The ECA Disclosed
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Wow. I am by no means new to forums but it never ceases to amaze me how fast people can get worked up over rampant speculation. I know this is the age of the internet but it does take some TIME to put together the information to answer many of your questions and to address many of your (our) concerns. Not to mention it IS Saturday.
I will agree that what information that has come out has been somewhat piecemeal and perhaps pre-mature. I suspect that part of the reason for that is someone on this board "leaked" the information that this was in the works and those actually involved felt that they had to say SOMETHING.
As far as I have read (and I could be wrong) there was only one poster who was talking about driving "non-compliant" suppliers out of business. I have read nothing about that from anyone purporting to have any real link to the association, and that thread has been shut down. Also, if enough people are unhappy with how things are run on this particular forum, it would not suprise me at all to see a split off forum to address those people's concerns and needs. I have seen that happen many times and is not necessarily a bad thing.
I also see no reason at all why there can't be multiple organizations to support and look after various interests, from suppliers to consumers etc. etc. If you don't like what ECA comes up with, then start one of your own amongst like minded people and interests. In any case, I sincerely doubt that one, and only one, association will emerge over time. That's just the nature of the beast. There will certainly be a need for country specific organizations, or at the very minimum, country specific chapters or something along that line. I don't think it is reasonable to expect one brand new association to address the issues of every country in questions.
I personally am not willing to throw the baby out with the bath water, at least until I see the colour of the baby's eyes.
I will agree that what information that has come out has been somewhat piecemeal and perhaps pre-mature. I suspect that part of the reason for that is someone on this board "leaked" the information that this was in the works and those actually involved felt that they had to say SOMETHING.
As far as I have read (and I could be wrong) there was only one poster who was talking about driving "non-compliant" suppliers out of business. I have read nothing about that from anyone purporting to have any real link to the association, and that thread has been shut down. Also, if enough people are unhappy with how things are run on this particular forum, it would not suprise me at all to see a split off forum to address those people's concerns and needs. I have seen that happen many times and is not necessarily a bad thing.
I also see no reason at all why there can't be multiple organizations to support and look after various interests, from suppliers to consumers etc. etc. If you don't like what ECA comes up with, then start one of your own amongst like minded people and interests. In any case, I sincerely doubt that one, and only one, association will emerge over time. That's just the nature of the beast. There will certainly be a need for country specific organizations, or at the very minimum, country specific chapters or something along that line. I don't think it is reasonable to expect one brand new association to address the issues of every country in questions.
I personally am not willing to throw the baby out with the bath water, at least until I see the colour of the baby's eyes.
And then throw the baby out
??????? Am I missing something? Was there some kind of contructive point you wished to make?
You know, at some point I really have to wonder about the value of participating in forums such as these. (I know this may be off topic and if a moderator wants to move it, that's cool by me). The amount of time one has to take to sift through the drivel to get to the meat can be quite off putting.
Quite a while ago, I taught myself to sit back and think whether or not what I am posting is actually going to contribute something to the discussion or provide information to interested parties. I try to make myself sit back before I hit that "post" button and think about whether or not what I have to say really needs to be said. I can't say that I always follow my own rule, but I try.
Quite a while ago, I taught myself to sit back and think whether or not what I am posting is actually going to contribute something to the discussion or provide information to interested parties. I try to make myself sit back before I hit that "post" button and think about whether or not what I have to say really needs to be said. I can't say that I always follow my own rule, but I try.
I know a house-
It's not a squirrel house
it's not a donkey house
-it's not a house you'd see-
and it's not in any street
and it's not in any road-
oh it's just a house for me Me ME.
congratulations on being the first person in the entire thread to fully take it off topic by .....ing about others taking threads off topic...bravo... get with the program and stop your forum moderation crusade
[FONT="]"If you are a manufacturer, supplier, or reseller, please know that you will be required to follow some very specific guidelines regarding your marketing claims. You will also be required to start a transition into safer manufacturing, labeling and bottling practices and a push towards better testing. It is imperative that you understand the ECA believes that self regulation is a viable option for this industry and if you are not willing to participate in a fashion that has been set out by your fellow suppliers and by the consumers, we wish you the best."
This is the second paragraph of the ECA disclosed post. That sounds kind of like a join us or else scenario. There are a lot of questions regarding things that the ECA and the ECA members have written that keep getting the same answer, we will tell you in due time. They don't have to lay out the specifics, but it would be wise to let us know a direction and be able to answer questions regarding their own statement before they release it.
I also believe that if they do want all the buy in's from all the types of people and businesses that they are looking for, they should not have made this a suppliers only business (non-profit or not). There should be people from every type represented on their Board and have input into the direction of the company.
kevin
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Sorry for taking it of topic, and I would fully expect that moderators would cut this out, and make a new thread if need be. Of course, I "could" have just posted a few more times just to get my "post a new thread" privileges, but I chose not to.I thought I might say something that I felt needed to be said.
