SXmini M Class (TEMP CONTROL)

[dam718]

I'll try the 28 on the Lemo 2 when it gets here. As good as this Subtank is performing right now, I don't wanna mess with it... Haha

Maybe I'll do a build with the 28 on the KFL and see how that does. The KFL doesn't have a build in it right now.

Unless you're looking specifically for a comparison of the two wire sizes on the Subtank Mini rba? The KFL will obviously be a much different experience since it's more of a mouth to lung style vape.

 

[dam718]

At this point, I'm thinking that Lemo 2 might have got hung up at the Post Office somewhere... It says it left Anaheim on the 28th of April, with a delivery date of Today. So far, no activity since Anaheim.

I'm pretty sure from Anaheim it gets on a plane directly to Honolulu, so no clue what the hold up is. Guess it's good to be patient.

 

[Vlad1]

I'll try the 28 on the Lemo 2 when it gets here. As good as this Subtank is performing right now, I don't wanna mess with it... Haha

Maybe I'll do a build with the 28 on the KFL and see how that does. The KFL doesn't have a build in it right now.

Unless you're looking specifically for a comparison of the two wire sizes on the Subtank Mini rba? The KFL will obviously be a much different experience since it's more of a mouth to lung style vape.

Sounds like someone needs to buy another Subtank mini. It would probably be a better comparison if you could compare the wire on the same device at some point but mainly was just wanting a comparison of how you like the two different sizes. I do have a Subtank mni so that would be a good comparison but wouldn't want you to mess up a good build. lol

 

[Fir3b1rd]

I'll try the 28 on the Lemo 2 when it gets here. As good as this Subtank is performing right now, I don't wanna mess with it... Haha

Maybe I'll do a build with the 28 on the KFL and see how that does. The KFL doesn't have a build in it right now.

Unless you're looking specifically for a comparison of the two wire sizes on the Subtank Mini RBA? The KFL will obviously be a much different experience since it's more of a mouth to lung style vape.

Ive been using the following
28g
28g tempered
26g
30g

Imho I agree with you, from performance perspective 26g on a single coil with the sxmini is by far the best. I haven't tried it with a dual coil but the 28tempered is about the same to work with and performs excellently in a dual coil; on a dma40 its great I'm single coil, but having the ability to build lower opening up the practical use of 26g is a game changer.

 

[tchavei]

The tire/speedo analogy assumes a consistent relationship based on the diameter the tires. Unfortunately, materials differ quite a bit when it comes to temperature control. For example, the temperature coefficient of Nickel is non-linear above 100 C. I have no idea what the temperature coefficient of Titanium is from 20 C to 400 C, but regardless of whether it's linear or not, there's going to be two significant problems with using Titanium on a Nickel tuned device:

(1) The temperature limit set by the user is targeting a resistance, which is based on ni200. Since ni200 is non-linear, it will most likely not have any consistent relationship to other materials when one changes the temperature limit. Thus, to find a satisfactory temperature limit using non-nickel materials will pretty much always require trial and error by the user and it is unlikely the user will have any reasonable idea of what temperature is achieved.

(2) The precision of the temperature control algorithm is also dependent on the properties of Nickel, which are quite different from that of Titanium. Even if you can get an accurate temperature control with Titanium, it will be considerably less precise (i.e., stable) in use. The reason is that the optimization algorithm will make an adjustment based on Nickel, which will only be partially successful for Titanium. Thus, more iterations will be required to achieve the desired temperature with Titanium than Nickel, which in a dynamic environment means far less stability.

Therefore, using Titanium for a Nickel-optimized device will likely mean trial and error to find a working "temperature" setting, no knowledge of what the temperature is actually achieved other than what it feels like, and due to precision/stability problems such a "temperature" setting would need to be substantially less than an appropriate Nickel build if one wants to avoid dry hits or some other undesirable aspect of excessive temperature. In practical terms, this means that using Nickel one might be able to target 400 F and have sufficient stability to avoid bad stuff at 420F. With Titanium, one might be able to achieve 400F, but due to the lack the stability, one will encounter bad stuff. Consequently, one would have to back off with Titanium, which can result in a less desirable vape to the user.

