The "200w" questionare!

[beckdg]

you guys charging batts in these chargers that charge each slot independantly...this is NOT marrying batteries.In order to be truly married batteries must be balanced to each other.None of the 18650 chargers I have seen do this

Please do explain why balance charging individual cells that are not in packs trumps thoroughly and accurately charging each cell individually.

Keep in mind, my username on RC forums is 2genewb... HP DPS 600PB How To Mod for charging power supply. - Electric Motors, ESCs, batteries, etc. @ URC Forums

Tapatyped

 

[fenderstrat]

because otherwise you are not doing anything.if you are discharging batteries with different IR they are going to be slightly different when pulled out of the device.If you then charge them individually and not balanced to each other what are you doing...you are doing nothing but charging them as individuals...thats what marrying is treating individual cells as a pack..NO???.....then I return the question...if the cells are discharged individually and charged individually,how are they considered married
If you pull cells out of the device and put the first one in the charger its starts its cycle by the time you put the 3rd battery in the first one is charging while the 3rd one is being "read" by the charger.

are you saying this is the same as active balance charging 3 batteries to each other to the point that their V are almost identical during the entire charge cycle??
and again I ask what is marrying? is it not treating individual cells as if they were 1,thats the definition

and to answer Yes I feel active balance charging batteries to each other far out trumps charging them completely seperatly

 

[Boden]

 

[beckdg]

because otherwise you are not doing anything.if you are discharging batteries with different IR they are going to be slightly different when pulled out of the device.If you then charge them individually and not balanced to each other what are you doing...you are doing nothing but charging them as individuals...thats what marrying is treating individual cells as a pack..NO???.....then I return the question...if the cells are discharged individually and charged individually,how are they considered married
If you pull cells out of the device and put the first one in the charger its starts its cycle by the time you put the 3rd battery in the first one is charging while the 3rd one is being "read" by the charger.

are you saying this is the same as active balance charging 3 batteries to each other to the point that their V are almost identical during the entire charge cycle??
and again I ask what is marrying? is it not treating individual cells as if they were 1,thats the definition

and to answer Yes I feel active balance charging batteries to each other far out trumps charging them completely seperatly

First off the audience here isn't measuring and matching IR. So truly married isn't happening. Period.

Balance charging is for series configuration only. When used in series one end of the pack depletes faster than the other. During charging this is corrected by measuring and adjusting at each junction.

If the cells are charged individually, they should all come hot off the charger @ 4.2V approximate.

Already balanced by default.

Your $1,000 fma power lab and power supply is cumbersome, unneeded and overkill for this hobby.

Want the best? Get an Xtar for vaping.

Tapatyped

 

[fenderstrat]

"if the cells are charged individually,they come off the charger at 4.2 already balanced by default"
if this were true balance charging would be non existant
I dont remember mentioning any type of charger specifically but my powerlab was 179.00 new and my power supply is a converted server ps it was free
and the statement still stands batteries that are not charged together are not truly married charging them seperately does nothing to eqaulize them
acurately charging each cell individually is not marrying them
making unecessary comments about equipment I said nothing about does not change the fact that what I said is still correct.I see where this is headed so I am done

 

[JMarca]

Proper balance charging can be done on chip as long as the board supports it. That said I'm not sure a 40 dollar mod is going to have those features (no pun intended to anyone). But if you charge a battery on a DNA 200 for example it will read you the exact voltage on each cell in real time and you'll be able to physically see it balance out the battery cells in EScribe. In part that's why users have been complaining it takes so much longer to charge on this board compared to others, mainly because of the time it takes to discharge cells back down to even out the voltage.

 

[kbeam418]

you guys charging batts in these chargers that charge each slot independantly...this is NOT marrying batteries.In order to be truly married batteries must be balanced to each other.None of the 18650 chargers I have seen do this

As long as the batteries are at the same voltage and have the same number of charge cycles it doesn't matter. You can't charge two batteries from one controller safely. The Wismec (DNA 200) should balance the cells throughout usage in any ways, that's one of the many reasons why I prefer Evolv over Yihi they do a lot of battery monitoring.

