TC-TCR Temperature Control TCR Value Solution for Different Coils/Mods

[MTL Connoisseur]

I must admit I am not getting a satisfying vape with the device right now.
It is sharp throat-hit but the smoke is not enough.

If I am at the right temperature range "in average for everyone else's" 400F-420F
at 20 joules, I think at this point it is TCR issue that needs dialing in.

Edit: 30 joules is helping but still feels under powered?
I am good with the temperatures & joules, I am left only with TCR adjustment now.

 

[MTL Connoisseur]

Okay I got impatient and decided to test the current coil spool I have from
Master of Clouds / Master Wire Supply. SS316L 28ga single rounded wire.

I will be redoing this test with Temco wire that's on the way.

Be warned this is photo intensive post!
For simplicity sake I will leave my comment before every picture posted.

This is the test bench and everything that was used during the test.

This is the coil and wick "Koh Gen Do" that was used and abused for week and a half, so at least you know my builds are solid +/-.

Here Kayfun Lite 2019 was put in a basket for ultrasonic cleaning
Warm water+Dawn Degreaser soap dilution 1:1000 that's a pea size drop of soap.

Tested Mods:
Left: Vaporesso Armour Pro Right: Yihi SXmini SL Class
They have black rubber sleeves on in case your wondering.

Wire cleaned with alcohol wipes.
Here a new coil is build out of 28ga SS316L.
1.22ohm "like the previous one" exactly.
13-14 wraps, internal 2.5mm, Spaced, 4mm leg.
I only fire it for a slight color change to make sure it's firing inside out
"no glowing red or any sort of high heat"

Wick Koh Gen Do, Again researched thoroughly it should pull slightly on the
coil as not to deform it, and rolled like a cigarette gently then rolled gently
between both hands.
Watch this series if your interested "from part one but here is the conclusion"
I did wick #3 in the test. with widening the ends slightly (I have a short deck)

Coil and wick now have e-liquid on

Deck+Wick+Coil and now temperature probe inside of the coil,
and the probe was touching the coil from the inside held by the wicked cotton
As you can see the resistance has not changed and everything looks safe and stable.

 

[MTL Connoisseur]

After testing there is no short and then ramp up time of Mod and thermocouple
with an open chimney,
I flipped the device and filled the kayfun lite tank and screwed the tank in
"not the mod or the deck" as not to disturb the coil and temperature probe.

First TCR test with closed chimney "Ideal" calibration
TCR at 93 Temperature 400F, you will notice I am only getting 363F and not
the full 400F.
Unfortunately after testing further and verifying for sure I am getting less
temperature than the display of the Yihi in closed chimney setup the Kayfun
started to leak because of the disturbances in the vacuum inside the tank.
But again I verified I was getting 40-60F less temperature than what I set on my device at TCR 93.

As I discussed earlier with Mike 400F is 400F open or closed chimney,
I went to open chimney setup, I kept on adding e-liquid throughout the test
and never let the cotton get dry along the way.

TCR is the same @93 unless indicated in the pictures
You will notice the device(s) are overshooting by allot even if factor in
closed chimney setup, I was not happy with what I've seen.
Keep in mind, in open chimney setup I am looking at both screens
to verify.

Better

At this point I felt better about the Yihi SXmini so I decided
to try out my backup. Vaporesso Armour Pro.
I was happy and vaping this device at TCR 109 and 300F previously,
I know now why, and I also know now why it is very important to
test the spools you get for correct TCR value if you have this style of Mods.
If I was vaping this at 300F it means I was vaping around 425F because of
incorrect TCR value, in this test I set it to 400F, and I did multiple runs to verify.

Further tests with Yihi SXmini at TCR 80 to verify

Spool Tested:

The deck after the test.

In conclusion what I found out from this test, closed chimney you will get less heat
from what you set unless you dial in TCR at that condition of closed setup.

