The ECA Disclosed
- Thread starter ECA
- Start date
- th_trl_thread_readers 0
- Status
You mean like TW and ECOpure? Doh!
Where have we heard that before? I've got a drum of oil in my garage so I'm putting up the barricades!!;-)
So, if it is not illegal in Bulgaria or Poland or Egypt to make claims regarding 'healthier than smoking' or to promote it as a quit smoking device, would suppliers have to change their marketing/websites etc so that they would be marching in step with the US? Would they not be allowed to participate on this forum unless they conformed? If the answer is that they would have to comply or be 'personae non gratis' then you might as well make this forum for US residents only. What if other countries' regulations turn out to be more stringent than the US, will all of the US 'subscribers' then have to meet these standards?
Nazi Germany? Sounds just like the US to me.
It's obvious that the 2 messianistic groups are still sleeping in separate beds. Why do I get a vision of the WWWrestling fiasco with various groups springing up purporting to be the ultimate authority? What happens when someone sets up the Professional Personal Vaporiser Society with a few sponsoring manufacturers/suppliers and claims to represent the Trade?
Skeletons in the cupboard? Bloog has them hanging by the front door! It's always a good move to have a tidy up before you invite all and sundry to inpect your house, especially when you are preaching on behalf of, or not on behalf of - I'm not sure anymore, the ECA.
If I were Jason I would be insulted by the insinuations in the ECA 'announcement' that stated, "You will also be required to start a transition into safer manufacturing, labeling and bottling practices and a push towards better testing." As far as I am aware, TW & Intellicig were the first to go CHIP compliant, have their liquid tested and have satisfied the Trading Standards Office in the UK. I know for sure that there are still suppliers selling carts/liquid in non-compliant packaging. Would such companies as TW & Intellicig see any reason to join an organisation that has launched itself without being properly prepared and that cannot even afford a proof reader to weed out the embarassing mistakes in their 'manifesto', let alone the numerous 'formerly known as official' posts from an ECA representative that were not very well written. Professional means getting it right first time.
Glad you found it worthwhile to post.
The ECA or RtV are both organisations with very small memberships and limited support that are purporting to represent both the Vaping Industry and consumers. Unless the major manufacturers and suppliers all come on board then their credibility is more than questionable and could work against their aims when the opposition point that out. It's all very well to say everyone should join but given what I have seen so far I wouldn't think of joining as a consumer and can understand why suppliers are noticable by their absence. Of the suppliers listed, how many employ more than 5 staff? Are there any 'majors' on the list? The big companies will probably not even be aware/bothered about the ECA as they will be looking after their own interests.
Alan.
Nicely said. It's unfortunate the ECA does not have someone with your abilities to convey whatever their message is. The 'official' release was quite bad.
What exactly do you know about RtV Alan? You allege that it's 'messianistic' and that it's one 'with very small memberships and limited support that are purporting to represent both the Vaping Industry and consumers'
Do your own interests extend beyond fanboy for certain UK traders?
Do your own interests extend beyond fanboy for certain UK traders?
im going to start off with asking a very simple question to the "ECA" that you seem to be avoiding:-
WHY HAVE YOU STOPPED USING THE TERM "PERSONAL VAPOURISER"?
ive had many heated debates over the last month or so with members of the "ECA" who have been ramming "personal vapouriser" down evryones throat because i dared to say it wouldnt make any difference what you called E-CIGS. in this whole thread i dont recall any of those self righteous "ECA" members referring to E-CIGS as a "personal vapouriser".
why the sudden turnaround?
the "ECA" also said that they was going to release a statement to explain the "very urgent rally for help". instead they just released a statement attempting to explain who they were and their guidelines.
what i dont get is why this unelected group of suppliers feel they can dictate how other suppliers should conduct their business.
yes 100%, suppliers should not be making false claims and they should be doing all they can to make the use of liquid nicotine as safe as possible. but in my opinion, an unelected group of suppliers dont have that right to dictate it to them.