I do not want, nor welcome any further discussion on the subjects I have raised,
This is just an example of the problems of an online forum. It is so easy to get side tracked, because that is how human conversation works.
Sigh. I'd be perfectly happy to have all of my posts deleted in this thread, due the the importance of the subject matter, but I am just getting so TIRED of weeding through stuff to get a real answer to a question.
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I am a new supplier and can tell you that the ECA is genuine in its concerns there is quite a mountain they are approaching I am still not a paying member but they allow every supplier the chance to listen to every meeting.
I don't think this has a chance in hell if suppliers and manufacturers and consumers don't come to some common ground. We all love these wonderful devices lets all just work together a bit more to figure out how we are gonna protect our passions.
I don't think this has a chance in hell if suppliers and manufacturers and consumers don't come to some common ground. We all love these wonderful devices lets all just work together a bit more to figure out how we are gonna protect our passions.
My problem is that they posted a "disclosure" when there wasn't anything actually decided to disclose. It's very suspicious of a trade association and they are asking for consumers to donate to help pay the costs of operating. There are a couple of them that have and are still currently using the tactics that they are claiming to be against. If they let forum smart asses like myself scare them into retraction, what do you think that the media is going to do to them when they go public and lobby for change? If they get a national spot on TV for example and they act like this and it's uncovered that they have been doing all the things that are considered unethical, we're screwed. We need a strong voice to represent us, someone who isn't a small business. I've been pretty hard and I think everyone needs to do the same. It isn't candy and lollipops out there. We're talking FDA and corporate agenda. Nicowater had just made some big distribution deals and had quite a bit invested. They hired good lawyers to represent them and got stopped cold. That was in 2002. FDA is flexing their muscles pretty frequently these days. We need strong representation and a trade association isn't going to do it. Any type of group like this should be scrutinized.
*sigh*
Perhaps I should have kept my mouth shut!
It's pretty straight forward - we already do impose restrictions on what suppliers state. Always have.
We've deduced what we think are acceptable claims based on an ethical standpoint (no misleading claims - i.e., health/smoking cessation) and on our non-professional interpretation of the law, as it stands (mainly in the US, since most of the traffic comes from the US).
So, what we will now be getting is some expert advice on what suppliers can/can't do in order to stay within the right side of the law.
Now some will say: "well we already know what the law says and we are clever enough to interpret it" - to which I say: "that may well be the case, and if nothing else is flagged up, there'll be nothing that needs to be changed".
What I am seeking is clarity, in order that ECF continues to be a place that furthers e-smoking, and doesn't jeopardize its future.
If it is found that the wording in some sites has the potential to be damaging to the future of e-smoking, I will work with the suppliers to have this changed. Surely that's in everyone's interests?
Just spent 40 min quoting and replying and then LOST the post before it SENT!!!!!
Angry now... so in summary...
1- www.VapersClub.com is NOW open to all links from other local groups forming in person support meetings for vaping. Once you have a local chapter with a website (or a forum on here) please feel free to send me a link and I will set up the VapersClub.com by location so people can find local meetings. 3 or 4 people is enough to start a chapter in your local area.
2- I volunteer to proofread for all ECA posts and letters.
3-I volunteer myself to be an ECA board member with "no vested interest" although.. I have some interest cause I would like to keep vaping!
4- I think the ECA has intent to join with RTV (though I cannot say for sure cause I am not affiliated) and I expect now that I have stepped up and volunteered myself to be nomintaed to the board.. someone from RTV will also volunteer as a party without vested interest!
5-The intent is to lobby and have lawyers and get testing and research done etc... this is what ALL the suppliers AND consumers need to avoid a ban and NO person can bear the SOLE financial burden of these things... so I believe the purpose of the ECA is to collectively try to achieve these things.
6- I don't think minutes should be posted (the anti's are watching!) but I think a summary of discussed points shoud be posted after each meeting.
7- I think ECA is intended to be run as a democracy... so far everything I have heard leads me to believe decisions are being made as a group.
8 - I believe ECA should consider being international if it is feasible legally... or should work in conjunction with someone overseas to form IECA (International ECA).
9- Trade organization? We cannot expect anyone with NO vested interest to give up their job and work full time for the ECA!!!! That is unrealistic as people have bills to pay. I offered because my jobs are fairly flexible (well.. not the teacher thing.. that I am bound to a certain time.. no pun intended).
10- this is not all about the suppliers... if they get banned.. WE can't BUY and THEY can't sell! So it affects all of us and yes we should contribute financially and give our time if we enjoy vaping!
