The Elephant in the Room

[towelie]

No your just over reacting to what ifs, all will be fine. Just relax and vape.

The other side of that coin is that regulation is an overreaction to what ifs, so that some may feel secure and fuzzy about something.
A good example of this is if you ride a motorcycle and have a DOT approved helmet. The DOT did not test or inspect the helmet, they accepted an application fee and a promise, then issued the rating.

 

[stevegmu]

In a way I think we need FDA approval so that others who know nothing of e-cigs will at least understand e-liquid has been approved by the FDA. I was talking to a smoker at work tonight who is trying to quit. I suggested e-cigs, but he said he read a study saying they are worse than smoking...

 

[Bored2Tears]

Never said there was a benefit to no labeling.

I just don't see much but detriment and confusion from fda food style labeling.

I'd like a new governing body. Would love one consisting of viscount ridley, konstantino Farsalinos and our very own moderator... His name is escaping me currently.

People looking out for our interests and searching for answers. Not people figuring out how to control us and compound the issue with taxes and ridiculous fees.

I wouldn't mind banning specific flavors altogether. But they'd have to prove detrimental first to get my vote. Unfortunately that's not how it works with the current powers that be.

But... If we'd pull together and form an official council, there's a chance it might be recognized as a governing body.

The problem is vaping is too wide spread with too many opposing (and some completely ignorant yet highly voiced) opinions.

Sent from my device.

Hmmm....... I agree 100% with all of this. Now we're actually working toward a solution. In order for the vaping community to come to the table with solutions of our own, we need to have some coherent strategy and be able to make some concessions toward regulation. I don't see how this industry can continue operating like the Wild West.... the powers that be aren't going to stand by and let that go on forever.

I'm not fear mongering. I think most of the flavors available are probably acceptable/ safe to vape within reason. Right now, it's nearly impossible to figure out which flavors exactly are dangerous, and at what levels. And, I don't trust that the e liquid manufacturers have the resources to go testing it all . Most are in their infancy and trying to make a profit.

I am not anti-vape....by any stretch of the imagination. I don't want regulations that are over-reaching. I would just like to know with some degree of confidence that there is a bit of oversight in the liquid I inhale.

 

[FlamingoTutu]

Never said there was a benefit to no labeling.

I just don't see much but detriment and confusion from fda food style labeling.

I'd like a new governing body. Would love one consisting of viscount ridley, konstantino Farsalinos and our very own moderator... His name is escaping me currently.

People looking out for our interests and searching for answers. Not people figuring out how to control us and compound the issue with taxes and ridiculous fees.

I wouldn't mind banning specific flavors altogether. But they'd have to prove detrimental first to get my vote. Unfortunately that's not how it works with the current powers that be.

But... If we'd pull together and form an official council, there's a chance it might be recognized as a governing body.

The problem is vaping is too wide spread with too many opposing (and some completely ignorant yet highly voiced) opinions.

Sent from my device.

Oh... and he's 10. He gets hives from head to toe as well as several internal and very scary reactions. It's alarming how many foods contain milk, dairy, egg or wheat. Every meal has to be special just about.

Our fearless leader, Smokey Joe.

 

[samturdo]

In a way I think we need FDA approval so that others who know nothing of e-cigs will at least understand e-liquid has been approved by the FDA. I was talking to a smoker at work tonight who is trying to quit. I suggested e-cigs, but he said he read a study saying they are worse than smoking...

good point, check this out

Hasn't the FDA already approved e-cigs without even knowing it ???

Take a look at the ingredients in "Nicorette Quickmist"
It contains the 4 ingredients we use to vape, plus a bunch of others we don't need
According to this they have already approved our 4 ingredients

List of excipients
Propylene glycol
Anhydrous ethanol
Trometamol
Poloxamer 407
Glycerol
Sodium hydrogen carbonate
Levomenthol
Mint flavour
Cooling flavour
Sucralose
Acesulfame potassium
Hydrochloric acid
Purified water

For more info: Nicorette QuickMist 1mg/spray mouthspray - Summary of Product Characteristics (SPC) - (eMC)
Who's kidding who here ??

 

[beckdg]

And I'm going out on a limb to say that since those items are listed, I can look into them. I have a better idea than if there is nothing listed at all. For that reason, I'm considered an idealist by beckdg.

It wasn't meant as an insult.

But yes, thinking that you can look up "Natural flavors" found on your ingredient list (as a single example) and think the answer gives you a clue is idealism at its finest. Maybe on a small scale and because you have no idea the scope of those two words yet, but still currently applies.

