SXmini M Class (TEMP CONTROL)

[Fir3b1rd]

The irony is that if someone had said: "look, we have an update, you can now build dual coils with 28g or single coils with 26g, without needing more wraps than you were used to before, and no performance punishment if you end up below 0.1 ohm" back in October-November, we would probably have done a little dance and kissed a random passer-by. I only see it as a big advantage that we can build this low on the SX if we want to. As for how it performs at different resistance levels, isn't that up for experimentation? If your coils don't seem to work all the way down: build them a bit higher - or vice versa. L'embarras du choix if you ask me. Or am I missing something?

I don't know what that means but I like it.
and I'm still loving not needing 1.21 giggawraps for TL

 

[Bikenstein]

Hey guys wanna build a coil a for my lemo 2 ...have 28 g nickel from vaporshark ...to get a good coil for m class how many wraps and is 2.5 mil big enough or should I go 3 mil ...also spaced or not ...thanks

I'm new at this but for my first coil I did 7x3mmx28gNi and it works super in both my VaporShark and Mini M. 16.5 @ 400 in the VS and 25j @ 400 in the SX. I'm likin this TL or whatever more and more.

 

[JimScotty0]

Hey guys wanna build a coil a for my lemo 2 ...have 28 g nickel from vaporshark ...to get a good coil for m class how many wraps and is 2.5 mil big enough or should I go 3 mil ...also spaced or not ...thanks

My go to coil for the Lemo 2 so far has been 28ga on 3mm using 5 wraps giving you around .07 ohms. I will be experimenting with some 26ga twisted with 28 or 30ga Kanthal today or tomorrow.

 

[Fir3b1rd]

My go to coil for the Lemo 2 so far has been 28ga on 3mm using 5 wraps giving you around .07 ohms. I will be experimenting with some 26ga twisted with 28 or 30ga Kanthal today or tomorrow.

From my experience with kanthal, (24-26-28G's) it really excells in TL mode-I didn't care for it much with kanthal. Curious to see what you think after trying. I've also tried it with 26,28 and 30g ni200. From what I got 26g, 8wraps at 3mm ID seemed to give it the best results, would be interesting to see your experience there as well.

They need to put out another single coil RTA with the airflow of the lamo, all my dual coil RTAs are just not doing it for me with nickel builds.

 

[Vlad1]

Shell, I did not say it doesn't "work".... I said "properly". My point, which is DIRECTLY from yihi, the further away from the 0.065 baseline you go the LESS accurate your device will be. All that is important here is you are enjoying your new mod with those coils. It is working accurately enough for you and that's the key. But try building the RBA section with the suggested wraps I said, and chime back in with the difference you see instantly.



Are you describing how you'd "LIKE" the device to operate or how it does? Sorry, and i too do not want to stroke your fire or get into this any further, but the device does not work this way.

I could reset a scale, set it to zero, get on it and be pretty accurate. But then bring it to the moon. zero it there and then be off about 84%. Because the resistance (gravity) is different there and the scale is not programed to sense that difference.

I am not suggesting anything here. Simply passing on information given to me from yihi. I even sent you a link where it is in print right on their website. You see the results hooked up to a $10K FLIR, but yet you want to describe how you'd like the device to work rather then how it actually does. And you see pages and pages of posts here all from people stating things like, their device doesnt ever hit the temp they set it for, they are fooling their device and setting temps 100 degree lower, the vape feels much hotter then the actual reading, etc.... And you know whats in common there? They are all using higher builds. This device is absolutely amazing and the best device I have ever owned. When i have the proper build on it. Have you seen one post in this forum from someone complaining of the issues I just mentioned about using a built under 0.09?



The FLIR is not accurate for measuring temperature? Really? No one ever stated anything about resistance. Watch his video again. His first setup is exactly the 10% variance i stated before watching it. And I bet he is pretty close to the 0.065ohm suggested on that tank. Watch what happens next when he uses other tanks and how it is ALL OVER the place. Obviously built much higher then the suggested 0.065. You see the proof right there in video, but yet still making an argument?



It shouldn't be. This is a helping community. Not sure why everyone is jumping on me when all i have done is try and correct pages of misinformation given & pass on the proper information directly from yihi and displayed in real true accurate tests. Silly Pythagoras for pointing out the earth was really round, when everyone was perfectly fine accepting that it was flat....and hey, it only took about 2000 years for people to believe him.

I think the problem here is misinterpretation. I did not state the Flir was not accurate merely that what it measures is different than the device measures so the results of the test is more of a representation. If we were only interested in a single point on the coil and the device only used that specific point of the coil then it could be an accurate depiction. I do expect the Flir to be accurate but I wouldn't expect it to tell me the exact temperature of a campfire should It be pointed at it.

