Taste is subjective - My Backsides!

[crxess]

Yes this is a Rant

I have to say, whoever started that was excellent in market management. The first thing you need to sell something different is to create a market for it. Convincing people of anything seems possible.

In my book - Taste is Subjective - means only ONE thing
Some people like a taste while others do not. My wife hates sweet chocolates but likes spicy food. I like both.

We both know what a Sweet apple taste like in our mouths.

e-liquid manufacturers should be held to standards and not get away with passing off off flavored e-liquids as an issue with our personal taste.

Any e-liquid made to truly replicate a specific real item, be it an Apple, a Strawberry, a Pineapple or any other item of relative consistant taste should achieve that standard of flavor.
This goes from a sore issue to a financial burden when someone orders a flavor from 10 different suppliers and ends up with 10 different taste of the same Flavor with maybe 1 coming close.
This is not Subjective taste or all would taste right or wrong! This is poor replication of Flavor!
I have even less regard for all the postings of - This is the Best Flavor, Just like it should taste! USE the IMO people, your taste buds may not be up to snuff yet.

Bite a lemon - Vape lemon - you should get lemon - Not kind of lemony or lemon pledge
Same with any other copy flavor

Off the soapbox:
I have no issue with custom mixers making special creations. While not for everyone, they make no claim to be just like anything.

 

[gthompson]

"Taste is subjective" simply means what I like you may not like, and what you like I may not like. It doesn't mean chicken doesn't taste like chicken. If some vendor sold you filet minion that tasted like chicken, that is not "subjective".

 

[corruption42]

Unfortunately, its not as simple as that -- they are flavored based on extract/concentrate names more than anything. And, like it or not, taste IS subjective. You might notice the sweet nuances in the green apple, but I might dwell on the sour notes. Not all tastebuds are created equal, or in the same density.

That said, there are some terrible, terrible fruit replications out there.

 

[Dougiestyle]

Coka-cola vs Pepsi

Both are caramel-colored sodas. Alot of people have drank both at some point. Most prefer one over the other.

While I agree with some of your sentiment, as in RY4 should be an industry standard recipe, no one knows the exact flavors/mix/steep time/etc except the originator.

Unfortunately, with flavors being influenced and received via our olfactory sense, environmental conditions affect flavor just as much as the ingredients. Some days my black honey tobacco (ADED) tastes better than others.

 

[crxess]

I suppose I should have express my point more directly.

To many small labs(mixers), even though highly recommended, are using SUBJECTIVE to cover a lack of authentic replication as noted in such Wide variances in actual Flavor compared to the original. To many claim taste JUST LIKE while missing the mark by a mile.

Again if you bite an apple and vape an apple they should taste very similar. Defense by claim of taste buds differ is not a defense at all. The effect would still be the same to the same taste buds.

If I ate grapes and everyone else swore they tasted like oranges, I'd expect the same from an e-liquid that replicated them.

 

[oldsoldier]

I suppose I should have express my point more directly.

To many small labs(mixers), even though highly recommended, are using SUBJECTIVE to cover a lack of authentic replication as noted in such Wide variances in actual Flavor compared to the original. To many claim taste JUST LIKE while missing the mark by a mile.

Again if you bite an apple and vape an apple they should taste very similar. Defense by claim of taste buds differ is not a defense at all. The effect would still be the same to the same taste buds.

If I ate grapes and everyone else swore they tasted like oranges, I'd expect the same from an e-liquid that replicated them.

Artificial flavors are exactly that (artificial) and some people have a more highly refined sense of taste than others. That is the difference between a short order cook in a greasy spoon and a executive chef at a 5 star restaurant.

Some flavorings are more "true" than others but most people realize that artificial flavors are often "off". So yes I can understand your grievance and even agree to a certain extent, but it is what it is.

 

[Dougiestyle]

Artificial flavors are exactly that (artificial) and some people have a more highly refined sense of taste than others. That is the difference between a short order cook in a greasy spoon and a executive chef at a 5 star restaurant.