I'm guessing you wouldn't presume that actual ground up car tires was a "Natural flavor".

Sent from my device.

 

[Lessifer]

In a way I think we need FDA approval so that others who know nothing of e-cigs will at least understand e-liquid has been approved by the FDA. I was talking to a smoker at work tonight who is trying to quit. I suggested e-cigs, but he said he read a study saying they are worse than smoking...

I'm not against regulation or FDA approval. Like you, I think it would be beneficial. My problem is with the proposed FDA regs and the local government actions that have been taken because of the misinformation out there.

 

[sub4me]

I'm going to step on beckdg's toes here and suggest that he is saying that even with the current labeling requirements, you still don't know all that is in your food. I'm looking at a can of vanilla coke right now and I know that I don't know what is in "caramel color" and "natural flavors."

Since the majority of e-liquid flavoring is food grade flavoring, I'm guessing that if current food labeling guidelines were applied the ingredient list would read:
Vegetable Glycerin, Propylene Glycol, nicotine, natural and artificial flavors.

True however there are other dangerous chemicals included that most aren't even aware of, that's the problem, a big one to me and others. Also I wouldn't put to much weight on the food grade VG, pg, or flavoring always being used, especially in imported liquids.

you should not listen to the ANTZ lies ... I am proof that ecigs work as a successful smoking cessation ... I quit a 30+ year smoking habit with ecigs.

And it wasn't tobacco or menthol that worked ... it was watermelon

I can't be the only one

That's great that it worked for you and I'm not against flavors in anyway. I was just pointing out that if taken away which I don't think it will be we can always use tobacco or menthol flavored liquid. In other words if you really wanted to quit smoking with vaping and if fruit flavors weren't available I think you would have made the tobacco or menthol flavors work for you because when you did smoke that's what you were getiing, not a watermelon flavor. I believe you understand my point just as I understand you preference to watermelon flavor.

 

[beckdg]

Our fearless leader, Smokey Joe.

Good guess, but no.

The one with the list of aw authorized resellers.

Sent from my device.

 

[Ryedan]

I'd like to see if anyone can answer this. A lot of people are claiming that big tobacco is going to use it's money to make sure that it will be the only one able to sell e-cigs. They also maintain that the FDA will ban all flavors, destroying the industry. However, big tobacco knows these products won't sell without flavors. How can you reconcile these two positions?

BT doesn't care if ecigs sell. They have a backup plan which will work better if no one else is selling ecigs

 

[Smann245]

Whether or not my children do something that doesn't hurt anyone else is my business. When their grown it becomes their business. At no point in time is it any of your business.

 

[sub4me]

I'm going to step on beckdg's toes here and suggest that he is saying that even with the current labeling requirements, you still don't know all that is in your food. I'm looking at a can of vanilla coke right now and I know that I don't know what is in "caramel color" and "natural flavors."

Since the majority of e-liquid flavoring is food grade flavoring, I'm guessing that if current food labeling guidelines were applied the ingredient list would read:
Vegetable Glycerin, Propylene Glycol, nicotine, natural and artificial flavors.

True however there are other dangerous chemicals included that most aren't even aware of, that's the problem, a big one to me and others.

you should not listen to the ANTZ lies ... I am proof that ecigs work as a successful smoking cessation ... I quit a 30+ year smoking habit with ecigs.

And it wasn't tobacco or menthol that worked ... it was watermelon

I can't be the only one

That's great that it worked for you and I'm not against flavors in anyway. I was just pointing out that if taken away which I don't think it will be we can always use tobacco or menthol flavored liquid. In other words if you really wanted to quit smoking with vaping and if fruit flavors weren't available I think you would have made the tobacco or menthol flavors work for you because when you did smoke that's what you were getiing, not a watermelon flavor. I believe you understand my point just as I understand you preference to watermelon flavor.

 

[beckdg]

True however there are other dangerous chemicals included that most aren't even aware of, that's the problem, a big one to me and others. Also I wouldn't put to much weight on the food grade VG, pg, or flavoring always being used, especially in imported liquids.



That's great that it worked for you and I'm not against flavors in anyway. I was just pointing out that if taken away which I don't think it will be we can always use tobacco or menthol flavored liquid. In other words if you really wanted to quit smoking with vaping and if fruit flavors weren't available I think you would have made the tobacco or menthol flavors work for you because when you did smoke that's what you were getiing, not a watermelon flavor. I believe you understand my point just as I understand you preference to watermelon flavor.

Fda isn't aware of them either. nor are they interested in finding out. Otherwise banning flavors altogether would far proceed testing them for adverse reactions and chemical compounds.