So instead of .....ing and complaining.. step up people and volunteer your time! Let's nominate some board members who we trust so we can have a better idea what is going on!
Angry now... so in summary...
1- www.VapersClub.com is NOW open to all links from other local groups forming in person support meetings for vaping. Once you have a local chapter with a website (or a forum on here) please feel free to send me a link and I will set up the VapersClub.com by location so people can find local meetings. 3 or 4 people is enough to start a chapter in your local area.
2- I volunteer to proofread for all ECA posts and letters.
3-I volunteer myself to be an ECA board member with "no vested interest" although.. I have some interest cause I would like to keep vaping!
4- I think the ECA has intent to join with RTV (though I cannot say for sure cause I am not affiliated) and I expect now that I have stepped up and volunteered myself to be nomintaed to the board.. someone from RTV will also volunteer as a party without vested interest!
5-The intent is to lobby and have lawyers and get testing and research done etc... this is what ALL the suppliers AND consumers need to avoid a ban and NO person can bear the SOLE financial burden of these things... so I believe the purpose of the ECA is to collectively try to achieve these things.
6- I don't think minutes should be posted (the anti's are watching!) but I think a summary of discussed points shoud be posted after each meeting.
7- I think ECA is intended to be run as a democracy... so far everything I have heard leads me to believe decisions are being made as a group.
8 - I believe ECA should consider being international if it is feasible legally... or should work in conjunction with someone overseas to form IECA (International ECA).
9- Trade organization? We cannot expect anyone with NO vested interest to give up their job and work full time for the ECA!!!! That is unrealistic as people have bills to pay. I offered because my jobs are fairly flexible (well.. not the teacher thing.. that I am bound to a certain time.. no pun intended).
10- this is not all about the suppliers... if they get banned.. WE can't BUY and THEY can't sell! So it affects all of us and yes we should contribute financially and give our time if we enjoy vaping!
So instead of .....ing and complaining.. step up people and volunteer your time! Let's nominate some board members who we trust so we can have a better idea what is going on!
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Spikey, did you miss the post on doyouvape.com ? Looks like the ECA already has a sponsored club site for charters, etc... Will yours be competing or simply another outlet?
Btw, I think most of the .....ing on this thread can be chalked up as scrutiny. Scrutinizing on a forum is a necessary as well as validating and vetting especially when a person, group or association as it might be comes in and demands action without a shred of substance. Because its an "Social Internet" atmosphere professionalism is usually lost. .....ing is well... Complaining, while running your mouth without substance. Actually, I can do both quite well But I prefer not to
Cheers to you for stepping up. I want to step up too (as I stated before) I just need to see a little more from ECA so that I know what I'm really getting into. I do think it will all work out. They just need to organize and get all their ducks in a row before spouting off to the world...
Btw, I think most of the .....ing on this thread can be chalked up as scrutiny. Scrutinizing on a forum is a necessary as well as validating and vetting especially when a person, group or association as it might be comes in and demands action without a shred of substance. Because its an "Social Internet" atmosphere professionalism is usually lost. .....ing is well... Complaining, while running your mouth without substance. Actually, I can do both quite well
But I prefer not to Cheers to you for stepping up. I want to step up too (as I stated before) I just need to see a little more from ECA so that I know what I'm really getting into. I do think it will all work out. They just need to organize and get all their ducks in a row
before spouting off to the world...Spikey,
Dang, woman, as a newbie and a heterosexual female (and a married one at that) I have had 0 interest in Miss ECF until now. You've got MY vote!!!!!
Getting back on topic, I agree with you 100% though I also agree with the need for scrutiny. I don't think there will be a problem about that, considering some of the folks here.
Dang, woman, as a newbie and a heterosexual female (and a married one at that) I have had 0 interest in Miss ECF until now. You've got MY vote!!!!!
Getting back on topic, I agree with you 100% though I also agree with the need for scrutiny. I don't think there will be a problem about that, considering some of the folks here.
I think that many people have taken my posts on this subject as ".....ing and complaining". I will say that the post made by a poster that was asking for an anti-trust behavior is what really fired me up. I'm not going to link because I feel that the OP of that thread has realized the implications of said statement and now understands why some people got worked up about it.