Nobody talked about titanium here, I don't get why this had to be brought up. Besides, this post has some wrong assumptions about titanium as a TP wire.

It works, it's stable, it outlasts nickel by a wide (very wide) margin. You obviously can't use the same temperature settings but once you dial in the temperature that satisfies you AND doesn't scorch your wick when dry, you're good to go.

Nickel temperature coefficient is linear up to 600F. It's above that temperature when things go wonky. Why do you think both manufacturer limited TP to near or at 600F? Not because of your health but because the temperature resistance curve of nickel goes wild above 600F. Yihi probably set a lower limit to give some extra tolerance. That's all.

Logic tells you that the higher the resistance of a coil, the less small variations influence the performance.

When a 0.10 ohm coil is read as 0.11, that's a 10% deviation.

If a 0.20 ohm coil is read as 0.21, that's only a 5% deviation.

A titanium coil at 0.52 Ohms (dna 40) that is read as 0.53 it will only have a 2% deviation.

I won't comment on that magic 0.065 resistance because I have no experience with the sx. I just chimed in to strait out some things about titanium.

Titanium grade 1 works great on a dna 40. If it works or not on a sx mini m class, I have no idea.

Rant ended

Tony

 

[Fir3b1rd]

Nobody talked about titanium here, I don't get why this had to be brought up. Besides, this post has some wrong assumptions about titanium as a TP wire.

It works, it's stable, it outlasts nickel by a wide (very wide) margin. You obviously can't use the same temperature settings but once you dial in the temperature that satisfies you AND doesn't scorch your wick when dry, you're good to go.

Nickel temperature coefficient is linear up to 600F. It's above that temperature when things go wonky. Why do you think both manufacturer limited TP to near or at 600F? Not because of your health but because the temperature resistance curve of nickel goes wild above 600F. Yihi probably set a lower limit to give some extra tolerance. That's all.

Logic tells you that the higher the resistance of a coil, the less small variations influence the performance.

When a 0.10 ohm coil is read as 0.11, that's a 10% deviation.

If a 0.20 ohm coil is read as 0.21, that's only a 5% deviation.

A titanium coil at 0.52 Ohms (dna 40) that is read as 0.53 it will only have a 2% deviation.

I won't comment on that magic 0.065 resistance because I have no experience with the sx. I just chimed in to strait out some things about titanium.

Titanium grade 1 works great on a dna 40. If it works or not on a sx mini m class, I have no idea.

Rant ended

Tony

I have a spool here, I tried it on a DNA 40 but when I realized a 5 wrap was still to high for the DNA to swap to tc I gave up.
From what I understand -no, I haven't tried it, I would need a 3 wrap to get far enough down to get below a 0.1 and the surface area, or lack there of, I would assume (could be wrong) to not really give as satisfying a vape as 7 wraps of the same gauge ni200.

 

[Vlad1]

Nobody talked about titanium here, I don't get why this had to be brought up. Besides, this post has some wrong assumptions about titanium as a TP wire.

It works, it's stable, it outlasts nickel by a wide (very wide) margin. You obviously can't use the same temperature settings but once you dial in the temperature that satisfies you AND doesn't scorch your wick when dry, you're good to go.

Nickel temperature coefficient is linear up to 600F. It's above that temperature when things go wonky. Why do you think both manufacturer limited TP to near or at 600F? Not because of your health but because the temperature resistance curve of nickel goes wild above 600F. Yihi probably set a lower limit to give some extra tolerance. That's all.

Logic tells you that the higher the resistance of a coil, the less small variations influence the performance.

When a 0.10 ohm coil is read as 0.11, that's a 10% deviation.

If a 0.20 ohm coil is read as 0.21, that's only a 5% deviation.

A titanium coil at 0.52 Ohms (dna 40) that is read as 0.53 it will only have a 2% deviation.

I won't comment on that magic 0.065 resistance because I have no experience with the sx. I just chimed in to strait out some things about titanium.