And I am not making an argument in either direction. I"m still repeatedly asking you to substantiate your facts and explaining why the information you've provided to be either inaccurate or misinterpreted.

You need to understand the Flir is using a focal point for the sensor detection whereas the device is using the average of the complete coil. The Flir is only a representation not an overall way to measure the actual temperature or resistance of the coil. You may notice that as it's moved up and down the coil it may vary a couple hundred degrees. That doesn't mean the device is 40% inaccurate.

I've pointed this out previously but this information that you continuously refer to Directly from Yihi as your proof I think is also being misinterpreted. There is no indication of any calibration or any tolerance of 10%- 15% or 20% degree of error as you've stated. So unless you have other correspondence that you haven't shared please do.

Well I think your throwing around a lot of assumptions without actually understanding their statements. Do you notice they are referencing using resistances of above.3Ω "Over Spec" or using Kanthal in joule mode? Yes I'm certain there will be variance and unexpected behaviors in those circumstances. I also notice there is no reference to anything being "Calibrated" at .065Ω as you indicated. Is there a reason they made that statement? I'm certain there is but I don't believe it has anything at all to do with accuracy, but that's my opinion and since I have no facts to support why they did I won't comment on it. They certainly don't reference a 10% -15% or 20% error in accuracy which ever you feel like stating.

As for your questions, I haven''t stated that it's 100% accurate but simply requesting you to validate your claims which I don't feel you have. And as an FYI you typically do not use the device being measured as the measurement instrument because if it' inaccurate how will you know???

Let's dissect the statement you are referencing.

"Because the technology of M Class is the newest, and supports lower sub-ohm resistance, we suggest a 0.06-0.12 ohm base on Temco Ni-200. You can get the PERFECT experinces when you build the atomizer with the resistance 0.06ohm. However, if using the resistance above 0.3 ohm or Khanthal atomizers there will be variance and some unexpected behaviors may be observed in Joule mode.

1.) Suggest .06 - .12Ω Temco Ni-200
2.) You can get Perfect experience at .06Ω
3.) Don't build over device specs of .3Ω
4.) Don't use Kanthal in Joule mode
5.) You will see variance and unexpected behaviors if you build over spec of .3Ω or use unsupported wire "Kanthal" in Joule Mode.

So not one mention of +/- percent of accuracy or calibration of any type from what I can see. They do point out explicitly to use the appropriate type of wire and within the device specifications. Now while I do know it's common to have +/- a percentage of tolerance in most electronic components I fail to see where you have provided any substantiating proof of your claims.

 

[JimScotty0]

From my experience with kanthal, (24-26-28G's) it really excells in TL mode-I didn't care for it much with kanthal. Curious to see what you think after trying. I've also tried it with 26,28 and 30g ni200. From what I got 26g, 8wraps at 3mm ID seemed to give it the best results, would be interesting to see your experience there as well.

They need to put out another single coil RTA with the airflow of the lamo, all my dual coil RTAs are just not doing it for me with nickel builds.

Fir3bird, are you using the 26ga NI200 and twisting it with Kanthal? What gauge Kanthal with the 26ga NI200?

 

[Fir3b1rd]

Fir3bird, are you using the 26ga NI200 and twisting it with Kanthal? What gauge Kanthal with the 26ga NI200?

No im not twisting. They were all either Kanthal or Nickel. I'm not personally a fan of the whole twisted fancy gobbly ..... I'm just a plain old vanilla guy.
I do use tempered 28g ni200 though
they edited 'gobbkyg00k'. I didn't know that was a bad word.

 

[dannyben]

And Dannyben? There's no magic algorithm, it's a lookup table of resistances that correspond to temps, with some fairly simple math to account for whatever baseline you set. As long as it "knows" what the baseline resistance is, the rest is a simple lookup function and delta math. The real magic of both the DNA40 and the SX350J isn't magic math, it's the extreme frequency in which they can check and react to those deltas. Doesn't matter if it's 0.065 or 0.3 baseline in regards to accuracy. It just doesn't.

Think about this...if that coil is 0.065 at rest, and you throw power at it, by the time it's up to the common 400F-ish range of temps people seem to prefer, it's now a 0.6 or higher ohm coil. 10 times the resistance, but it's accurate enough to regulate that just fine. As it would be if the resting resistance was 0.12, or 0.2, or 0.3, and so on. It doesn't matter what the baseline is. It just doesn't.

Think about this too, after you fire, take a vape, then set it down for a minute and fire again, you're still not at 0.065 when the vape starts, because that coil, wick, and atomizer are all still higher than ambient. That 0.065 ohm coil is most likely a 0.1+ coil for the next vape. Yet it's still able to regulate just as well as a cold coil. Why is that? Because where the baseline starts DOES NOT MATTER. IT JUST DOESN'T.