Open chimney setup overshoots 60-120F+ unless you dial in TCR for this setup

For my vape by adjusting the wattage and/or preheat you can achieve an excellent vape with accurate mod if you dial in TCR for the spool your using. Right now for me for this spool
I am set the only variables I will play with is temperature, wattage/joules, preheat power.

Right now on my Yihi TCR 80, Temperature 400, Joules(Wattage) 40.
I forgot I just need to place a sticker on that spool saying TCR80

Edit: For more accuracy to simulate closed chimney setup, overshooting by 50F
will get you very damn close depending on the tank your using.
So open chimney, test and overshoot by 50F to simulate closed setup "in my case".

 

[mikepetro]

Impressive......

 

[mikepetro]

On a good Mod, if its TC works well, wattage is not an issue. The Mod should only use whatever watts it needs to reach the temp.

For example, on my builds it normally takes only 20-30 watts to maintain a 420F setpoint. I can set the wattage on 200w and watch it on eScribe. The mod may jump to 90w for a split second (to get to 420 quickly) then it settles down around 20w. The mod wont use more than it needs. If the wick runs dry it uses much less watts to get to 420F, hence you wont get a burnt hit.

With a correct TCR just set the watts real high and let the mod do the work. You dont need to adjust watts, you only need to adjust the temp to get your desired vape.

Think of TC like a cruise control on your car. You set the cruise at 60mph and the gas pedal only uses what it needs to maintain that. Yes, the gas peddle when floored might get you to 120mph, but the cruise control just wont use all the peddle, it only uses what it needs to maintain 60mph.

The reason I highlight this is if you set your max wattage nice and high then it removes one more variable that you dont have to mess with. You are down to simply adjusting the temp to suit your preference.

 

[Punk In Drublic]

@MTL Connoisseur - Well done. Applaud your attention to detail.

Agree with your findings between closed vs open chimney. Open chimney has less influence on how that coil is heating up. Closed, depending on atomizer design, will have direct airflow thus a greater influence.

You have established and verified a correct TCR for the metal you are using. Have you verified your coil is reaching your goal temperature while you are vaping? If direct airflow of the atomizer is influencing that coil to a degree where it is not reaching your goal temp, then the device may not modulate power accordingly when the wicks start to become dry.

According to your tests, with the cap on the coil temperature could only reach 363°F, but with the cap off and the same device settings, the coil reached 485°F. Ignore the incorrect TCR value, we have verified that this value will allow the coil to reach 485°F in open air, so the TCR value is not influencing the closed chimney environment.

 

[mikepetro]

@MTL Connoisseur - Well done. Applaud your attention to detail.

Agreed!

According to your tests, with the cap on the coil temperature could only reach 363°F, but with the cap off and the same device settings, the coil reached 485°F. Ignore the incorrect TCR value, we have verified that this value will allow the coil to reach 485°F in open air, so the TCR value is not influencing the closed chimney environment.

This was part of the reason I brought up the maximum wattage thing. The fact that he could only reach 363°F tells me the mod was being starved for wattage, or else it would have achieved the 400°F. Yes, I know the TCR was wrong, nonetheless it should have reached 400°F if it had enough watts available.

Once a correct TCR is known, there is no harm in allowing the maximum wattage that the mod is capable of. The TC will press the peddle as hard as it needs to to obtain 400°F, even if that only a tenth of the wattage available.

This the mod I am vaping right now. It is a TI clapton coil (its a good strong MTL hit) so it has a lot mass and requires a pretty good kick-start to get it up to temp, but once all that mass heats up it doesnt require much wattage to maintain it. The wattage jumps up to 106w to get to 450 quickly, but then almost instantly drops to 25w and below to maintain the 450F setpoint. I have the max watts set at 150w, it never needed that much, so it didnt use it.

 

[mikepetro]

BTW, once you get this TCR thing nailed down, you might want to look into "Arctic Fox Custom Firmware". It will give you functionality very similar to Escribe if your mods are supported by it.

 

[MTL Connoisseur]

Thank you gents!

Indeed I was getting 363F with closed chimney have I setup the joules/wattage
higher lets say 50j/w It would have reached that goal, if not for some reason then the preheat needs to be set to powerful or powerful+ to give it more power.