 

[beckdg]

"if the cells are charged individually,they come off the charger at 4.2 already balanced by default"
if this were true balance charging would be non existant
I dont remember mentioning any type of charger specifically but my powerlab was 179.00 new and my power supply is a converted server ps it was free
and the statement still stands batteries that are not charged together are not truly married charging them seperately does nothing to eqaulize them
acurately charging each cell individually is not marrying them
making unecessary comments about equipment I said nothing about does not change the fact that what I said is still correct.I see where this is headed so I am done

Actually your power lab and how everyone should use one was the first post I saw from you.

And again, you're confused as to what balance charging is and what it's for.

It's actually better to charge the cells individually as opposed to putting undue stress on them by discharging batteries with higher voltage in a pack while still charging the pack. (Balancing)

By charging them individually, you're only charging them. No added stress.

Balance chargings ONLY purpose is to MATCH VOLTAGE of cells that are PERMANENTLY AFFIXED to each other IN A PACK.

Which charging each cell individually to 4.2V DOES EXACTLY without undue stress.

Balance charging is ONLY for cells in a pack that CAN'T be removed to charge properly.

It's not like balancing puts exactly the same mah back in every cell. The final charge state and cutoff is determined by voltage... that's what balance charging matches... that's what terminates the charge on individual cells... voltage.

It's really that simple.

Tapatyped

 

[Submarine123]

So I won't order from Ecig-city again if my life depended on it. I ordered last Wensday night from both Ecig-City and Illumin. Illumin had my package out Thurs and even with Christmas it was here by Monday. Ecig City didn't get the package out til 5 days later (Monday night) and with New Years it probably won't get here til Fri or Sat. Both websites are based Cali.

I'll stick with ECIG.com.

*Thankfully I got the Koopor Plus and TFV4 Mini for only $60 shipping and all. It's all I could afford but I expected more out of of an American company in terms of shipping.

 

[fenderstrat]

so now you are totally contradicting yourself........first I never mentioned anything but V I never once mentioned MAH......second and heres where everything you said gets thrown out the window......if all batteries are balanced by default as long as they are charged to 4.2 V then if you had 3 batteries charged on 3 different chargers and they are all charged to 4.2 then they are married... do you see how ridiculous this is....if all cells were automatically balanced to each other just by being charged to 4.2 again balance charging firmware would not exist.You are too worried about making me look bad and not using logic or common sense.......it is just not true that all cells are balanced by default if they are charged to 4.2Also it has been proven that balance charging improves the performance and cycle life of lipos,I dont see it being so much of a strain on the cells that it makes them perform better and last longer

 

[beckdg]

so now you are totally contradicting yourself........first I never mentioned anything but V I never once mentioned MAH......second and heres where everything you said gets thrown out the window......if all batteries are balanced by default as long as they are charged to 4.2 V then if you had 3 batteries charged on 3 different chargers and they are all charged to 4.2 then they are married... do you see how ridiculous this is....if all cells were automatically balanced to each other just by being charged to 4.2 again balance charging firmware would not exist.You are too worried about making me look bad and not using logic or common sense.......it is just not true that all cells are balanced by default if they are charged to 4.2Also it has been proven that balance charging improves the performance and cycle life of lipos,I dont see it being so much of a strain on the cells that it makes them perform better and last longer

Can't say I didn't try.

Good luck bud.

Tapatyped

 

[fenderstrat]

ok its all good and sorry for the thread hijack ,although it was entertaining

 

[Lowjumper]

I've now got 12 HE4's, and while I try to keep them as matched pairs, it is becoming harder to remember which pairs are older then others.

Is there a way to test for the CDR amp drop as they age?