As for Yihi saying 0.065 provides the "optimal" vape, that's a pretty subjective thing, don't you think? Especially when they don't specify HOW you get to that resistance, which could range from 2 wraps of 32ga to 8 or more wraps of 26ga, depending on coil ID, and that doesn't take into account the myriad of atomizers it could be in. And it for sure doesn't account for personal preferences either.

OYYYYY!

Again, this is NOT my theory. This is STRAIGHT FROM YIHI.

And you are incorrect, and proving (not me, but) YIHI correct. That is why we calibrate the unit at room temperature. So it has that true initial resistance. The algorithms built into the board take in to account the the change in temp and the resistance in the coil change at that temp. That is why it is so important to be as close to 0.065 as possible. The further off you are the less accurate your readings and hence the device will be.

There are tons of different ways to get to 0.065. Why would Yihi specify how to get there. And as you point out it could be different based upon many factors. But....once you put your built tank on the device and it reads 0.065 and you lock it in, the unit will be most accurate.

This is not "magic". This is simple mathematics. But whatever. My only reason for posting this was to correct the misinformation given in this thread and help the users having issues who were building higher -- which NO ONE building at 0.065 - 0.09 were having. To pass on the information from Yihi. I've done that and silly to get heated over this. You have the information from Yihi and FLIR tests to show it, but you'd rather state how you'd like the device to work.

 

[2legsshrt]

Vlad thats the same thing I'm waiting to see since the number of wraps will be the same but instead of .09 it will be .065

 

[JimScotty0]

OYYYYY!

Again, this is NOT my theory. This is STRAIGHT FROM YIHI.

And you are incorrect, and proving (not me, but) YIHI correct. That is why we calibrate the unit at room temperature. So it has that true initial resistance. The algorithms built into the board take in to account the the change in temp and the resistance in the coil change at that temp. That is why it is so important to be as close to 0.065 as possible. The further off you are the less accurate your readings and hence the device will be.

There are tons of different ways to get to 0.065. Why would Yihi specify how to get there. And as you point out it could be different based upon many factors. But....once you put your built tank on the device and it reads 0.065 and you lock it in, the unit will be most accurate.

This is not "magic". This is simple mathematics. But whatever. My only reason for posting this was to correct the misinformation given in this thread and help the users having issues who were building higher -- which NO ONE building at 0.065 - 0.09 were having. To pass on the information from Yihi. I've done that and silly to get heated over this. You have the information from Yihi and FLIR tests to show it, but you'd rather state how you'd like the device to work.

Well I guess I will jump into this one too. I do shoot for the .065 as I do believe it the mod is designed around it for the best results. Yihi does recommend it, but it is not absolute. I usually so far have wound up between 7-8, sometimes 9 ohms and having the best results with my 7ish builds. I have also used the Kanger prebuilt coils and had good results too which is the other extreme. I just prefer around 7 or 8 wraps so I am going to go for the 26ga instead of the 28ga NI200 I have been using with 5-6 wraps. The mod can handle quite a wide range and fortunately it allows us to go down pretty damn low. I would have never thought that was safe or possible until just a month or so ago so we can again build without having a 15 wrap coil on an atty.

You can still get great results with higher ohm builds than the .065 but for me personally I am finding the 7ish range to be superb. The nice thing about this SX-350J chip is that it just works so well with a nice range so we can all get a great vape while doing what we like to do. End result, do you like your vape? Are you enjoying it? If yes, then don't change if you feel there is no need. Just enjoy this technology until we find the next thing that will even blow this out of the water. But for now, this is great stuff for the APV folks.

 

[2legsshrt]

Thats why I was curious if dam718 turned his M down to 410 what kind of a vape would he get since he has the resistance right on.

 

[Fir3b1rd]

Anyone stop to think that mass/energy has more to do with it than the magic number?
Thought it would be fun to throw in another variable/angle. Since so many getting worked up over the magic number. I love how numbers have meanings.
When I first started with RBAs...the KFL, like everyone started with.(hate them, sorry I just hate those things)
Nonetheless I noticed 7-8 wraps of 28g worked the best at lower provari voltages (hate those too)
But, despite my hatred, I noticed between 7-9 wraps of 'X' gauge worked best.
Maybe its a wicked coincidence but 8 wraps of 26 or 28 g seems to work great on this thing....
I know that's to simplistic for me to be in the cool kid club here, but just thought I would mention the observation

 

[Bikenstein]

I don't see any problem. I did my first one at .09- 7 wraps 28g and it works great in the Mini and the VS.

