TC-TCR Temperature Control TCR Value Solution for Different Coils/Mods

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MTL Connoisseur

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When you say the mod will not allow the atty to pass 1.424ohm as the mod does not care about temp it is reading your TCR value against the cold coil value. We are going into TFR territory here and that is why most use Steam Engine dna file to upload to their device and call it a day.

As Mike said TCR is less accurate by nature than TFR so let’s not complicate it and I have locked the cold resistance anyway.

What we are aiming for should be in the current reading:
TCR is 80 The mod is saying 400F, the thermocouple is saying 400F, no overshooting happening. When I take a draw is it still holding 400F or not and how to address that issue if it happens.


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MTL Connoisseur

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Just to elaborate further.
Right now I said TCR 80 more than I like to LOL

I am vaping at 400F great mixture of heat/flavor
I went down to 390F now we getting nice heat/flavor
I went down to 380F now we getting cooler/nice flavor
I went down to 370F is not my cup of tea but I can chain vape this baby all night long [emoji16]
I went down to 360F this is bed time vape while watching Netflix [emoji13]

This sensation cannot be true if I set my device to 400F and in reality I’m vaping at 350F or 450F.

I hope this makes sense and again I will gladly and happily disapprove myself if I see it drop and not come backup to 400F.

I am seeking answers not setting concrete barriers or trying to prove a point.
This is my TCR and this is my temperature and while at it here is my sensation above [emoji38]


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mikepetro

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TCR is 80 The mod is saying 400F, the thermocouple is saying 400F, no overshooting happening.

Assuming the thermocouple and the Mod BOTH said 400F while you were vaping it, then IMHO you nailed it.

Edit to add: I guess my point is that I think comparing open chamber to closed atty and trying to draw conclusions from the relationship is going down the rabbit hole. The relationship is probably not linear, and probably varies.

Why do open chamber if you have the ability to do closed atty? We know that closed atty nails it. Open chamber just introduces "noise".

Now, if open chamber is all that is possibly, it certainly is better than burnt cotton. But I wouldnt draw conclusions about the relationship between open and closed and trust it.
 
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Punk In Drublic

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When you say the mod will not allow the atty to pass 1.424ohm as the mod does not care about temp it is reading your TCR value against the cold coil value. We are going into TFR territory here and that is why most use Steam Engine DNA file to upload to their device and call it a day.

As Mike said TCR is less accurate by nature than TFR so let’s not complicate it and I have locked the cold resistance anyway.

What we are aiming for should be in the current reading:
TCR is 80 The mod is saying 400F, the thermocouple is saying 400F, no overshooting happening. When I take a draw is it still holding 400F or not and how to address that issue if it happens.


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No we are not entering TFR territory.

Both Temperature Coefficient of Resistance (TCR) and Temperature Factor of Resistance (TFR) operate in the same fashion. If we know the metals cold resistance, we can calculate the metals temperature due to any changes in that resistance based on the metal TCR/TFR values. As the metal heats, it’s resistance increases. As it cools, resistance decreases. This is not vaping technology but has been adopted by the vaping industry. TFR is a more accurate method, but that will be dependent on the metal used. Because you are using TCR, lets ignore TFR.

A vape device does not read the coil temperature at all. If it had such functions we wouldn’t need TCR values. Set temp and forget.

With a vape device a delta resistance is calculated based on your coils cold resistance, the TCR value that was inputted and the prescribed temperature. Example:

0.5 ohm coil, TCR value of 0.001 and a prescribed temperature of 200°C yields a delta resistance of 0.587 ohms.

The device will apply power until resistance rises to 0.587 ohms to where the device will then modulate power to maintain that 0.587 ohms. Airflow and wick saturation have an effect on how quickly the coil rises in resistance. Less airflow and saturation the greater the rise, but the device still does not allow the resistance from exceeding 0.587 ohms.

Now lets say our 0.5ohm coil’s true TCR value is 0.00088, but we continue to use 0.001 and set a goal of 200°C. The device calculates a delta resistance of 0.587 ohms. This is a +0.087 ohms increase based on the calculated values.

BUT…because the coils true value is 0.00088, +0.087 ohms results in a true temperature of 224°C. The delta resistance is maintained but due to the incorrect TCR value our temperature is also incorrect.

This displays why your temperature measurements did not match that of the device and stresses the importance of using a correct TCR value should one wish to vape at an accurate temperature. To note, the accuracy of coil resistance and reading the rise in resistance also skews the results.

Now lets look at your case and analyze why such a large discrepancy between temperatures with cap on vs cap off?

