The Elephant in the Room

[firerat]

Is the FDA that would regulate these things the same FDA that says food from McDonald's and Taco Bell is ok for human consumption and that ......... and psychedelic mushrooms have no medicinal value and are dangerous while things like oxycontin and xanax are perfectly fine with a script?

If so, then I'm sure they have our best interests in mind.

EDIT:

Wow, you can't type {Other stuff} on here huh? Weird.

 

[skoony]

Yup. I don't dispute any one of those. Do you agree with Dr. Farsalinos findings in his testing of e liquids that identified a few particular flavorings that were of concern? Should we bring that information out to the public, or should we turn a blind eye to the evidence we're already aware of....simply because the science as we understand it today shows most of this is safe?

Should we take the higher road and try to bring attention to the known few unsafe flavorings so people can avoid them even if they aren't on ECF doing countless hours of research? Because I can assure you the average consumer isn't nearly as educated on this subject as anyone posting on this thread.

Just asking.

yes i know of the study and they are of "concern".
they are also found in cigarette smoke in much greater amounts.
at the level they are found in e-juice it is not certain they will cause
harm. there is a potential risk. that is all we know right now.
should we be informed?,certainly.
should we be setting off the air raid sirens and run around like
chickens with our heads cut off or,diving into the shelters?
i don't think so. i tend to go with what is known not,with perhaps,maybe,
could,20 years down the road may or may not happen.

mike

 

[Bored2Tears]

I sure hope that vaping is every bit as safe as we all currently believe that it is. Since it's clearly safer than smoking cigarettes, we shouldn't need any regulation I guess. Hope we are all right and that we're all solid in our interpretation of this science.

I don't have a PHD in anything, especially not chemistry. I'm an average citizen trying to make sense of the available facts. Frankly, I consider myself to be at least of average intelligence and higher than average education level.

It has not been easy weeding out the fact from the fiction. There's certainly a lot of speculation and assumption about the long term.

I hope we are all correct, and that the government just leaves us alone to do our thing. You've all been researching this a lot longer than I, and have a much more informed opinion.....and the conclusion is that we as a community don't need any outside help to regulate. We've been doing a fine job thank you.

In response to the original purpose of this post though..... I will say that if I can't interpret the known science to a high degree of comfort, then no I won't support letting minors make the decision to vape for themselves.

 

[Jman8]

Bringing information to the public, is (also) bringing information to ANTZ. Who have greatly influenced the public on smoking. So much so that I am fairly certain that I cannot have a reasonable discussion, even here, on actual harms, actual issues around smoking, because the public is that much influenced by ANTZ rhetoric. All the stuff we know to be ANTZ lies about vaping and that we poke fun at, is stuff that is found with smoking and that some vapers regurgitate as if it is indisputable fact and that only an insane person would try to argue otherwise. I get that same type of perspective from non-vaper who read anti-vaping article and now feels informed about vaping. When I enter into any sort of discussion with that person, I am made out to be the insane person who is likely heavily addicted and therefore all information I convey is to be filtered through that prejudicial view.

I tried to have discussion on the diacetyl issue, in vein of what skoony is conveying in this thread. We go public with 'grave concern' and well we just served a whopper up on nice silver platter with pretty pink bow for ANTZ to feed off of for years to come.

I have no grave concern over diacetyl and currently do prefer that over the (untested) alternative. As I understand it, we are talking about a naturally occurring byproduct and the solution is a synthesized substitute and that will magically make everything all within safety limits that everyone, including ANTZ will accept.

Yet, I participate on a forum where diacetyl is huge issue and something we must get on top of, while also noting (often) that we are way behind on the issue, and that in much the same way BT lied to consumer so has BV (or even LV). That's going to go over well with ANTZ.

Bringing information to the public is one thing. I would say, on principle, it is a very good thing. But if the public is prone to panic and willing to exercise ban first as a most reasonable option (as is case with kids), then I must say that bringing things to the public makes about as much sense as bringing top secret / classified documents to the public, during a time of war.

Which, in case you are not aware, that is exactly what vapers are currently involved in.

 

[rbrylawski]

Do you have the food you eat analyzed? The same uncertainty's there.

But I need food to live. The same certainly can not be said for Vaping.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Bored2Tears]

War, rhetoric, air raid siren panic, unsubstantiated claims ... it sounds all too much like unreasonable terminology to me. Much like propaganda the other side uses.... I dismiss it when I see it on either side.

 

[Jman8]

War, rhetoric, air raid siren panic, unsubstantiated claims ... it sounds all too much like unreasonable terminology to me. Much like propaganda the other side uses.... I dismiss it when I see it on either side.