Titanium grade 1 works great on a dna 40. If it works or not on a sx mini m class, I have no idea.

Rant ended

Tony

Probably because there's a separate thread for titanium somewhere else under Experimental since it's not supported by any manufacturer that I'm aware of.

 

[derogg]

I'll try the 28 on the Lemo 2 when it gets here. As good as this Subtank is performing right now, I don't wanna mess with it... Haha

Maybe I'll do a build with the 28 on the KFL and see how that does. The KFL doesn't have a build in it right now.

Unless you're looking specifically for a comparison of the two wire sizes on the Subtank Mini RBA? The KFL will obviously be a much different experience since it's more of a mouth to lung style vape.

I would love if you did a build on the KF lite. That's what I have been using and it would be great to get some input on what the best build and settings are. So far its OK but i think it could be better.

 

[tchavei]

I have a spool here, I tried it on a DNA 40 but when I realized a 5 wrap was still to high for the DNA to swap to tc I gave up.
From what I understand -no, I haven't tried it, I would need a 3 wrap to get far enough down to get below a 0.1

Doesn't sound like titanium to me or something else was playing havoc but you can check the titanium thread if you're interested.

Probably because there's a separate thread for titanium somewhere else under Experimental since it's not supported by any manufacturer that I'm aware of.

Exactly my point. No need to drag titanium over here and then spread inaccurate info.

Regarding support... If we did only what manufacturer supported, we all would still be using silica wicks and nichrome coils.

 

[dannyben]

I do agree with this somewhat but I don't think .08-.09 is going to throw you off that much. .19 is a little high and like I say what I was told the closer you get to .065 the closer you temp is going to be. .09 is pretty easy to build and get enough of the wick covered to get a good vape thats why I think 26awg would be perfect. You could hit the resistance and get plenty of wick covered at the same time.

dannyben are you saying the chip has a baseline resistance requirement of 0.065 to for the calculations to work? I do not think that is what YIHI is saying with the .065 recommendation. The chip should be taking the base res of the wire to calculate and know the temp of the wire based on the rise of the res on the wire during your vape time.

People getting WAY bent out of shape over that magical mystical 0.065 target. It's just a target, not an absolute. It'll work fine at higher resistances AND be just as accurate (which is to say, just as much in the same ballpark, neither Yihi or Evolv is really what you'd call dead nuts accurate).

It HAS to work just fine and be as accurate. Otherwise, the board wouldn't work after the first hit of power and resistance starts climbing. They've got tables that account for the resistances that equate to temps of 200F to 570F, from the 0.05 ohm minimum to the 0.3 ohm maximum. As long as the baseline resistance is on the money and the coil is in the operating range, nothing else should matter.

That said, they probably recommend that 0.65 because that's an artifact of using thicker (easier to work with) Ni200 with a non-ludicrous amount of wraps. Which is a great thing, it gives the SX350J a lot more flexibility than the DNA40 when it comes to coils and wire gauge.

Getting back to your car analogy regarding titanium (or twisted Kanthal/Ni200 for that matter). To me, it's more like you've fitted tires that are a different profile/size than stock, to improve traction, but you can't re-calibrate your speedometer to give you a precise reading. No big deal, some simple math tells you that 45 indicated is indeed 55 actual...and you're really only worried about not exceeding 55 so there's only one equivalent to memorize. Is it ideal? No, but you've got a hoopty with better performance at the slight cost of doing some mental math.

It's even less of a bummer when you realize that your speedo with the stock tires had a (conservative) margin of error that only worsened as speeds got higher, so precision was already a unicorn.

errr..you are plain wrong mate! sorry! You know, if you are going to be aggressive, please understand what you are talking about! See Croak's post below for an example of an informed, measured post...jeez...

And I am perfectly capale of building at whatever resistance I want. And yes, I can use steam engine as well as you can. Thanks for the unwanted tutorial..

Can you direct me to where your referencing the device being OFF by 15%-20% comes from? All the information I've seen and stated has indicated the device is "Very Very Accurate & Very Very Consistent".