Ignore the incorrect TCR settings. The coils true TCR was established to be 0.0008. With the cap off you were able to reach 485°F. With your 1.22 ohm coil, and a true TCR of 80 this is an increase of +0.22 ohms. Or 1.44 ohms total.

With the cap on your coil could only reach 365°F, that is only an increase of 0.15 ohms or a total of 1.37 ohms. The incorrect TCR value of 93 plus a set temperature of 400°F allowed the coil to reach 1.44 ohms but did not allow it to reach 1.37 ohms. Why?

So either the airflow of your atomizer is preventing the coil to rise in resistance (hence temperature) or your thermocouple was incorrect. To me, this discrepancy stresses the importance of taking the measurements again with the cap on.

But if you are content with how it vapes, then that is up to you but understand that if your coil is not reaching the delta resistance, then you are not hitting your objectives and your device will not modulate power accordingly.

That post was waaay too long! I need a drink!
 

Punk In Drublic

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The open chamber can have less cooling influence on the coil than the closed chamber. Because air within an atty can be very directed, it can have a much larger cooling effect.

The plot I posted on the first page proves this to a certain degree (see below). Same coil, same power, same duration but different airflow yielded a difference in the rise of resistance.

Blow vs draw.jpg
 

Punk In Drublic

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I have read over that thread in the past. Will have to take some time and read the lab reports. But it is Friday, I have promised myself no lab report readings on Fridays!

But @MTL Connoisseur – something that has caught my attention with your results is why the TCR value of 90 yielded a higher temperature than 93. This should have been the opposite unless other changes were made?
 
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MTL Connoisseur

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But @MTL Connoisseur – something that has caught my attention with your results is why the TCR value of 90 yielded a higher temperature than 93. This should have been the opposite unless other changes were made?

Very good observation that I wanted to bring up at a later time,
Could be a spike reading or the thermocouple being wedged between
two coils throw out an incorrect value, If you notice I am reading Max's throughout
the tests so I would notice abnormal spikes and I only noticed such "unusual" reading maybe
once or twice and that is one of them, I usually turn off the thermocouple and on again to clear memory for a new test.
 
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Punk In Drublic

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Very good observation that I wanted to bring up at a later time,
Could be a spike reading or the thermocouple being wedged between
two coils throw out an incorrect value, If you notice I am reading Max's throughout
the tests so I would notice abnormal spikes and I only noticed such "unusual" reading maybe
once or twice and that is one of them, I usually turn off the thermocouple and on again to clear memory for a new test.

Perhaps the thermocouple was also incorrect for the cap on test.

The benefits with DNA’s and Arctic Fox compatible devices is we can use software to plot the coils performance in real time. I gave an example above and @mikepetro gave a couple of examples as well of the Escribe software for DNA’s.

The benefit with this is we can then see the coils rise in resistance (there are many other benefits) which can reveal many things. Using this software I have seen the effect airflow has on a coil (above example). But I have never seen the effects being so vast as like your cap off vs cap on test. I do not own a Kayfun so not sure how much the airflow influences coil temp. But suspect it is not as much as your tests.
 
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MTL Connoisseur

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I am getting ready to take out the "kit" to test my current coil that is rated TCR 80,

But just to elaborate on Kayfun Lite 2019, it is the only atty I have that you can
shut the airflow completely from 0.00mm to 1.80mm, And I have it open maybe one turn,
so very tight airflow almost giving a whistle sound.
Kayfun [Lite] 2019

Looking into Arctic Fox right now and it says it gives functionality like DNA & YiHi
but YiHi has SQ profile that you can set using their software,
Is SQ profiles on YiHi similar in nature to Escribe DNA software or should I also use Arctic Fox with my YiHi?
 
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MTL Connoisseur

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Punk In Drublic

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I am getting ready to take out the "kit" to test my current coil that is rated TCR 80,

But just to elaborate on Kayfun Lite 2019, it is the only atty I have that you can
shut the airflow completely from 0.00mm to 1.80mm, And I have it open maybe one turn,
so very tight airflow almost giving a whistle sound.
Kayfun [Lite] 2019

Looking into Arctic Fox right now and it says it gives functionality like DNA & YiHi
but YiHi has SQ profile that you can set using their software,
Is SQ profiles on YiHi similar in nature to Escribe DNA software or should I also use Arctic Fox with my YiHi?

I personally would test the Kayfun just as you would while vaping it – what ever that airflow opening is. This will result in the “closest to” environment that you usually vape. If your results are vastly different than your temp tests without the cap, then I would think you need to investigate further. BUT…that is just my opinion.