You're projecting. Given the choice between tobacco flavored and tobacco itself, I'm taking cigs all day every day. I suspect by past threads there are many like me in this regard. I have a One up on them though. I'll vape unflavored. Many of them wont.

Sent from my device.

 

[WillyZee]

That's great that it worked for you and I'm not against flavors in anyway. I was just pointing out that if taken away which I don't think it will be we can always use tobacco or menthol flavored liquid. In other words if you really wanted to quit smoking with vaping and if fruit flavors weren't available I think you would have made the tobacco or menthol flavors work for you because when you did smoke that's what you were getiing, not a watermelon flavor. I believe you understand my point just as I understand you preference to watermelon flavor.

Nope ... I vaped tobacco for about 1/2 hour and have never vaped it since ... it was the watermelon that worked.

both tobacco and watermelon flavored eliquid should be allowed ... there is no reasonable argument to say one or the other shouldn't.

 

[sub4me]

Whether or not my children do something that doesn't hurt anyone else is my business. When their grown it becomes their business. At no point in time is it any of your business.

Unless their breaking the law then it becomes everyone's business.

 

[sub4me]

Nope ... I vaped tobacco for about 1/2 hour and have never vaped it since ... it was the watermelon that worked.

both tobacco and watermelon flavored eliquid should be allowed ... there is no reasonable argument to say one or the other shouldn't.

Not meaning to insult you but I think perhaps you missed my point, however I did understand yours.

 

[FlamingoTutu]

Good guess, but no.

The one with the list of aw authorized resellers.

Sent from my device.

Baditude? Now there's a job for him. Okay, probably wrong again, so, I nominate Smokey Joe and Bad.

 

[beckdg]

Baditude? Now there's a job for him. Okay, probably wrong again, so, I nominate Smokey Joe and Bad.

I figured it out. What a brain block. But no. It was Rolygate.

Sent from my device.

 

[sub4me]

One doctor and a few self annointed experts does not make for scientific facts. For vaping to be widely excepted as a safe thing to do it will need numerous doctors and qualified scientific experts who can offer quantative evidence not speculation that ecigs and liquids are safe because their limited research says so.

 

[Ryedan]

Not everyone is in favor of labeling what's in the e liquid. That's what some of the debate is over. And who is voluntarily disclosing what's in the flavorings and e liquids? How many vendors are self-regulating and disclosing the ppm of these?

All I've stated is that not all regulation is bad.

I am in favor of labeling ingredients, but it's not as simple as it may seem. Here's a list of ingredients in a typical artificial strawberry flavoring:

amyl acetate,
amyl butyrate,
amyl valerate,
anethol,
anisyl formate,
benzyl acetate,
benzyl isobutyrate,
butyric acid,
cinnamyl isobutyrate,
cinnamyl valerate,
cognac essential oil,
diacetyl,
dipropyl ketone,
ethyl acetate,
ethyl amyl ketone,
ethyl butyrate,
ethyl cinnamate,
ethyl heptanoate,
ethyl heptylate,
ethyl lactate,
ethyl methylphenylglycidate,
ethyl nitrate,
ethyl propionate,
ethyl valerate,
heliotropin,
hydroxyphenyl-2-butanone (10 percent solution in alcohol),
a-ionone,
isobutyl anthranilate,
isobutyl butyrate,
lemon essential oil,
maltol,
4-methylacetophenone,
methyl anthranilate,
methyl benzoate,
methyl cinnamate,
methyl heptine carbonate,
methyl naphthyl ketone,
methyl salicylate,
mint essential oil,
neroli essential oil,
nerolin,
neryl isobutyrate,
orris butter,
phenethyl alcohol,
rose,
rum ether,
g-undecalactone,
vanillin,
solvent.

The only item that jumps out at me is diacetyl and I have no idea of the amount. How many of these ingredients does anyone here know details about? What about combinations of them?

We can't print this on a juice bottle, so do we only make it available online? Just listing artificial strawberry flavoring
doesn't cut it.

So, how about real strawberry flavoring instead of artificial:

" "We don't have a good handle on what really is responsible for strawberry aroma, that is why there are no good artificial strawberry flavors, because it is such a strong, complex mixture," Ebeler said.

Strawberry aroma appears to be a mix of many compounds, and identifying all of them, their concentrations and how they interact with other substances in a strawberry has created a puzzle for flavor chemists, according to Ebeler."

And different strawberries have different chemicals in them in different proportions.

At least with artificial flavorings we know exactly what is in them and IMO there are less likely to be any surprises.

As always, the devil is in the details.