I'll explain this ONE LAST time. After that, well...its your device and do whatever you'd like.
YiHi recommends a build @ 0.065. Not 0.10. Not 0.20. Why? Because the unit is calibrated at THIS reading. It measures temperature based upon an algorithm & it uses this is its ABSOLUTE base, Will your unit fire with a 1.0ohm coil....yes! Will it be as accurate as if it was 0.065....NO! The further you are off of that 0.065 number the further the percentage your device will be off.

There is a +/- degree of error in the device. It has been tested @ approx 10%. If I set my temp to 420 (with a 0.065ohm coil) I can see the temp at times go up to as high as 450 at times. If i had a 0.20ohm coil when my device showed 420 (which is 100% accurate @ 0.065ohms) it could be as high as 450+ and with the 10% margin of error going up to a high as 495.

Those are the FACTS. And the further away from the 0.065 you go, the further your margin of error will be!
But, do as you please. It's your device. Just don't be posting erroneous info here saying your device is working perfectly and accurate with a 0.20ohm coil when people can not even get a kanger OCC @ 0.015 to work properly....because it won't!

 

[chia]

yeah, which is why going a bit higher than the rating isn't a bad idea...

Seriously though I'd think they are more likely to lie on the low side with that number to avoid any liability...

Well it's really hard to prove it's the battery's' fault when .... hits the fan.. Lots of re-wraps out there, for me I'll rather go by brands proven by the old timers here.. aw he2 etc.. I dun do crazy builds so better to stick to tried and tested stuffs.
And unless I have the expertise And the equipment to validate those figures on the wrapping, I wouldn't go building a setup that requires such.. Much like skating on thin ice.

 

[Vlad1]

I'll explain this ONE LAST time. After that, well...its your device and do whatever you'd like.
YiHi recommends a build @ 0.065. Not 0.10. Not 0.20. Why? Because the unit is calibrated at THIS reading. It measures temperature based upon an algorithm & it uses this is its ABSOLUTE base, Will your unit fire with a 1.0ohm coil....yes! Will it be as accurate as if it was 0.065....NO! The further you are off of that 0.065 number the further the percentage your device will be off.

There is a +/- degree of error in the device. It has been tested @ approx 10%. If I set my temp to 420 (with a 0.065ohm coil) I can see the temp at times go up to as high as 450 at times. If i had a 0.20ohm coil when my device showed 420 (which is 100% accurate @ 0.065ohms) it could be as high as 450+ and with the 10% margin of error going up to a high as 495.

Those are the FACTS. And the further away from the 0.065 you go, the further your margin of error will be!
But, do as you please. It's your device. Just don't be posting erroneous info here saying your device is working perfectly and accurate with a 0.20ohm coil when people can not even get a kanger OCC @ 0.015 to work properly....because it won't!

I'm simply asking your to provide links to validate your statements. I'd be genuinely interested in seeing where these statements of 10% degree of error or that anything is calibrated at any specific resistance. If it's fact then fine and great it won't change my opinion of the device but I'd like to see the objective test results to indicate such. You can say something a thousand times in a forum but if you don't substantiate your statement when asked it kind of makes your statements have less value. Guess I'm just the type of person that needs to see specs, colored pictures and graphs vs seeing someone randomly typing something in a forum.

Edit:
BTW your percentage in error changed from 15% - 20% in your first post to 10% in this post??????

 

[tchavei]

I'll explain this ONE LAST time. After that, well...its your device and do whatever you'd like.
YiHi recommends a build @ 0.065. Not 0.10. Not 0.20. Why? Because the unit is calibrated at THIS reading. It measures temperature based upon an algorithm & it uses this is its ABSOLUTE base, Will your unit fire with a 1.0ohm coil....yes! Will it be as accurate as if it was 0.065....NO! The further you are off of that 0.065 number the further the percentage your device will be off.

There is a +/- degree of error in the device. It has been tested @ approx 10%. If I set my temp to 420 (with a 0.065ohm coil) I can see the temp at times go up to as high as 450 at times. If i had a 0.20ohm coil when my device showed 420 (which is 100% accurate @ 0.065ohms) it could be as high as 450+ and with the 10% margin of error going up to a high as 495.