Every environment is different. I have seen coils not meeting their objective once airflow is applied. Pretty sure I have screen grabs of this, will have a look.

I do not own a Yihi, so do not even know what SQ means. Someone mentioned Yihi software in another thread, I asked if it was similar to Escribe and was met with silence. I interpreted that as NO!

Do not own an Arctic Fox device, but have seen their software suite. It is very similar to Escribe. Extremely useful IMO.
 

Punk In Drublic

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Well surprise we have a cat and his appetite is never ending, he literary eats 6-7 cans a day :2c::D

7 cans?? LOL. I limit mine to 1 can and some kibble. UNLESSS there is bacon in the fridge. She knows and will sit in front of the fridge starring in anticipation that when I open the fridge I will cook her some bacon.

They are intriguing creatures. If they ever develop opposable thumbs, the human race is doomed!
 

MTL Connoisseur

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Just finished uploading, I don't know how the videos will be shown
"you might have to click a link to it".

Bear with me on this, I will post pictures first of the condition of the coil we built
last time I posted pictures, so it is the same coil for 1.22ohm reading when it was brand new.

Please take notice of the changes I am doing in the video, take notice of the new ohm reading,
and it is important to note how the behavior of the coil changes when I switch from TCR 80 to standard "average" TCR rating for SS wire which is TCR 88. TCR 88 seems to ramp up the coil quicker for this build. Also take note it is no longer a "fresh build" and there is carbon build up on the coil. notice the change in wattage "joules" and the change on preheat levels and how the coil is responding to them!

Repeat the video if you have too and notice the behavior.
I am eagerly waiting for your feedback!

I keep remembering what @mikepetro said "Expect a range within 50F" so if the range of 50F up or down is considered accurate? Did I find the correct TCR value? If so then my safe bet moving on would be
1- Test the wire build in open chimney environment <Input TCR value here as a base standard.
2- Test in closed chimney environment to make sure your not "out of range"

What I learned from this video is closed chimney is a "Must do process" if you have
everything already.

Coil condition
cTz0p6z.jpg

TeDnEIh.jpg

tWmARbI.jpg


New reading 1.18ohm!
lUwohM4.jpg

ZI5pOWb.jpg


Video 1:
Dropbox - Video Feb 07, 7 30 18 PM.mov - Simplify your life
Video 2:
Dropbox - Video Feb 07, 7 38 20 PM.mov - Simplify your life
 
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Punk In Drublic

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Aug 28, 2018
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Just finished uploading, I don't know how the videos will be shown
"you might have to click a link to it".

Bear with me on this, I will post pictures first of the condition of the coil we built
last time I posted pictures, so it is the same coil for 1.22ohm reading when it was brand new.

Please take notice of the changes I am doing in the video, take notice of the new ohm reading,
and it is important to note how the behavior of the coil changes when I switch from TCR 80 to standard "average" TCR rating for SS wire which is TCR 88. TCR 88 seems to ramp up the coil quicker for this build. Also take note it is no longer a "fresh build" and there is carbon build up on the coil. notice the change in wattage "joules" and the change on preheat levels and how the coil is responding to them!

Repeat the video if you have too and notice the behavior.
I am eagerly waiting for your feedback!

I keep remembering what Mike said "Expect a range within 50F" so if the range of 50F up or down is considered accurate? Did I find the correct TCR value? If so then my safe bet moving on would be
1- Test the wire build in open chimney environment <Input TCR value here as a base standard.
2- Test in closed chimney environment to make sure your not "out of range"

What I learned from this video is closed chimney is a "Must do process" if you have
everything already.

Coil condition
cTz0p6z.jpg

TeDnEIh.jpg

tWmARbI.jpg


New reading 1.18ohm!
lUwohM4.jpg

ZI5pOWb.jpg


Video 1:
Dropbox - Video Feb 07, 7 30 18 PM.mov - Simplify your life
Video 2:
Dropbox - Video Feb 07, 7 38 20 PM.mov - Simplify your life

Awesome. :thumb: No shots of the cat though. Makes a world of difference. ;)

I never seen the thermocouple read at or near room temperature. If you just let the coil sit for a few minutes, does the thermocouple read room temp?
 

MTL Connoisseur

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Feb 1, 2020
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Awesome. :thumb: No shots of the cat though. Makes a world of difference. ;)

I never seen the thermocouple read at or near room temperature. If you just let the coil sit for a few minutes, does the thermocouple read room temp?


My bad :D

And yeah the Thermocouple is reading correctly room temp +/- 1F
From amazon website: 【High Accuracy】Accuracy: ±1.5%
ke5PFsu.jpg
 
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