The Elephant in the Room

[TomGeorge]

Or ensure adherence via enforcement. Then someone has to pay for the enforcement.

Some folks just can't wait to pay $50 per 30ml

That is exactly my point! how is it feasible?!?!? Everyone is going to just start making their own juice. Im guessing steve would want that inspected too tho...

 

[Jman8]

Fact is liquid sellers can put just about any chemicals in the liquid and legally sell it cause there's no set standards and no matter what you may try to convince yourself of you have no idea what your vaping or the level of safety.

Every seller that I have purchased from has followed a set of standards. How do I know this? Because they have either told me those standards or presented a list of what they are. After trying the 20 or so different vendors that I have, I see the standards are very similar across vendors. I know of at least 2 vaping organizations (manufacturers who purposely organized themselves) partly to mostly for the reason of creating industry wide standards. To claim "there's no set of standards" is undeniably false.

If BG entered with some form of "official set of standards" it is very challenging to see that right now as being legitimate. A vaping enthusiast would likely conclude that those standards are not based on what experienced vapers desire via informed, or reasonably determined standards, but instead notice that the standards were mostly to entirely influenced by political agenda of the ANTZ variety.

Even if a world where all players were being completely honest and sufficient in what standards were being followed and those standard were universally known, it would not be accurate to say that "I know what is in my eLiquid" until one tests that out for themselves. Sending that sample to a lab would not provide knowledge of what is in the liquid, for you would have to rely on trust in the lab to make the appropriate determination. So, even under a regulated market, which is likely to be far short of "everyone is being completely honest" you will not know what is being put into your juice, unless and only if you test your liquid for yourself.

Which you can do in an unregulated market.

 

[Mogar]

just like most industries there are regulations in place to monitor safety, however it only takes a few minutes to find ways around this (ie Time limits on Truck Drivers using log books, they keep multiple log books on hand or modify their TAC system to show them down when they get under 15 miles an hour etc).
When we regulate, it will usually show one thing, the government putting their hands in our pocket. Just like New Mexico's proposed 4 cent per mg nic tax where the bottle of nic I just bought would come out to $2735.00 (35 for the nic, 2700 for tax) are you ready for that???
I suggest more of a community standards where people investigate for themselves where good places are and stick to these locations. It has worked for the past 11 years, why should it not continue on?

 

[Jman8]

Health inspectors and the FDA... How is anything regulated? Through government agencies. To think e-liquid won't be regulated is a joke. It will be.

And to think people won't be harmed in a heavily regulated market is a joke. I bet more (reported) harm will come to vapers in a regulated market than the current less / unregulated one. Not an idle wager I am proposing, if you truly believe regulation will save us from the grave dangers that exist right now, then please take me up on this wager. I beg you.

 

[Jman8]

Oh, and I also believe more kids will vape in a regulated market than in the current, unregulated one. Though not willing to wager on that as I'm not sure who can be trusted with such reports. But I strongly believe more kids will be vaping than do now, and regardless of the adults that come up with standards/regulations, kids will find a way to circumvent the feeble attempts to prevent them access.

 

[skoony]

what kind of standards would be necessary to make e-juice?
the facts are i know of nor have heard of any one becoming sick from
any pathogen in e-juice no matter how horrid some people think
some ones mixing station is.
since all the raw ingredients to make juice are pharmaceutical or food grade
and should be sourced from reputable sources 99.9 % of the standards for
production and manufacture are already done. one just needs to mix the
ingredients in the proper amount to obtain the desired flavor and strength.
you can find recipes on this forum for most flavors you desire in the DIY forums.
any cleanliness standards can be handled at the local level following established
guidelines for the food industry. sorry hypochondriacs one doesn't need a lab sterile
environment to safely make e-juice. the nature of the process and ingredients used
don't require it.
artist who mix there own paints handle far more toxic substances than are in juice.

regards
mike

 

[Jman8]

What if the eCig contains no nicotine?

 

[Topwater Elvis]

What if the eCig contains no nicotine?