and asking for donations from consumers that are ultimately going to be used to protect YOUR businesses is simply taking the piss. i think you will find that everybody who has ever purchased anything from you HAS ALREADY made their donation. you simply did not notice it in your 2 - 300% profits. for a long time you suppliers have been making money hand over fist when everyone knows the mark up on e-cig products. and that is fair enough........im sure that 99% of consumers on here knew full well how much profit you make but were still more than happy to part with their cash because they trust and respect you and your good service.
you suppliers have made terrific profits and good for you! you saw a niche, took advantage and made a nice wad of cash. but now its down to YOU to invest YOUR money in saving YOUR livelihood.
an excellant prime example which someone else also mentioned is Jason Cropper who owns Totally Wicked and TECC. he has pretty much done all he can to get proper testing and approval on the e-liquid that he sells. im sure that he has spent many, many thousands of pounds on doing it as well. did he then ask his customers to pay for the testing? no he bloody well didnt. his prices are amongst the highest, so without a doubt he has made a shed load of money from e-cigs and e-liquid. but the difference is that he put money from his profits back into making his gear as safe as possible, without asking for any donations from consumers.
i really dont think that the "ECA" should be made up of suppliers. epecially when they are basically saying to other suppliers "conform or be shunned". you say its going to be non profit making but i think you will find that if you promote "ECA" approved suppliers then eventually all the noobs will think that they are safer to purchase from which will in turn give you more profits! in the long term, the established suppliers of the "ECA" will be reaping the benefits whilst all the little guys trying to make a few quid will be shut out.
if it had been Kate and TBob who had started the "ECA" and was asking consumers to join them in creating a list of regulations on how suppliers should or should not sell then i would have viewed this in a completely different light.
and on that subject, i would like to know why suppliers ignored Kate and Right to vape when she wrote to them but all of a sudden have started "ECA" in what seems like a blind panic?
and SJ, im very dissapointed and quite offended that you are now shunning the UK laws that you seemed so happy to quote when banning Kate and feel that you must now conform to US suppliers just because they are the majority. i really hope its not because they must also bring in the most revenue.
SJ, dont get me wrong mate.......i think you are a decent guy who has provided us with a great forum, but to shun your fellow countrymen just because the american suppliers outnumbered the UK ones is just wrong in my opinion. i dont even know why you are involved!? you run a community forum.......why does the supplier owned "ECA" have to be linked to it? the forum wont be closed down by the FDA etc if e-cigs are banned!?
WHY HAVE YOU STOPPED USING THE TERM "PERSONAL VAPOURISER"?
ive had many heated debates over the last month or so with members of the "ECA" who have been ramming "personal vapouriser" down evryones throat because i dared to say it wouldnt make any difference what you called E-CIGS. in this whole thread i dont recall any of those self righteous "ECA" members referring to E-CIGS as a "personal vapouriser".
why the sudden turnaround?
the "ECA" also said that they was going to release a statement to explain the "very urgent rally for help". instead they just released a statement attempting to explain who they were and their guidelines.
what i dont get is why this unelected group of suppliers feel they can dictate how other suppliers should conduct their business.
yes 100%, suppliers should not be making false claims and they should be doing all they can to make the use of liquid nicotine as safe as possible. but in my opinion, an unelected group of suppliers dont have that right to dictate it to them.
and asking for donations from consumers that are ultimately going to be used to protect YOUR businesses is simply taking the piss. i think you will find that everybody who has ever purchased anything from you HAS ALREADY made their donation. you simply did not notice it in your 2 - 300% profits. for a long time you suppliers have been making money hand over fist when everyone knows the mark up on e-cig products. and that is fair enough........im sure that 99% of consumers on here knew full well how much profit you make but were still more than happy to part with their cash because they trust and respect you and your good service.
you suppliers have made terrific profits and good for you! you saw a niche, took advantage and made a nice wad of cash. but now its down to YOU to invest YOUR money in saving YOUR livelihood.