Some flavorings are more "true" than others but most people realize that artificial flavors are often "off". So yes I can understand your grievance and even agree to a certain extent, but it is what it is.

Good point, boss!

 

[Rocketpunk]

Taste *is* subjective. You even said it in your OP. Your wife hates chocolate but likes spicy food. You like both.

It sounds like you got burned on a specific juice, contacted the vendor, and got the reply "Taste is subjective". It's not a handwavium excuse to cover their butts, it's a simple fact.

If you don't like that specific vendor's juice flavors, try another's. There's countless "Apple", "Strawberry", "Peach", etc., out there. Some get it better than others. And like that grizzled old vet said, artificial flavors are artificial flavors. Does an apple Jolly Rancher taste like an apple? No. That would be impossible.

Anyone ever seen that movie Extract? Off topic.

 

[patkin]

I agree with you and that's exactly why I don't order from vendors who don't show user reviews and plenty of them. I happen to like watermelon jolly ranchers and got a great mimicking juice right off. The vendor changed his recipe to a "fresh watermelon with rind" flavor and I've been on a search ever since. On that search I've seen lots and lots of watermelon reviews... everything from soap, perfume, watermelon pits and all to jolly rancher and have invested more money than I care to think about on duds. Every now and then I come across a review written by someone with a "gourmet" pallete and its so appreciated. I want a green apple tartness for instance and they specify that way. Others just say "tastes like an apple"... well, there are Granny Smith green ones, red ones of varying sweetness and tartness, yellow ones (yuck) and so on. So, not all apples are equal. Tastes like an apple doesn't cover it. So, as said, reading user reviews on the site helps.

 

[crxess]

I knew it would get interesting but honestly didn't expect to draw attention of the the mods.

Seriously not looking to start any kind of battles.

I have had and do have a few excellent e-liquids. I have also collected a closet full of misrepresented e-liquids.

I even have 5 that though they are labeled as 5 different flavor all 5 have a very similar and kind of nasty taste.(all from same supplier)

I do understand artificial. I also understand technical know how.

In my opinion there is a huge difference in attempting to replicate and doing the research in order to replicate. This seems well proven in certain achievements which have garnered true praise and mass agreement. Unfortunately those achievements are by only a few and contained to limited mixes.
For those outside that small selection preference it is a world of press your luck and hope.

The RY4 reference was a good example of my feeling. In its original mix it was Praised by the masses. Many have worked hard to produce a close representation and while not exact, they can be proud of a close reproduction. Others simply through chemicals together and do their best to say THIS IS IT when it is nothing like the original.
Yes they are artificial. But that does not mean they have to by nature be off.

Anyway, sorry if I have upset anyone. I'm just glad I can keep off smoking in spite of having to take the BAD with the good.

 

[gthompson]

Anyone ever seen that movie Extract? Off topic.

Certainly off topic, but yes.

 

[livingword26]

If I buy a chocolate tobacco, from a certain vendor, and it tastes like vomit and hairspray to me, then I may need to steep it. If I steep it for 2 weeks, and it still tastes like vomit and hairspray, then there is a problem. Either it was mixed incorrectly, or it needs steeped for multiple months. If a vendor is going to sell a product that need steeped for multiple months, then that needs to be part of the advertising for this product. I've bought 2 different products from 2 different vendors, that were disgustingly unvapable. 1 steeped out, the other did not. I have no interest in buying a product I can't use for 2 months, especially when I wasn't told that is what it would take. And I now what chocolate and tobacco tastes like. I can take some pretty large variances in those flavors to. But come on.

 

[corruption42]

I knew it would get interesting but honestly didn't expect to draw attention of the the mods.

Seriously not looking to start any kind of battles.

I have had and do have a few excellent e-liquids. I have also collected a closet full of misrepresented e-liquids.

I even have 5 that though they are labeled as 5 different flavor all 5 have a very similar and kind of nasty taste.(all from same supplier)

I do understand artificial. I also understand technical know how.

In my opinion there is a huge difference in attempting to replicate and doing the research in order to replicate. This seems well proven in certain achievements which have garnered true praise and mass agreement. Unfortunately those achievements are by only a few and contained to limited mixes.
For those outside that small selection preference it is a world of press your luck and hope.