IMO, same as if the beer contains no alcohol.

 

[sub4me]

I see successful troll is no less successful.

Food for thought. Every year sams club sends me several warnings to discard some food I bought from there due to contamination found when someone ate a package from the same run as one I bought and wound up in the hospital. I suspect the contamination events that don't land someone in the hospital often go unnoticed.

The other industry that's heavily regulated by the fda.

Regulating an industry doesn't put an inspector over the shoulder of every would be bottler and ingredient hopper. Thinking it's going to stop contamination is a fallacy at best.

Sent from my device.

Still posting insults and personal attacks I see. I don't expect any different form you though.

Yes every year there are recalls of all sorts of foods and goods and believe me if these manufactures had no oversight or FDA, or anyone to answer to you would never see anything recalled. So just imagine the amount of mad cow disease meat you'd be eating, or bacteria ridden food, or dangerous medicine you may consume. I know you understand these points but you'd rather argue nonsense or post insults.

How would you want this regulation to be set up? Would there be an FDA official at every vape shop watching the eliquid be made? or would all juice have to come from a factory of mass produced eliguid so everything is sealed? Or would it just be the FDA watching and inventorying everything the vape shop bought?

I understand your concern but I dont see a feasible way for it to be enforced. If they just write a standard list of what can be used and in what proportions, what is going to stop people from making juice they way that they already do?

I am not trying to be snarky, I am curious what your plan would be

Those are good questions and not snarky ones. The FDA regulations will probably be set along food regulations or similar to them. Sure no one expects an inspector at every vape shop. But by giving a list of approved ingredients, acceptable levels, with clear guideline standards on manufacturing these liquids the consumer will know that E liquids they consume must follow a minimal set of safety standards in what they contain. You mentioned people making their own which is fine. If some want to buy E liquid and mix it with whatever at home that's up to them, they put them self at risk. Which is a big difference then letting E Liquid manufactures add whatever levels of just about any chemical they want without any warning, or any label informing the consumer that what they are consuming may be extremely harmful.

That is exactly my point. how many stories have you heard about body parts and stuff found in fast food. Not to mention what they consider food at fast food places. How is writing laws going to stop the 2% of juice makers that are unethical? its not. so who does it help?

Sure there's always gonna be the bad guys trying to buck the system, however with checks and balances in the mix a consumer walking into the vape shop will have at least some level of comfort knowing that what they are buying is what they think they are buying and those that are caught selling E liquid that contains unapproved ingredients will face plenties, fines, and prosecution according to the level of offense.

Health inspectors and the FDA... How is anything regulated? Through government agencies. To think e-liquid won't be regulated is a joke. It will be.

Common sense.

 

[skoony]

Still posting insults and personal attacks I see. I don't expect any different form you though.

Yes every year there are recalls of all sorts of foods and goods and believe me if these manufactures had no oversight or FDA, or anyone to answer to you would never see anything recalled. So just imagine the amount of mad cow disease meat you'd be eating, or bacteria ridden food, or dangerous medicine you may consume. I know you understand these points but you'd rather argue nonsense or post insults.



Those are good questions and not snarky ones. The FDA regulations will probably be set along food regulations or similar to them. Sure no one expects an inspector at every vape shop. But by giving a list of approved ingredients, acceptable levels, with clear guideline standards on manufacturing these liquids the consumer will know that E liquids they consume must follow a minimal set of safety standards in what they contain. You mentioned people making their own which is fine. If some want to buy E liquid and mix it with whatever at home that's up to them, they put them self at risk. Which is a big difference then letting E Liquid manufactures add whatever levels of just about any chemical they want without any warning, or any label informing the consumer that what they are consuming may be extremely harmful.



Sure there's always gonna be the bad guys trying to buck the system, however with checks and balances in the mix a consumer walking into the vape shop will have at least some level of comfort knowing that what they are buying is what they think they are buying and those that are caught selling E liquid that contains unapproved ingredients will face plenties, fines, and prosecution according to the level of offense.