an excellant prime example which someone else also mentioned is Jason Cropper who owns Totally Wicked and TECC. he has pretty much done all he can to get proper testing and approval on the e-liquid that he sells. im sure that he has spent many, many thousands of pounds on doing it as well. did he then ask his customers to pay for the testing? no he bloody well didnt. his prices are amongst the highest, so without a doubt he has made a shed load of money from e-cigs and e-liquid. but the difference is that he put money from his profits back into making his gear as safe as possible, without asking for any donations from consumers.
i really dont think that the "ECA" should be made up of suppliers. epecially when they are basically saying to other suppliers "conform or be shunned". you say its going to be non profit making but i think you will find that if you promote "ECA" approved suppliers then eventually all the noobs will think that they are safer to purchase from which will in turn give you more profits! in the long term, the established suppliers of the "ECA" will be reaping the benefits whilst all the little guys trying to make a few quid will be shut out.
if it had been Kate and TBob who had started the "ECA" and was asking consumers to join them in creating a list of regulations on how suppliers should or should not sell then i would have viewed this in a completely different light.
and on that subject, i would like to know why suppliers ignored Kate and Right to vape when she wrote to them but all of a sudden have started "ECA" in what seems like a blind panic?
and SJ, im very dissapointed and quite offended that you are now shunning the UK laws that you seemed so happy to quote when banning Kate and feel that you must now conform to US suppliers just because they are the majority. i really hope its not because they must also bring in the most revenue.
SJ, dont get me wrong mate.......i think you are a decent guy who has provided us with a great forum, but to shun your fellow countrymen just because the american suppliers outnumbered the UK ones is just wrong in my opinion. i dont even know why you are involved!? you run a community forum.......why does the supplier owned "ECA" have to be linked to it? the forum wont be closed down by the FDA etc if e-cigs are banned!?
Thanks, but I have plans to set up an independent PR company with Retina_Burn, we could clean up!! ;-)
Alan.
You're talking to someone who once owned 300+ websites in the internet marketing industry. I was quite successful until the Internet God we know as Google changed a few things. Anyway, I'm still partially in the business and know a thing or two about linkbacks, page rank, site popularity, etc...
I realize you weren't aware of my personal "web" experience and I only mention it to help clarify my original question.
I want to know if Spikey's site will compete with or join DoYouVape.com as an ECA sponsored site or even as a directory that supports the ECA. My question has nothing to do with with promoting other sites. It's a little deeper than that.
My reasoning is this. Currently I am the admin for a group of ecig users. We have a social group on ECF, a website that isn't developed yet and are actively pursuing strategies for more exposure. We are organizing and setting up meetings while at the same time growing pretty fast.
I would love to have our group listed with Spikey's site. I like Spikey a lot and commend her for the stance she's taken here with the ECA. But I'm not going to list our group there unless I know the ramifications of what I'm getting our group into.
I won't list it if doing so means that our group also endorses the ECA. Not now anyway. Once we learn more about the ECA and what exactly it means for the ecig community then this viewpoint may change. I'm certainly not going to ask my group to make a move everyone is not comfortable with.
I've previously stated that I too will step up and support the ECA when and if the time is right. That time will be right when I have a better understanding of the ECA. My actions will be via marketing with a new concept for the community. This project is already in the works and I will use it to help support and promote the ECA but only if the ecig community as a whole is on board with what the ECA stands for - whatever that is. I have not been convinced yet.
Last edited:
You should start a third electronic smoking coalition dedicated to passing legislation that electronic cigarettes can be legalized only if they are manufactured in bright colors that could never be mistaken for a real cigarette and possibly used to hold up a convenience store.
She said, arrogantly...
What fighting? A little light "poking" never hurt anyone - hehe.
this question has still not been answered:-
WHY HAVE YOU STOPPED USING THE TERM "PERSONAL VAPOURISER"?
WHY HAVE YOU STOPPED USING THE TERM "PERSONAL VAPOURISER"?