The RY4 reference was a good example of my feeling. In its original mix it was Praised by the masses. Many have worked hard to produce a close representation and while not exact, they can be proud of a close reproduction. Others simply through chemicals together and do their best to say THIS IS IT when it is nothing like the original.
Yes they are artificial. But that does not mean they have to by nature be off.

Anyway, sorry if I have upset anyone. I'm just glad I can keep off smoking in spite of having to take the BAD with the good.

Don't think anyone's getting riled up -- I certainly haven't seen it. And the mods around here love a rousing debate as much as the next person -- as long as its within bounds of the rules

I don't think anyone will (edit) DISagree (edit) with you that there's terrible out there -- but just cuz it tastes unlike its description to you doesn't mean others agree. Even with the natural extracts -- how do we know what is being extracted and retained in the concentration process is the essences we're even looking for, flavor wise? A good example to me is orange oil -- its extremely sharp and bitter, flavor-wise, but is absolutely an essence of the orange. It largely comes down to finding a vendor that matches your tastes and sticking with them -- they likely have a similar palate to you, so you grow to trust their judgements. Consider it a good thing that you can taste how horrible the other juices are -- and on the flipside a bad thing cuz it means you'll invariably go through MANY that you hate

I have a similar problem with a lot of the fruit representations out there, and have ordered hundreds upon hundreds from tons of vendors. I ultimately have wound up with 3 vendors for most things -- and ended up giving 3 ziploc bags full of various juices that I hated to a good friend of mine. He finished all ~150 or so bottles that I gave him already, and said there was maybe a dozen he didn't like -- and has reordered several.

I am now going to try my hand at DIY for some of my more simple favorites. This is another way you can avoid dealing with other peoples false (by your impressions) interpretations of flavors -- and save some money in the long run

 

[crxess]

I am now going to try my hand at DIY for some of my more simple favorites. This is another way you can avoid dealing with other peoples false (by your impressions) interpretations of flavors -- and save some money in the long run

That is my next goal. Then I will at least know for a fact the mixer is clueless

 

[oldsoldier]

Honestly I think the reaction here is mostly over your choice of title. It also looks like this thread has been pretty calm and respectful exchange of opinion. Just because I'm the Forum Manager doesn't mean I'm intrinsically right on Vaping matters, as far as that is concerned I'm just another vaper with my own opinions. I would like to think that since I've been around a few days I know what I'm talking about, but again tastes and likes are subjective

 

[StormFinch]

From personal experience; I adore good chocolate, in fact, you could say I'm a bit of chocolate connoisseur. I can tell you right off the bat when a company uses a cheaper substitute ingredient or changes up their recipe. To this day, I cannot find a chocolate vape that doesn't taste like cardboard to me. A larger number of other vapers will rave about a particular chocolate juice and I'll give in and order it, only to taste cardboard. My point is that, yes artificial flavors are exactly that, but let's take it a step further. Is what I taste as red delicious apple the exact same red delicious apple you do? When there are no identifying characteristics to a substance, what percentage of people can correctly identify the flavor? And, how many of us have done so much damage to our taste buds that we will never properly taste one or more aspects of particular flavors again? It's not that I'm trying to argue the point, but just that I'm honestly curious.

 

[oldsoldier]

Most chocolate flavors taste "powdery" to me... you know like cocoa powder rather than milk chocolate.

 

[StormFinch]

Most chocolate flavors taste "powdery" to me... you know like cocoa powder rather than milk chocolate.

I can definitely see that... in fact, I do believe there was at least one in my chocolate adventures that tasted more like eating dry hot cocoa mix directly out of the package.

 

[patkin]

There's a whole language wine tasters use.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wine_tasting_descriptors

and it all tastes like... well... wine.

Maybe we need that for juices.

 

[oldsoldier]

I guess that would be better than saying OMG this juice tastes like [fecal matter] which brings up the rhetorical question how many people really know what that tastes like...