Pick up a imax-B6 on ebay (18 bucks/give or take). with it you can charge, discharge, get capacity of your batteries. Great for checking discharge capacity of new batteries from less than reliable sources. ebay amazon etc.
It won't tell you how old they are but it will tell you how used they are. Then label them, dyno guns are cheep.

 

[fenderstrat]

the imax is an excellant charger especially for the price.im not 100% sure but that charger may even give you IR numbers

 

[Submarine123]

So for sure I am supposed to charge my 18650's before first use?

And on the VC2, the amp meter always reads at 0.5 amps, I'm not sure what that's about as a 2500 mah seems to need to only be charged at less than 0.25 amps or something like that and there's no adjustable settings on this. Anyone know? I'm thinking the guage is just for what power is running through the power chord but I'm unsure.

 

[beckdg]

so now you are totally contradicting yourself........

You have to assume and understand some details to understand that's the farthest from the truth.

first I never mentioned anything but V I never once mentioned MAH......

Fatal flaw. You're not even taking into account what shouldn't have to be said if you're ever going to have this conversation and be taken seriously. For cells to be coupled (married) they first MUST (ABSOLUTE MUST) be matched in capacity and current handling. Ideally you gather a ton of the same cells and test IR AND CAPACITY to pair the closest matches for the healthiest pairing and/or packs.

THIS SHOULD HAVE BEEN ASSUMED BEFORE ENTERING A CONVERSATION / DEBATE AT THIS LEVEL.

second and heres where everything you said gets thrown out the window......if all batteries are balanced by default as long as they are charged to 4.2 V then if you had 3 batteries charged on 3 different chargers and they are all charged to 4.2 then they are married...

SEE ABOVE

do you see how ridiculous this is....

More than you can imagine.

if all cells were automatically balanced to each other just by being charged to 4.2 again balance charging firmware would not exist.

I...

I just...

Dunno what to say...

Except...

How do you imagine we'd ensure 4.2V on each cell in a lipo pack at the conclusion of each charge otherwise?

Individual cells... can be charged to 4.2V INDIVIDUALLY

You are too worried about making me look bad and not using logic or common sense.......

Don't flatter yourself.

it is just not true that all cells are balanced by default if they are charged to 4.2

Ummm...

Yes they are.

BUT!!!!!

You're going to have a real hard time pulling 5000mah out of a 5700mah cell that's in series with a 2800mah cell without a serious dissapointment OR... fireworks.



That's why we MATCH cells before we "marry" them.

Also it has been proven that balance charging improves the performance and cycle life of lipos,I dont see it being so much of a strain on the cells that it makes them perform better and last longer

first you have to understand what balancing is...

Its pulling current from higher volt charged cells while charging the pack still.

Yes, balancing is beneficial to lipo packs. They're series connected cells that will wander in charge state from one another slightly cycle after cycle.

Lithium cells can't be pulled below a given voltage without doing irreparable damage. The electrolyte starts to turn into a non usable crystaline structure instead of the reactive paste that gives the cell it's life.

So we have a low voltage threshold we deny exceeding by utilizing low voltage cutoffs and low voltage alarms.

These units typically measure the battery as a whole.

In the event we use a pack repeatedly without charging each cell to 4.2V each time (or at least regularly) and the positive most cell gets depleted more each time...

Assuming a 2.5V low volt threshold on the cells in this pack before severe damage.

Assuming a 9V lvc setting.

Let's say when the lvc cuts off the 2 other cells read 3.6V. The positive most cell is likely ruined completely @ 1.8V.

Since the batteries can't be removed from the pack to ensure their voltage is as close across the board as possible, lipo mfrs install jstxh (most commonly) connectors with a lead that goes between the + & - of each series cell connection so that each cell can be assured to be as close to 4.2V when the pack is fully charged.

Would you like me to invite Tom from SPC Racing or Danny from SMC racing to confirm my posts to be 100% factual and accurate... and/or critique them in an attempt to embarrass me?

I'm more than willing either way.