You know what... I wasn't going to get involved in this bullsh*t you have turned this into... but seeing as many are spewing falsities instead of reading up on the subject... I might as well start a sh*t storm.
To answer your question: Personal Vaporizer is slang. Unfortunately for all of us... in 2004 when they hit the market, they were called electronic cigarettes. Also, whether anyone wants to believe it or not, Personal Vaporizer lands the ecig into the medical device category faster than electronic cigarette does. So call it what you want or what you will...
As pv's made their way across the world, they were known as electronic cigarettes. Instead of spending money on changing the public perception from electronic cigarette to personal vaporizer, suppliers who were able to make the conference decided not to fight a war on semantics, but to fight what was more important and that is what is happening right now... a bill that is being pushed through the US Congress that would take away our ecigs, our dissovables, anything that has been put on the market since Feb of 2007.
As far as a group of suppliers pushing others out of the market, that is not the case. What it is, is a group of suppliers who have gotten together, pooled their money for legal help and decided that those who wish to keep making bullsh*t health claims that give the FDA the right to stop their stuff, simply cannot be helped. Lawyers have a hard time making a good case against the FDA when a supplier is in BLATANT violation of the rules, no matter how ridiculous we think those rules are. So yes, in order to participate in the association you will have to stop making health and quitting claims.
As far as wanting association members to uphold some basic cleanliness principles and product safety standards, well if you are wanting cheap sh*t with no safety, then by all means, go buy it. No one forces you to purchase from one vendor over another. What a shame that consumers cry for safety standards and when suppliers get together to work towards that goal, you piss all over that. Sad. Very sad.
And a further note on testing: Some of us have been in contact with doctors, non-smoking groups, the FDA, you name it... and have specifically asked what type of testing needs to be done. You know what the answer is? They ignore the question. Yep. They don't want testing done because they KNOW what we all know and that is regardless of if the electronic cigarette is safer than tobacco cigarettes, you can't get a full on ban of "smoking" and "nicotine" if there is a safe delivery device. Yep. It's the truth. It sucks, but it is real. We also know that no matter what tests we do have done, when we present them they will say "well you should have done this test". It is a vicious cat and mouse game.
As far as consumers being invited to participate... well... Suppliers are damned no matter what we do by certain members of this forum. Months ago, I introduced the idea of an association of SUPPLIERS and boo hoo, hiss whine... Why can't consumers be involved? This is crap! I want to be a part of it... why are you excluding us? So, as a group we thought about it and decided that consumers WOULD be a great addition and what better way to get a truly transparent industry up and running but to have consumer input and backing? We come back, tell you we are thrilled to have you involved and you rape us.
As far as allegations of not listening to Kate or RTV - That is a blatant lie. I am VERY active at RTV. I have Riddle's suggested list of things she would like to see done. I am VERY aware of what RTV wants as I have been a part of the conversation since the site went live. But igetcha... I getcha! You haven't been active over there, not even 1 post, so I am pretty sure you don't know wtf you are talking about.
The bottom line is this: Setting up an association is no easy task. What needs to happen is not an easy task. I have never done this before and neither have any of the other suppliers. We are seeking help and guidance from those who do know better. Laying all of our cards on the table so that the enemy can see... yeah.. that's f*ing brilliant.
As someone mentioned this IS a David vs. Goliath battle. But guess what? David won. This is not a losing battle. And for some suppliers, whether you choose to believe it or not, this is seriously more than about losing a business. Do you honestly think that once the FDA has control over nicotine, it won't be a very short time before nicotine prohibition begins? Do you honestly think they won't come after your caffeine next? What about your freedom of choice? Does that not bother anyone at all? Seriously! This is some serious sh*t! And what is worse, is if you follow the money trail, it all leads to one very large US manufacturer of tobacco...