The goal was to find the TCR value of coil and now we know that we can adjust to reach the desired vape.

If the experts agree that 350F to 450F is ideal then you don't
need to be outside this range unless your TCR mod is out of calibration

I will try my best to do closed setup with Temco wire even if I have to switch to
Kayfun Prime. just for that extra validation.

 

[MTL Connoisseur]

Just in case some might question the need for all of this,
if you vaping at 400F-450F range you better be accurate for the reason below,
although Mike and now me and others don't agree with some variables of the tests,
the toxic emissions tests still stand.

From the study
very rapid increase of carbonyl emissions as heating temperature increased above 270°C (e.g., from 0.96 ± 0.35 μg formaldehyde/ml-liquid at 270°C to 5.47 ± 0.72 μg formaldehyde/ml-liquid at 318°C for 1:1 PG/GL) [7]. This may explain why large formaldehyde emissions were always detected at higher voltage/applied power (e.g., ≥ 9 W). The results in published studies (see S1 Fig) differed substantially at lower voltage/applied power (e.g., 4–6.5 W). Our results suggest that high temperatures (e.g., up to 276°C for a HR coil at 4 V) were possible even at low voltage/applied power due to temperature non-uniformity and performance variation among different coil heads.

215C (419F)
Additionally, it should be noted that even at an average temperature of 215°C, which was observed from our measurements for 1:1 PG/GL at relatively low applied powers and is within the reported range of operating temperatures for generating “pleasant” vapors [6], the formation rate of formaldehyde and thus the daily exposure of frequent e-cigarette users could still be significant and reach a level of concern for cancer risk

Conclusions
This study established a simple and straight-forward protocol to systematically measure e-cigarette coil heating temperature under dry, wet-through-wick, and full-wet conditions. In addition to applied power, the composition of e-liquid, and the devices’ ability to efficiently deliver e-liquid to the heating coil are important product design factors effecting coil operating temperature. Precautionary temperature checks on e-cigarettes under manufacturer-recommended normal use conditions may help to reduce the health risks from exposure to toxic carbonyl emissions associated with coil overheating.

 

[mikepetro]

LOL......

I went down that road already. It was painful.

I started this thread below, 309 pages, and it is what prompted me to do most of my atty measurements.

New studies find carcinogens in vg and pg at high temps, even in tootle puffers

I even did some formaldehyde testing, albeit at a crude level, to prove this.

@classwife HELP ME..........

 

[MTL Connoisseur]

LOL......

I went down that road already. It was painful.

I started this thread below, 309 pages, and it is what prompted me to do most of my atty measurements.

New studies find carcinogens in vg and pg at high temps, even in tootle puffers

I even did some formaldehyde testing, albeit at a crude level, to prove this.

@classwife HELP ME..........

Interesting! Seen some of the EvolvDNA guy speech and he seems to say our mods are safer which it is but NOT in the manner he was saying it.

Example what TCR value does DNA’s come with stock these days? What wire or coil is it measured to?
Who is microscopically building their wires?!
Because each spool of wire will have different TCR even if it is the same brand.

From the test I did above the device is saying “you are safe my friend, keep vaping on that 400F goodness” while the ****** is delivering 530F to my mouth!
Well add in airflow and the ****** still delivering
At least 470F+.

DNA or not you dial in the TCR value for the spool you use regardless for peace of mind, if the thing is set to deliver 400F it should deliver 400F in open chimney setup.
You want that 400F in closed chimney you only need to crank up the wattage and preheat settings regardless of tank used.
And then and only then after wattage+preheat change you are not getting satisfaction should you try 410F and so on.

I will be careful here, some tanks/attys use cheap center pin that could deliver power differently. Test with that “specific open tank” is what I should have said.
And clean center pins on atty and mods with Noalox or similar product.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[MTL Connoisseur]

According to your tests, with the cap on the coil temperature could only reach 363°F, but with the cap off and the same device settings, the coil reached 485°F. Ignore the incorrect TCR value, we have verified that this value will allow the coil to reach 485°F in open air, so the TCR value is not influencing the closed chimney environment.