Those are the FACTS. And the further away from the 0.065 you go, the further your margin of error will be!
But, do as you please. It's your device. Just don't be posting erroneous info here saying your device is working perfectly and accurate with a 0.20ohm coil when people can not even get a kanger OCC @ 0.015 to work properly....because it won't!

I would like to know where you got your 'facts' from. Do you work for yihi? I never saw anything from them stating what you just said.

Just honestly curious.

Tony

Ps: on my dna, as flaky as it might be, when I put a 0.1 nickel build under running water, it shows 212F.... The same number appears when I do the test with a 0.3 ohm build... It seems well calibrated in both cases. Does the sx show different numbers under the same test with different coil resistances?

 

[druckle]

I would like to know where you got your 'facts' from. Do you work for yihi? I never saw anything from them stating what you just said.

Just honestly curious.

Tony

Ps: on my dna, as flaky as it might be, when I put a 0.1 nickel build under running water, it shows 212F.... The same number appears when I do the test with a 0.3 ohm build... It seems well calibrated in both cases. Does the sx show different numbers under the same test with different coil resistances?

My SX M shows 212F with a coil in water whether I have a coil resistance of 0.05 or 0.25. Physics may be different on the dark side of the moon.

 

[retird]

11:00 of this video....PB talks about temperature...

 

[dannyben]

I'm simply asking your to provide links to validate your statements. I'd be genuinely interested in seeing where these statements of 10% degree of error or that anything is calibrated at any specific resistance. If it's fact then fine and great it won't change my opinion of the device but I'd like to see the objective test results to indicate such. You can say something a thousand times in a forum but if you don't substantiate your statement when asked it kind of makes your statements have less value. Guess I'm just the type of person that needs to see specs, colored pictures and graphs vs seeing someone randomly typing something in a forum.

Edit:
BTW your percentage in error changed from 15% - 20% in your first post to 10% in this post??????

I would like to know where you got your 'facts' from. Do you work for yihi? I never saw anything from them stating what you just said.

Just honestly curious.

See this is why i elect not to respond to this anymore. 420 to 495 is 75 degrees, which on planet earth is (75/420) = 17.86%.

I do not work for yihi. but my information came DIRECTLY from them. Graphs? just look at your device and see for yourself. set it to any temperature. You don't see it firing about this?

And their "short / abbreviated" version is posted right on their website. What's New - Re the hum/buzzing sound

"Because the technology of M Class is the newest, and supports lower sub-ohm resistance, we suggest a 0.06-0.12 ohm base on Temco Ni-200. You can get the PERFECT experinces when you build the atomizer with the resistance 0.06ohm. However, if using the resistance above 0.3 ohm or Khanthal atomizers there will be variance and some unexpected behaviors may be observed in Joule mode.

And i'll answer your next question in an effort to save time. The unit is NOT 100% accurate from 0.07 to 0.30 and then all of a sudden it goes haywire. There is a gradual drop in accuracy the further away from the 0.065 ABSOLUTE BASE you go.

I still am amazed at all the talk here with building high? Why do you need/want to?
Is is that hard to use a 4-1/2 28g 3mm wrap or a 6-1/2 26g 3mm wrap? Why fight me when you have neither the basis to nor even try it to compare. Have you seen a single post from ANYONE here that is in the 0.06 to 0.09 range with any complaints? No..... because this is where the device is optimized for and where it is most accurate.

 

[dannyben]

I'm simply asking your to provide links to validate your statements. I'd be genuinely interested in seeing where these statements of 10% degree of error or that anything is calibrated at any specific resistance. If it's fact then fine and great it won't change my opinion of the device but I'd like to see the objective test results to indicate such. You can say something a thousand times in a forum but if you don't substantiate your statement when asked it kind of makes your statements have less value. Guess I'm just the type of person that needs to see specs, colored pictures and graphs vs seeing someone randomly typing something in a forum.

Edit:
BTW your percentage in error changed from 15% - 20% in your first post to 10% in this post??????