I am very against trade organizations as a whole because of how much potential they have to get involved in very illegal activity. Because of many posts from people claiming affiliation to this group and from other people in the forum that don't fully understand the implications and the sensitive nature that a trade association poses to a market. I will say that some of my posts were rants. I was fired up by many posts that were basically asking for anti-trust behavior. There are many reasons why most donations to these groups are not tax deductible. I am adamantly against these types of groups, actively fight them in my own community and would much rather see a consumer based non-profit get organized and become an official entity to accept donations and give an unbiased board to distribute said funds for the purposes of educating public, furthering research and official campaigning in the interest of us the consumer. This is a tall order and if RTV does make itself an official entity for that purpose, I'd donate in a second. A trade association is unable to do this by nature. I urge everyone who is concerned about losing our right to this wonderful hobby of ours to scrutinize and keep these organizations on the path of lawfulness. Many posts have been very concerning to me of late about actions that are being taken or that people want to be taken.
A very good explanation of the concerns we should all have is here Antitrust Laws & Trade Associations - Electronic Transactions Association and should be taken very seriously. I have posted that link in another thread but thought that it was very relevant to the topic and the posts that have been made here as well. I feel that the ECA was absolutely not ready for any kind of disclosure and knowing that these competitors have been collaborating behind closed doors for a few months now has me genuinely concerned. I feel my rants did indeed go to the .....y side but were all based upon that concern. Actions like those described in article can be devastating to a fledgling industry such as this and could have long term effects as to how the market develops.
I am very against trade organizations as a whole because of how much potential they have to get involved in very illegal activity. Because of many posts from people claiming affiliation to this group and from other people in the forum that don't fully understand the implications and the sensitive nature that a trade association poses to a market. I will say that some of my posts were rants. I was fired up by many posts that were basically asking for anti-trust behavior. There are many reasons why most donations to these groups are not tax deductible. I am adamantly against these types of groups, actively fight them in my own community and would much rather see a consumer based non-profit get organized and become an official entity to accept donations and give an unbiased board to distribute said funds for the purposes of educating public, furthering research and official campaigning in the interest of us the consumer. This is a tall order and if RTV does make itself an official entity for that purpose, I'd donate in a second. A trade association is unable to do this by nature. I urge everyone who is concerned about losing our right to this wonderful hobby of ours to scrutinize and keep these organizations on the path of lawfulness. Many posts have been very concerning to me of late about actions that are being taken or that people want to be taken.
A very good explanation of the concerns we should all have is here Antitrust Laws & Trade Associations - Electronic Transactions Association and should be taken very seriously. I have posted that link in another thread but thought that it was very relevant to the topic and the posts that have been made here as well. I feel that the ECA was absolutely not ready for any kind of disclosure and knowing that these competitors have been collaborating behind closed doors for a few months now has me genuinely concerned. I feel my rants did indeed go to the .....y side but were all based upon that concern. Actions like those described in article can be devastating to a fledgling industry such as this and could have long term effects as to how the market develops.
Thanks, I tried to click on your photo to send you a PM but I can't figure it out.
Anyway, hubby took care of it. I just ordered a bunch of 1 oz bottles (Dark blue...Pretty!
) with droppers to transfer it into, so I only need him to open it once for me. I have a question:
If the suppliers will not be putting things like "Cherry" or "Butterscotch" (Mmmmm) onto the bottles, how will they do it? Put a "master list" somewhere on the website with "Tobacco" as "flavor 1" and so on, then number the bottles or what?
Just curious.
Thanks again for your offer of help with my personal problem with my hands. Just shows me how far all you guys are willing to go to help.
RetinaBurn, I'm a newbie to e-cigs and to this forum but I wanted to speak up in support of your postings in this thread. Despite all the good intentions of the involved suppliers - and I do believe they are good intentioned, I think at this point, judging from the "disclosure" that they are in desperate need of professional advice. In my opinion your posts seem to be the closest they're receiving to good advice and legitimate criticism.
While reading the "disclosure" I was reminded of the old Garland/Rooney movie formula where everything was solved by "Come on kids - let's put on a show". It's quaint and sweet, but not very effective and the government agencies they're hoping to take on are not amateurs likely to be persuaded by fumbling good intentions.
Ahhh, sucks when that happens! Sometimes, when I remember, I'll copy my entire post to the clipboard before hitting send -- has saved my keister a few times!
I'm up for this, too.
Ditto, count me in!
Hear, hear. I can also build websites, design flyers, create databases (online, too -- very useful for surveys, and giving multiple parties immediate access to the results), and similar geeky stuff. Ready and willing to do anything of that nature.
As I understand it, DoYouVape is supposed to be the official meeting/gathering site, but Spikey is offering to post links to other local websites if we request it. This is a common practice in web admin. It boosts your results in search engines, too -- the more places your link appears on the WWW, the higher it will rank.
I had the same question. Anybody got a clue?If the suppliers will not be putting things like "Cherry" or "Butterscotch" (Mmmmm) onto the bottles, how will they do it? Put a "master list" somewhere on the website with "Tobacco" as "flavor 1" and so on, then number the bottles or what?
~~Cheryl
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