 

[2legsshrt]

Or maybe 420 the magic number if you get my meaning

 

[Vlad1]

Anyone stop to think that mass/energy has more to do with it than the magic number?
Thought it would be fun to throw in another variable/angle. Since so many getting worked up over the magic number. I love how numbers have meanings.
When I first started with RBAs...the KFL, like everyone started with.(hate them, sorry I just hate those things)
Nonetheless I noticed 7-8 wraps of 28g worked the best at lower provari voltages (hate those too)
But, despite my hatred, I noticed between 7-9 wraps of 'X' gauge worked best.
Maybe its a wicked coincidence but 8 wraps of 26 or 28 g seems to work great on this thing....
I know that's to simplistic for me to be in the cool kid club here, but just thought I would mention the observation

I'm interpreting what your saying as surface area of wick to coil?? IDK but I've typically been liking it with 5/6 wraps at about .09Ω better than .065Ω but this last build I went to 6/7 and went to a little over .1Ω which I'm liking even better. Think I'll try 7/8 next build and just keep on going until it's not getting any better.

 

[Fir3b1rd]

I'm interpreting what your saying as surface area of wick to coil?? IDK but I've typically been liking it with 5/6 wraps at about .09Ω better than .065Ω but this last build I went to 6/7 and went to a little over .1Ω which I'm liking even better. Think I'll try 7/8 next build and just keep on going until it's not getting any better.

Yeah Vlad, thats what I mean
...but really the ratio of mass/power.
Despite Rt.
Mass being a ratio of surface area of coil/ wick juice.
It was something that stuck out when I was talking to a vet as a noob to rbas
badittude had made a comment of "7/8 wraps smog 28g seems to be the most efficient build on anything with the limits we have"
Despite all the electronic principals and fuzzy math, that statement seems to have held true, at least with most of my setups. I'm rebuilding a few toppers this morning and noticing despite the metal or gauge all my coils are either 7 or 8 wraps.
Maybe its an old hobbit thats hard to break or something more.
But with the lamo/mclass 8 wraps of 26g ni200 is golden. Puts me at 0.07)that'll make someone happy. Lol
At the same time 8 wraps of 28g in a freak show mini is giving me 0.09 and that one is rocking. I dunno

 

[Fir3b1rd]

What if C A T really spelled dog

 

[Vlad1]

Yeah Vlad, thats what I mean
...but really the ratio of mass/power.
Despite Rt.
Mass being a ratio of surface area of coil/ wick juice.
It was something that stuck out when I was talking to a vet as a noob to rbas
badittude had made a comment of "7/8 wraps smog 28g seems to be the most efficient build on anything with the limits we have"
Despite all the electronic principals and fuzzy math, that statement seems to have held true, at least with most of my setups. I'm rebuilding a few toppers this morning and noticing despite the metal or gauge all my coils are either 7 or 8 wraps.
Maybe its an old hobbit thats hard to break or something more.
But with the lamo/mclass 8 wraps of 26g ni200 is golden. Puts me at 0.07)that'll make someone happy. Lol
At the same time 8 wraps of 28g in a freak show mini is giving me 0.09 and that one is rocking. I dunno

What diameter are you building? 8wraps 28g for me would be about .12Ω - .13Ω for me.

 

[JimScotty0]

Thats why I was curious if dam718 turned his M down to 410 what kind of a vape would he get since he has the resistance right on.

I have been at 429F with my last 50/50 juice and just changed flavors to another more custardy 50/50 on the same tank and wicking and got my temp settling down now at 444F. There is no magic number. You have to match to meet the needs of your current setup, juice, build, etc.

 

[JimScotty0]

Yeah Vlad, thats what I mean
...but really the ratio of mass/power.
Despite Rt.
Mass being a ratio of surface area of coil/ wick juice.
It was something that stuck out when I was talking to a vet as a noob to rbas
badittude had made a comment of "7/8 wraps smog 28g seems to be the most efficient build on anything with the limits we have"
Despite all the electronic principals and fuzzy math, that statement seems to have held true, at least with most of my setups. I'm rebuilding a few toppers this morning and noticing despite the metal or gauge all my coils are either 7 or 8 wraps.
Maybe its an old hobbit thats hard to break or something more.
But with the lamo/mclass 8 wraps of 26g ni200 is golden. Puts me at 0.07)that'll make someone happy. Lol
At the same time 8 wraps of 28g in a freak show mini is giving me 0.09 and that one is rocking. I dunno

You did hit on something there Fir3bird, the mass ratio vs power seems to be a big key factor here with TC. If your mass is too low you may find that TC may jump around due to the lower mass. That is why my next build will be with 26ga so I can get more wraps and still keep the ohms down and have a greater mass than only using 5 wraps with the 28ga.