Willing to discuss this if you truly feel it is in dispute. Are you up to it?

 

[KenD]

But I need food to live. The same certainly can not be said for Vaping.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Sure, but if you can't know about food - which is subject to all sorts of regulations and rules, having be been so for a long time - how can you expect such a certainty to be possible in regard to e-liquid?

 

[Bored2Tears]

Willing to discuss this if you truly feel it is in dispute. Are you up to it?

Sure. What's in dispute? That I feel you're using the similar rhetoric?

 

[beckdg]

May I ask a question?

Most, if not all of us who have posted to this thread are former smokers. While BT finally gave up their list of ingredients, I swear I never really ever knew what exactly was in my brand of choice.

I just went looking for a food in my house that is processed. My husband likes those horrid flavored coffee creamers. I insist that he not get the ones with partially hydrogenated oils. So, the one he uses has water, sugar, cream, natural and artificial flavors, sodium caseinate, artificial color salt and carrageenan. I don't know and I don't think he knows what those artificial flavors and colors are.

If you drink soft drinks, you know that Coke et all protects their recipes and we just know of "artificial and natural flavorings" and we know that they usually contain a drug, caffeine.

I sometimes buy scented candles. I sometimes buy air freshener. If we spray them in our air, or if the scent comes from a burning candle, aren't we inhaling whatever gave those items their scent?

What makes our e liquid so different?

in red... MSG

bet most didn't know that when they read the label.

 

[Bored2Tears]

in red... MSG

bet most didn't know that when they read the label.

And bet none would know if there was no label at all.

 

[beckdg]

But I need food to live. The same certainly can not be said for Vaping.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

but you do not need most of the food you eat to live. nature has provided for us plenty that we didn't need to alter. and in altering we thought we needed labels to tell us what's in our food. yet the labels have proven useless. hence the obesity and food born afflictions plaguing the united states. people are dying... while reading the labels. and most that do read the labels haven't a clue what most of it means.

 

[beckdg]

And bet none would know if there was no label at all.

and bet none would have to know if they were drinking unpasteurized goats milk.

but where is that available in the U.S. and why?

 

[Bored2Tears]

but you do not need most of the food you eat to live. nature has provided for us plenty that we didn't need to alter. and in altering we thought we needed labels to tell us what's in our food. yet the labels have proven useless. hence the obesity and food born afflictions plaguing the united states. people are dying... while reading the labels. and most that do read the labels haven't a clue what most of it means.

People were getting food borne illnesses at much higher rates prior to regulations than after them. that's a fact. Choosing to eat McDonalds every meal because of convenience and cost is another matter....that's personal choice. If I choose to smoke despite the known risks, after being warned by a label and well known fact, well...I lost the right to claim I wasn't informed.

 

[Bored2Tears]

and bet none would have to know if they were drinking unpasteurized goats milk.

but where is that available in the U.S. and why?

Why did they begin widely pasteurizing milk from cows and the like?

 

[Baldr]

Still, there is going to be a growing population of children vaping.

That's certain. Look at it this way: How may kids vape today? Compare that to how many kids vaped 20 years ago? See, it's a huge amount of growth?

I wouldn't recommend a kid start vaping, but it beats having them start smoking. And the vast majority of smokers did exactly that.

Perhaps the percent of young people who will start using tobacco products will be greater with the advent of vaping.

Right. Vaping is exactly the same as smoking, you're using a tobacco product and therefore a horrible sinner. Go jump off a bridge.

 

[WattWick]

That's certain. Look at it this way: How may kids vape today? Compare that to how many kids vaped 20 years ago? See, it's a huge amount of growth?

I wouldn't recommend a kid start vaping, but it beats having them start smoking. And the vast majority of smokers did exactly that.



Right. Vaping is exactly the same as smoking, you're using a tobacco product and therefore a horrible sinner. Go jump off a bridge.

I see what you did there. Hate to counter with seriousness. Just have to point out that the numbers mean nothing if not compared to those of kids who smoke. Then again, abusing statistics is nothing new in politics.

 

[Jman8]

Sure. What's in dispute? That I feel you're using the similar rhetoric?

That the claims can't be substantiated.

 

[Bored2Tears]

That the claims can't be substantiated.

Like e liquid vendors claiming to be diacetyl free till they actually got their liquids tested? We might be referring to different things, I dunno.

 

[Jman8]

People were getting food borne illnesses at much higher rates prior to regulations than after them. that's a fact.

Can you substantiate this claim of fact?