11:00 of this video....PB talks about temperature...

And more.... watch that video. PB uses a FLIR. look at the readings from 300 degrees (goes up to 330) and 500 degrees (goes up to 551). 10% and 10.2%. Please forgive my false statement of 10%. Looks like I was off 0.002.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

Throw away the rhetoric about the yihi xs mini m class, it's an incredible pv. I bought the Provari v.1 when it came out in 2010/11. The sx mini m class is what the provari v.1 was to vaping at that time: the poop. What an incredibly, solidly built pv this thing is. I got mine yesterday and I'm blown away by this thing. There's nothing on the market that matches its quality and versatility--at any price. I paid over $200 for the Provari v.1 in 2010 (with the extend cap). At $199, this pv is a steal. It's taken me 24 hours to hone in the potential of this pv and it's awesome. If I can figure out how to maximize this pv in 24 hours, anyone can. I've only been building coils since the first of the year when I got my vaporshark rdna 40... which is crap compared the sx mini m class. Just buy it, if you don't already have it, and if you have it--enjoy. If I can figure this thing out, then anyone can. carpe diem or pv.

 

[Vlad1]

See this is why i elect not to respond to this anymore. 420 to 495 is 75 degrees, which on planet earth is (75/420) = 17.86%.

I do not work for yihi. but my information came DIRECTLY from them. Graphs? just look at your device and see for yourself. set it to any temperature. You don't see it firing about this?

And their "short / abbreviated" version is posted right on their website. What's New - Re the hum/buzzing sound

"Because the technology of M Class is the newest, and supports lower sub-ohm resistance, we suggest a 0.06-0.12 ohm base on Temco Ni-200. You can get the PERFECT experinces when you build the atomizer with the resistance 0.06ohm. However, if using the resistance above 0.3 ohm or Khanthal atomizers there will be variance and some unexpected behaviors may be observed in Joule mode.

And i'll answer your next question in an effort to save time. The unit is NOT 100% accurate from 0.07 to 0.30 and then all of a sudden it goes haywire. There is a gradual drop in accuracy the further away from the 0.065 ABSOLUTE BASE you go.

I still am amazed at all the talk here with building high? Why do you need/want to?
Is is that hard to use a 4-1/2 28g 3mm wrap or a 6-1/2 26g 3mm wrap? Why fight me when you have neither the basis to nor even try it to compare. Have you seen a single post from ANYONE here that is in the 0.06 to 0.09 range with any complaints? No..... because this is where the device is optimized for and where it is most accurate.

Well I think your throwing around a lot of assumptions without actually understanding their statements. Do you notice they are referencing using resistances of above.3Ω "Over Spec" or using Kanthal in joule mode? Yes I'm certain there will be variance and unexpected behaviors in those circumstances. I also notice there is no reference to anything being "Calibrated" at .065Ω as you indicated. Is there a reason they made that statement? I'm certain there is but I don't believe it has anything at all to do with accuracy, but that's my opinion and since I have no facts to support why they did I won't comment on it. They certainly don't reference a 10% -15% or 20% error in accuracy which ever you feel like stating.

As for your questions, I haven''t stated that it's 100% accurate but simply requesting you to validate your claims which I don't feel you have. And as an FYI you typically do not use the device being measured as the measurement instrument because if it' inaccurate how will you know???

 

[Shel]

l when people can not even get a kanger OCC @ 0.015 to work properly....because it won't!

I REALLY don't want to step into this conversation, because I don't understand half of it, and I'm just not that interested....

However, saying that "people can not even get a kanger occ @ 0.015 to work" is simply incorrect.

I use a Kanger occ, set to 450F and 36J, and it works great, excellent flavor and my cotton doesn't burn... not sure if you're saying it doesn't work in some other way, but to ME, if I get an excellent vape, good flavor and good clouds, and I can vape until the tank is bone dry and not burn the cotton, that, TO ME... is working.

Does the temp jump above the 450F I set it to? Yeah, on occasion. Do I give a rat's ...? No. It delivers a great, warm vape and I don't have to worry about burnt cotton.

Period. End of sentence.