running from screw post to screw post and came up with the exact same internal resistance of .014 ohms. With high grade silver I don't think I needed to go that crazy one or two wraps would probably have given the same result.

I think it would be a great improvement of the devices ability to control temp if the initial resistance of the coil when locked in is more accurate to the actual coil rather than the coil added to any resistance imposed by the atty. When using builds of ~.065 ohms initial resistance .014 ohms is a high percentage of error.

I also sent an email off to yihi, while not quite as eloquent as Ariels I made the same points. I envisioned a manual entering of the internal resistance after checking in the same way you "lock in" the atomizer. It could be a way to "fine tune" a build. While I don't know the specific algorithm and temp charts yihi uses in their software to determine the temp at which the coil is at, a manually entered value could possibly be used as a "gain" control making the software more or less sensitive to changes in the resistance due to heating of the coil allowing the user to fine tune the device a tad more. A value "sensed" and automatically entered would be easier and give less chance for human error, I do think I would like to be able to adjust it after it is entered however. Good job on that innovation Ariel!

 

[Yozhik]

Chatting with Ariel I did the same experiment with the same atty and the same wire. A GG tilemahos and 30ga silver wire. I went a little over board and wrapped the silver wire around the screw terminals six times for a total of 12 strands running from screw post to screw post and came up with the exact same internal resistance of .014 ohms. With high grade silver I don't think I needed to go that crazy one or two wraps would probably have given the same result.

I think it would be a great improvement of the devices ability to control temp if the initial resistance of the coil when locked in is more accurate to the actual coil rather than the coil added to any resistance imposed by the atty. When using builds of ~.065 ohms initial resistance .014 ohms is a high percentage of error.

I also sent an email off to yihi, while not quite as eloquent as Ariels I made the same points. I envisioned a manual entering of the internal resistance after checking in the same way you "lock in" the atomizer. It could be a way to "fine tune" a build. While I don't know the specific algorithm and temp charts yihi uses in their software to determine the temp at which the coil is at, a manually entered value could possibly be used as a "gain" control making the software more or less sensitive to changes in the resistance due to heating of the coil allowing the user to fine tune the device a tad more. A value "sensed" and automatically entered would be easier and give less chance for human error, I do think I would like to be able to adjust it after it is entered however. Good job on that innovation Ariel!

Part of the problem though is you don't know if that initial static resistance is due to a material whose resistance is thermally sensitive. Thus, even if you program in a static resistance, it might not actually be the case and throw off the TC assumptions.

 

[IcyX]

Part of the problem though is you don't know if that initial static resistance is due to a material whose resistance is thermally sensitive. Thus, even if you program in a static resistance, it might not actually be the case and throw off the TC assumptions.

While that stament could very well be true and more so even in certain cases such as atomizers that use plated alloys, thin sections, or small electrical contact points, and springs. I don't think it applies greatly to the atomizer tested.

The atty I used is the tilemahos v2 which is entirely 303 stainless steel. Every piece including the adjustable contact pin at the bottom, which can be screwed tight or adjusted out to make better contact on some mods (I learned the hard way to keep it screwed tight or you will get a fluctuating resistance reading). The one Ariel used, again a tilemahos has the brass contact pin at the bottom (which was screwed tight and well cleaned) the rest of the atty being completely 303 stainless. Each piece is fairly thick and there is large contact area between parts, it was designed with electrical conductivity in mind for use on a temp control mod that hasn't been released yet by the modder. We both came out with the exact same resistance readings with silver wire one of us using four wraps the other six wraps myself being the latter.

I'm sure there will be some degree of change in the resistance of the atty due to the electrical temp coefficient of stainless however due to the overall amounts of metal used and the amount of contact area between parts of the atty (it's not a cheap sub tank) I think any change in conductivity will be very minor in contrast to the coil which is the element being controlled. Again being able to set the "internal resistance" manually you could fine tune to keep accuracy between atomizers and keep the unit of the "degree" more accurate thoughout the range of allowable temperature settings.

Here is something for thought. Both of us getting the same reading also brings up the question is it the atty that added the resistance or the mod? Would some of you care to repeat this with other atomizers and compare results? I would be very interested to see what others come up with on different atomizers with silver wire on the sxm. As I get time I will try it with some of my other atomizers to see what I find.

 

[herb]

Come on YiHi, penalize the dealer not the customer...that's just dumb.

I agree 100% , thats just wrong .