Common sense.

these standards are not what the FDA is looking for.
using pharmaceutical or food grade ingredients pretty much takes care
of that end of the deal.
what the FDA wants is exact concentrations of ingredients down to the ppm
of every thing,not in the juice,but in each puff across all styles of tanks,devices and
power settings.
verifiable lab reports showing there is no more or no less than what the FDA deems
appropriate. these are the kinds of things the FDA is looking for.
contrary to popular belief BT did not increase the nicotine content in tobacco to
hook more people.they also lowered the nicotine as necessary to meet the
standards the FDA required. hence you had regular,light,and ultra lite options,
and each and every brand,exclusive.
everyone is in pretty much agreement with what should go into e-juice for
the most part generally. anyone who would arbitrarily ad ingredients that
are or should be known as potentially hazardous would be guilty of adulteration
or tampering at the very least.that is already against the law. (Exedrin)

regards
mike

 

[pls0138]

The way I look at is there is two sides to every coin, nothing is completely good or for that matter, completely bad. Of course there should be laws prohibiting the sales of e-cig products to minors, but just like alcohol, guns, and drugs, that doesn't mean minors won't find a way to get a hold of these products. For this reason, I don't see this as a legitimate reason to ban the sale of e-cigs. If you are someone who sees this as a legitimate reason, then you should put as much time and effort banning alcohol, drugs, guns, and junk food as well, because it's basically the same argument.
As far as the possibility of the percentage of new vapers eventually exceeding the percentage of smokers, this is definitely a possibility, but once again, just one of the "bads" that comes with the "goods". When I was in college I knew a lot of people who smoke hookah/sheesha tobacco who didn't smoke cigarettes. With all the flavored e-liquids out there I could see some of these types of people switching to vape products. There are also plenty of adults who don't smoke cigarettes but will enjoy a cigar on occasion, perhaps they would also switch to vaping.
All pros and cons aside, for me the whole e-cig sale argument comes down to personal freedom. If we're going to start banning things simply because they are potentially unhealthy, the first thing we should do is close down all fast food chains and eliminate all junk food. If you don't agree with that but you agree with banning of e-cigs, then you are a hypocrite in my opinion, plain and simple.

 

[sub4me]

I'm not for banning. I'm for consumer protection of the ingredients being used in liquids and a set of standards of liquid quality and purity, and approved ingredients only to be used. Not just taking the manufactures word for it (Suicide Bunny is still lying) and just accepting whatever their website says or the dude behind the counter tells you.

Everyone thinks they know whats in their liquid cause they trust (lol) their seller, or they (lol) make it themselves from nicotine imported from China or India, and flavorings, pg, and vg they bought online (lol), Think about liquids imported form China and India, you know the ones a lot of people pick up at the party store there's just no way to know what's in them, the standards of the facility, the grade in ingredients being used, a consumer knows nothing about it.

 

[sub4me]

Like it or not regulations are needed and to think we should just trust any seller that says they use premium ingredients only is just silly. Suicide Bunny was supposed to be the best. However they first denied any of the dangerous chemical was in their liquid, then when it was proven they said they didn't know which of course is BS, at the very least they knew or should have known.

 

[skoony]

Like it or not regulations are needed and to think we should just trust any seller that says they use premium ingredients only is just silly. Suicide Bunny was supposed to be the best. However they first denied any of the dangerous chemical was in their liquid, then when it was proven they said they didn't know which of course is BS, at the very least they knew or should have known.

well so what. it has not been determined that the amount used in
any e-juice is enough to be harmful. some day it may be proven to
be a mild irritant at most.this is being studied right now.
so what we have left is all FDA approved ingredients so quality and
purity are not issues. these except for the % of nicotine you can
pretty much ad the rest in the amount you prefer.
if i wanted to make a juice called really bad tasting stuff and,
it was really bad tasting stuff,i should be able to sell it.
anyone who would use ingredients other than food and pharmaceutical
grades are already breaking existing law.