Edit: keep in mind your talking here about TCR 93 and that is incorrect value for both closed/open chimney setup. The mod is not getting any measurement correct “or should I say NOT responding to the resistance correctly” TCR is important value in anyway you look at it. But we established temperature drop when the draw is taking place.

I liked this question, in my mind I am trying to figure out away to say it out-loud.

So if want to be true to "closed chimney" environment I would "in my case" leave TCR at
88 overshooting by 60F "from open chimney prospective", so that when a draw happens it will go down to 400F range "inaccurate method +\-".

But I decided on the safer alternative, let it under-shoot "from the closed chimney prospective" and compensate with wattage and/or preheat setting to bring temperature up.

So open chimney setup
1- True to mod screen 400F is 400F in thermocouple (wick is soaked with e-liquid throughout the tests you done previously to establish your correct open chimney TCR).
2- You take draw it will go down to 350-360F
3- By adjusting wattage/preheat UP it will push the mod/coil to 400F.
50w or joules is plenty to bring the temp up to 400F when draw happens.
depends if you like an early punch throat hit or late punch
that I play with wattage and preheat to figure out.

Put differently, If I have my tank ready to vape, and press the fire button
without taking a draw:

• It will fire to 460F+ "Closed chimney calibration for TCR 88"

400F is no longer 400F here because TCR is set to 88 and that is overshooting,
your mod is saying it is 400F while in reality it is 460F+

• It will fire to 400F "Open chimney calibration for TCR 80" < I choose this.

add wattage and/or preheat as u see fit.

 

[mikepetro]

Example what TCR value does DNA’s come with stock these days? What wire or coil is it measured to?
Who is microscopically building their wires?!
Because each spool of wire will have different TCR even if it is the same brand.

As I mentioned before, it is NOT the Mod Makers responsibility to know every TCR, they have no clue what wire you are using. Many Mods, including DNAs, come with some default TCRs for common wire, but nonetheless they dont know what wire you will actually use or how true the alloy is to the spec. Thats why they all offer the ability to input your own unique TCR.

The responsibility of publishing the TCR resides with the wire MFG, they are the only ones who can say with any certainty.

Because each spool of wire will have different TCR even if it is the same brand.

Unless the TCR is for pure Grade 1 Titanium.......

 

[mikepetro]

I liked this question, in my mind I am trying to figure out away to say it out-loud.

So if want to be true to "closed chimney" environment I would "in my case" leave TCR at
88 overshooting by 60F "from open chimney prospective", so that when a draw happens it will go down to 400F range "inaccurate method".

But I decided on the safer alternative, let is under-shoot "from the closed chimney prospective" and compensate with wattage and/or preheat setting to bring temperature up.

So open chimney setup
1- True to screen 400F is 400F in thermocouple
2- You take draw it will go down to 350-360F
3- By adjusting wattage/preheat UP it will push the mod/coil to 400F.
50w or joules is plenty to bring the temp up to 400F when draw happens.
depends if you like an early punch throat hit or late punch
that I play with wattage and preheat to figure out.

Put differently, If I have my tank ready to vape, and press the fire button
without taking a draw:

• It will fire to 460F+ "Closed chimney calibration for TCR 88"

400F is no longer 400F here because TCR is set to 88 and that is overshooting,
your mod is saying it is 400F while in reality it is 460F+

• It will fire to 400F "Open chimney calibration for TCR 80" < I choose this.

add wattage and/or preheat as u see fit.

Call me a purist, but I cant condone open chimney testing as being anywhere near as close to closed atty in accuracy.

Nothing competes with seeing 400F on your Mod and 400F on your meter while actually vaping the atty.

 

[MTL Connoisseur]

Call me a purist, but I cant condone open chimney testing as being anywhere near as close to closed atty in accuracy.