Sure, I may have asked people to participate in what I felt was a necessary step in this battle. I asked people to write letters to the Senate Help Committee. I didn't ask for a dime. Not one dime. Just time. And apparently, there are a TON of people of this forum who have more time than they know what to do with. By my asking for people to be proactive, it forced the ECA to come out before it probably needed to, but the members on this forum are important in this fight. You are the most educated group of people on the ecig in the entire world and it is imperative that you educate all of those around you so the ecig isn't swept away by big tobacco!
Oh well... doesn't matter since they aren't going to discuss the bill anyways! Yep. There is such a push to see this tobacco bill go through that Senator Harry Reid pulled a fast one and is sending this bill straight to the floor for a vote. Did you know it was only in the House committee for two days? Why is the biggest tobacco legislation in US history being pushed through in a quiet and sneaky way? Why isn't there good discussion? This is what our voices need to be asking.
Either way, for those who are adamantly opposed to the idea of us fighting back and think we should just sit here and take it up the as*... well good for you. Either help or shut the .... up until you can say "I told you so".
For those of you who actually read through this, thank you... There is movement forward and for those who have supported the idea of an association both publicly AND privately, progress is being made, steps are being taken according to the law on the advice of lawyers and lobbyists and your support is not going unnoticed.
To answer your question: Personal Vaporizer is slang. Unfortunately for all of us... in 2004 when they hit the market, they were called electronic cigarettes. Also, whether anyone wants to believe it or not, Personal Vaporizer lands the ecig into the medical device category faster than electronic cigarette does. So call it what you want or what you will...
As pv's made their way across the world, they were known as electronic cigarettes. Instead of spending money on changing the public perception from electronic cigarette to personal vaporizer, suppliers who were able to make the conference decided not to fight a war on semantics, but to fight what was more important and that is what is happening right now... a bill that is being pushed through the US Congress that would take away our ecigs, our dissovables, anything that has been put on the market since Feb of 2007.
As far as a group of suppliers pushing others out of the market, that is not the case. What it is, is a group of suppliers who have gotten together, pooled their money for legal help and decided that those who wish to keep making bullsh*t health claims that give the FDA the right to stop their stuff, simply cannot be helped. Lawyers have a hard time making a good case against the FDA when a supplier is in BLATANT violation of the rules, no matter how ridiculous we think those rules are. So yes, in order to participate in the association you will have to stop making health and quitting claims.
As far as wanting association members to uphold some basic cleanliness principles and product safety standards, well if you are wanting cheap sh*t with no safety, then by all means, go buy it. No one forces you to purchase from one vendor over another. What a shame that consumers cry for safety standards and when suppliers get together to work towards that goal, you piss all over that. Sad. Very sad.
And a further note on testing: Some of us have been in contact with doctors, non-smoking groups, the FDA, you name it... and have specifically asked what type of testing needs to be done. You know what the answer is? They ignore the question. Yep. They don't want testing done because they KNOW what we all know and that is regardless of if the electronic cigarette is safer than tobacco cigarettes, you can't get a full on ban of "smoking" and "nicotine" if there is a safe delivery device. Yep. It's the truth. It sucks, but it is real. We also know that no matter what tests we do have done, when we present them they will say "well you should have done this test". It is a vicious cat and mouse game.
As far as consumers being invited to participate... well... Suppliers are damned no matter what we do by certain members of this forum. Months ago, I introduced the idea of an association of SUPPLIERS and boo hoo, hiss whine... Why can't consumers be involved? This is crap! I want to be a part of it... why are you excluding us? So, as a group we thought about it and decided that consumers WOULD be a great addition and what better way to get a truly transparent industry up and running but to have consumer input and backing? We come back, tell you we are thrilled to have you involved and you rape us.
As far as allegations of not listening to Kate or RTV - That is a blatant lie. I am VERY active at RTV. I have Riddle's suggested list of things she would like to see done. I am VERY aware of what RTV wants as I have been a part of the conversation since the site went live. But igetcha... I getcha! You haven't been active over there, not even 1 post, so I am pretty sure you don't know wtf you are talking about.