regards
mike

 

[Lessifer]

well so what. it has not been determined that the amount used in
any e-juice is enough to be harmful. some day it may be proven to
be a mild irritant at most.this is being studied right now.
so what we have left is all FDA approved ingredients so quality and
purity are not issues. these except for the % of nicotine you can
pretty much ad the rest in the amount you prefer.
if i wanted to make a juice called really bad tasting stuff and,
it was really bad tasting stuff,i should be able to sell it.
anyone who would use ingredients other than food and pharmaceutical
grades are already breaking existing law.

regards
mike

But wait, we don't know if it's harmful in the way that we're using it, so it's best to take it off the market completely until we're sure! Wait, what's that? We're not sure if anything we're using is safe in the way that we're using it? Well, better take it all off the market then. Problem solved.

 

[sub4me]

well so what. it has not been determined that the amount used in
any e-juice is enough to be harmful. some day it may be proven to
be a mild irritant at most.this is being studied right now.
so what we have left is all FDA approved ingredients so quality and
purity are not issues. these except for the % of nicotine you can
pretty much ad the rest in the amount you prefer.
if i wanted to make a juice called really bad tasting stuff and,
it was really bad tasting stuff,i should be able to sell it.
anyone who would use ingredients other than food and pharmaceutical
grades are already breaking existing law.
regards
mike

The so what attitude is the message others (public) hear also, and that's not gonna fly.

What existing law?? You can bottle just about anything and call it E liquid, there is no laws regarding it, that's the problem. When a product is being sold to be ingested the public wants assurances of quality and safety.

 

[sub4me]

But wait, we don't know if it's harmful in the way that we're using it, so it's best to take it off the market completely until we're sure! Wait, what's that? We're not sure if anything we're using is safe in the way that we're using it? Well, better take it all off the market then. Problem solved.

You sure don't and neither do I which is why standards need to be in place, to make sure it's relatively safe to ingest into our lungs, and to be sure some manufacturer isn't adding the cheapest grade imported ingredients they can find from across the world who's storing the E liquid in lead vats, producing in unsanitary environments, cross contaminating batches with other unknown substances, and doing who knows what to make a larger profit. I think you can imagine other possibilities also. Making liquid isn't about your health its about profits, don't fool yourself.

 

[QU1T]

n00b to this whole adventure...

I have seen a few people list out the most common ingredients in juices on this thread,
Saying this is what we would see on a typical juice, if this was enforced, but I am not sure about that?

In my brief time on ECF I have also seen people listing some other ingredients over on DIY,
Some heavy stuff, not sure I would like to vape on those ingredients! so if DIY guys are up for it,
Why not the vendors?

I don't recall the names now, but I did look online and even the feedback on DIY was iffy regarding those ingredients?
But I really don't know enough about it all, and reading Sloths post on Diacetyl calmed my nerves a little, regarding that substance anyway,
However I would still prefer to stay away from it, transparency would allow for that,
I would like to have that choice...

I realize of course implementing and enforcing transparency could be an issue for some,
But still, transparency is a good thing, always, IMO anyway

 

[sub4me]

What's so wrong about applying the same standards we have with food and drugs to E liquid?? It only makes sense to do that.

 

[skoony]

The so what attitude is the message others (public) hear also, and that's not gonna fly.

What existing law?? You can bottle just about anything and call it E liquid, there is no laws regarding it, that's the problem. When a product is being sold to be ingested the public wants assurances of quality and safety.

no you can not and you know it.
basically its generally agreed PG,VG.flavors and nicotine,all FDA approved.
adulterating and tampering and or poisoning are against the law.(think exederin)
listing of ingredients is all that is required. we are not bumps on logs.
i for one am not going to cry wolf when all i see is a mole hill.
if you use FDA approved ingredients the quality and safety is
already there. you can't get any safer than that.
what you are suggesting is not happening nor would anyone
be stupid enough to do it.

regards
mike