Tapatyped

 

[beckdg]

So for sure I am supposed to charge my 18650's before first use?

And on the VC2, the amp meter always reads at 5 amps, I'm not sure what that's about as a 2500 mah seems to need to only be charged at less than 2.5 amps or something and there's no adjustable settings on this. Anyone know? I'm thinking the guage is just for what power is running through the power chord but I'm unsure.

Pretty sure that's supposed to be 0.5 amps.

Tapatyped

 

[WharfRat1976]

So as a Christmas gift to myself, I'm upgrading my sad, old Kanger GayBOX, Sub(par)Tank Na-"NO", EFART battery, Chinese Surprise battery, and most likely my TurtleFire 2-bay charger.

Puns.

Anyway, I have a ton of questions as I am adamant about looking into the research and staying safe. I've already looked at all the blogs and threads you can find on here but still, there's nothing like good old final questions.

MOD:

It's a choice between the Koopor Plus and Wismec 200RX.

Because they're each like $40 roughly if you know where to look.

Question:

Say I used batteries of the exact same caliber for both mods, two in the Koopor and three in the RX200, would the battery life in the RX200 be extended enough to make a huge difference? Any thoughts?

MOD SAFETY:

Let's face it, the RX200 has a blow-up story, and several reports of the LCD getting very hot at around 120w+, and what some builders say is weak wiring. God knows, as this is really one of the first cheap, mass produced triple battery mods.

Question:

Is it really safe? Hoping to hear from the real Mr. Gadgets on this one.

MOD FEATURES:

Both mods are said to have safety features galore, but so do guns.

Question:

Which mod between the two specifically has the best safety features? Personally, I trust SMOK a little more, as not only has one of the Wismecs blown up, but the Wismec chip is by Joyetech, in which their mods are causing their SubOhm tanks to shoot out fire left and right appearantly, because of some sort of mystery chip issue.

BUT I need thoughts.

BATTERIES:

So I've gathered that simply put, ordering a Sony VCT5 from Illumination may just be the absolute only authentic 18650 battery on the planet and that everything else is a sheer gamble. Who knows but I can't find much else in terms of answers.

Question:

For both mods, which I'll be running the TFV4 Mini at 80-140w (I have no doubt the wattage will be going high with that new Octuple Fused Clapton Coil), are the VTC5's the best bet? Anything else?

BATTERY SAFETY:

So both mods do 200w, which is indeed puzzling as really, 2 batteries probably wouldn't manage to pack over 50amps best-case scenario, and 3... 75 at best?

Question:

For those that REALLY know batteries like an expert, is it really even safe to run 200w's on 3 batteries? Much less 2? How in the world does the Koopor do it? 100w per battery... my EFEST doesn't run anything over 35w most of the time. What gives?

CHARGER:

I can get a good deal on a Nitecore D4.

Question:

I've heard that the NiteCore D4 charges different bays based on what mood it's in, basically. Since marrying the batteries is key, wouldn't this divorce them?

Any chargers that are better suited and/or required?

TANK:

TFV4 Mini.

Question:

Has anyone had any problems AT ALL with this version of the tank spitting, leaking, or getting scalding and/or o-rings melting?

Thanks for bearing with these questions! I think this will help a ton of folks stepping into this 200w arena!

All of your questions are answered many different times in the appropriate forums on ECF that pertain to your questions. Research is your friend[emoji3]

 

[beckdg]

Matter of fact

Calling...

@Mooch
@Boden
@IMFire3605

Please look over my last 3 or so posts pertaining to charging batts and simply obliterate me or give a quick fact or fiction.

Thanks guys.

Tapatyped

 

[beckdg]

Matter of fact

Calling...

@Mooch
@Boden
@IMFire3605

Please look over my last 3 or so posts pertaining to charging batts and simply obliterate me or give a quick fact or fiction.

Thanks guys.

Tapatyped

@Ryedan

Tapatyped