The bottom line is this: Setting up an association is no easy task. What needs to happen is not an easy task. I have never done this before and neither have any of the other suppliers. We are seeking help and guidance from those who do know better. Laying all of our cards on the table so that the enemy can see... yeah.. that's f*ing brilliant.
As someone mentioned this IS a David vs. Goliath battle. But guess what? David won. This is not a losing battle. And for some suppliers, whether you choose to believe it or not, this is seriously more than about losing a business. Do you honestly think that once the FDA has control over nicotine, it won't be a very short time before nicotine prohibition begins? Do you honestly think they won't come after your caffeine next? What about your freedom of choice? Does that not bother anyone at all? Seriously! This is some serious sh*t! And what is worse, is if you follow the money trail, it all leads to one very large US manufacturer of tobacco...
Sure, I may have asked people to participate in what I felt was a necessary step in this battle. I asked people to write letters to the Senate Help Committee. I didn't ask for a dime. Not one dime. Just time. And apparently, there are a TON of people of this forum who have more time than they know what to do with. By my asking for people to be proactive, it forced the ECA to come out before it probably needed to, but the members on this forum are important in this fight. You are the most educated group of people on the ecig in the entire world and it is imperative that you educate all of those around you so the ecig isn't swept away by big tobacco!
Oh well... doesn't matter since they aren't going to discuss the bill anyways! Yep. There is such a push to see this tobacco bill go through that Senator Harry Reid pulled a fast one and is sending this bill straight to the floor for a vote. Did you know it was only in the House committee for two days? Why is the biggest tobacco legislation in US history being pushed through in a quiet and sneaky way? Why isn't there good discussion? This is what our voices need to be asking.
Either way, for those who are adamantly opposed to the idea of us fighting back and think we should just sit here and take it up the as*... well good for you. Either help or shut the .... up until you can say "I told you so".
For those of you who actually read through this, thank you... There is movement forward and for those who have supported the idea of an association both publicly AND privately, progress is being made, steps are being taken according to the law on the advice of lawyers and lobbyists and your support is not going unnoticed.
Last edited:
That was awesome lacey, I had to read it 2x, the 1st time was a dry run...the second time I had the national anthem playing....
awesome....
awesome....
This is the ECA mission now - "... to educate the public on electronic smoking devices and tobacco harm reduction..."
Electronic Cigarette Association
I hope I'm not adding to the friction here and don't want to get involved with the drama but I'm interested in how the ECF intends to follow it's mission statement?
Electronic Cigarette Association
I hope I'm not adding to the friction here and don't want to get involved with the drama but I'm interested in how the ECF intends to follow it's mission statement?
This is a question that doesn't have a complete answer yet... but I was hoping that for now, RTV would step up to the plate and offer assistance. Vaping clubs would start popping up. BKM mentioned that the Long Island group was very successful and had a peaceful showing and that many restaurant patrons were educated, peacefully. THAT is what I am talking about. Everyone doing a little something that they may or may not have done otherwise. That's all we as consumers can do.
Is RTV willing to sponsor a National Vape Day? Where people congregate in one area of their city? Whether it is a restaurant or on the Capital steps or at a well known park? It takes some organization and people have to be willing to do their part. I have already offered to do Indy. I will even contact all of the media needed for the Indianapolis area. One city makes a blip. 10 cities... now that has the makings of a storm.
And thanks Sun... your love is always much appreciated
We don't need donations. We need peoples time and energy. I will come up with an idea and post it on RTV for the groups input.
For those who aren't members over there... Kate and I both have links in our sigs and you SHOULD stop in and have a read... if you want to participate on a time/energy level, what is stopping you?
Well I see RtV as the voice of the people and ECA the voice of traders and personally welcome any moves to co-operate.
Starting talks at RtV about what you want would be a good first move Lacey. (It's a bit less frantic over there too)
Starting talks at RtV about what you want would be a good first move Lacey. (It's a bit less frantic over there too
)- Status
Similar threads