Nothing competes with seeing 400F on your Mod and 400F on your meter while actually vaping the atty.

Very valid Mike!
It comes down to personal preference, If for some reason I am not happy with level of
heat I am getting, you bet I will go to TCR 88 for this specific coil

 

[Brewdawg1181]

Thread looks really interesting, but have to come back when I have time.
Just dropping a breadcrumb here (notifications never seem to work on watched threads unless I post).

 

[gsmit1]

I love threads like this.

 

[Punk In Drublic]

Edit: keep in mind your talking here about TCR 93 and that is incorrect value for both closed/open chimney setup. The mod is not getting any measurement correct “or should I say NOT responding to the resistance correctly” TCR is important value in anyway you look at it. But we established temperature drop when the draw is taking place.

I liked this question, in my mind I am trying to figure out away to say it out-loud.

So if want to be true to "closed chimney" environment I would "in my case" leave TCR at
88 overshooting by 60F "from open chimney prospective", so that when a draw happens it will go down to 400F range "inaccurate method +\-".

But I decided on the safer alternative, let it under-shoot "from the closed chimney prospective" and compensate with wattage and/or preheat setting to bring temperature up.

So open chimney setup
1- True to mod screen 400F is 400F in thermocouple (wick is soaked with e-liquid throughout the tests you done previously to establish your correct open chimney TCR).
2- You take draw it will go down to 350-360F
3- By adjusting wattage/preheat UP it will push the mod/coil to 400F.
50w or joules is plenty to bring the temp up to 400F when draw happens.
depends if you like an early punch throat hit or late punch
that I play with wattage and preheat to figure out.

Put differently, If I have my tank ready to vape, and press the fire button
without taking a draw:

• It will fire to 460F+ "Closed chimney calibration for TCR 88"

400F is no longer 400F here because TCR is set to 88 and that is overshooting,
your mod is saying it is 400F while in reality it is 460F+

• It will fire to 400F "Open chimney calibration for TCR 80" < I choose this.

add wattage and/or preheat as u see fit.

In this case your inputted TCR value and prescribed temperature has allowed the coil’s true temperature to reach 485°F. Understand that the device is not taking any temperature at all. It is reading resistance and calculating limits based on your inputted values. The device will calculate a delta resistance based on the cold resistance of your coil, your inputted TCR value and your goal temperature.

So, a coil resistance of 1.22 ohms, an inputted TCR value of 0.00093 and a goal temperature of 400°F (205°C). The delta resistance should be calculated as 1.424 ohms. The device will not allow the rise in resistance to exceed this.

With the cap off, regardless of the values you have entered, your device is preventing the coil resistance from exceeding what ever the delta resistance was calculated as. The temperature you have measured was 485°F. If the temperature did not increase beyond this with time, then we can assume the delta resistance was met.

Given the same values are used with your cap on test, then the same delta resistance still applies, this does not change. However – because we have added the influence of direct air, your coil is not reaching the same delta resistance, which you have confirmed with your measurement of 363°F. The influence of direct air is not allowing the coil resistance to hit the limits based on your inputted values.

So despite you were working with the incorrect TCR value, you have establish that your atomizer has great influence on how that coil heats up. If your atomizer did not influence this, then you cap on test should have also reached 485°F

Under true vaping conditions your coil must at the very least meet the delta resistance limit that was calculated by your device. If it fails to do this, then the device may not modulate power correctly.

 

[MTL Connoisseur]

We are getting close although I put it layman’s term.

If TCR is set to 93 then the mod and thus the thermocouple are reading wrong values.

In the case of the mod 93 TCR it is overshooting greatly from open chimney reading AND
Undershooting greatly from closed chimney draw condition and that is proven by by the TCR93 first tests.

Now the REAL result I’m looking for is after testing this open chimney setup for correct TCR 80, is to do a direct draw in closed setup and see if the Mod is doing its Job and pushing that power to atty/coil after I took a draw to keep me at 400F from the “forces” pushing it down in the opposite direction.

I will do this before testing the temco wire which I got last night.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk