Minors are vaping right now. Welcome to the insane world. Enjoy your visit.
Not sure why vaping zero nic is insane, but hey, let's make our points and not back them up, mkay?
The Elephant in the Room
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Minors are vaping right now. Welcome to the insane world. Enjoy your visit.
Not sure why vaping zero nic is insane, but hey, let's make our points and not back them up, mkay?
Well, nicotine is not GRAS and it interacts with body chemistry. I never said that nicotine is evil, my thinking is not that polarized.
Also, the rest of the components may be GRAS, but that doesn't mean that they thought it was safe to use them in ways that they never imagined. That's why the FDA is asking questions about inhaling these things. I'm sure that there are lots of things that are GRAS, but doctors would want to know more before we used them as a suppository.
The major thing I don't understand is why you think the FDA exists in a bubble. As if the same research and information available to us, isn't available to them. If you think there is anything you or I know that at least someone at the FDA doesn't, they aren't doing their jobs. They first took action against e-cigs over 5 years ago, they have been doing their homework since then.
Let the kids vape zero nic. Sounds good to me. No harm, no foul. Is anyone else here discussing zero nicotine? Maybe, but I don't think it's really a pressing concern for anyone.
Seems to me, this thread is the perfect example of how ANTZ dig in on a given agenda. Find an arguable point to anything and start the arguing. If it starts to simmer down, pop into the conversation again and reemphasize the importance of some single piece of the equation.
People seem to forget, even in a community we are all individuals with individual thoughts, comfort zones and logic. We will always have differing opinions on some points within a topic.
I am a part of the Vaping movement and a part of ECF but I am NOT either nor are they me. We will always have commonalities and oppositions.
As for who should regulate what and how.................... for me, that is my responsibility. What will you take responsibility for?
People seem to forget, even in a community we are all individuals with individual thoughts, comfort zones and logic. We will always have differing opinions on some points within a topic.
I am a part of the Vaping movement and a part of ECF but I am NOT either nor are they me. We will always have commonalities and oppositions.
As for who should regulate what and how.................... for me, that is my responsibility. What will you take responsibility for?
All black and white don't make a sunset pretty. Nor a discussion interesting.
Edit: Oy this is moving fast. Not a reply to crxess above
This discussion is all about extremes, strawmen, bro science and jumping to some other ridiculous notion once confronted with differences in opinion. Really... it's junk.
Edit: Oy this is moving fast. Not a reply to crxess above
This discussion is all about extremes, strawmen, bro science and jumping to some other ridiculous notion once confronted with differences in opinion. Really... it's junk.
My question is why you think the FDA's only concern is vaping. They have a lot going on. Sure, they could look all this stuff up. However, I don't know how valid all this research is or how they would look at it. Regardless, they have a ton of stuff going on all the time and don't actively do this. That's why research is commissioned and all parties can bring in evidence during the notes and comments period.
Well now I just feel guilty for joking around so much and not taking any of this too seriously....
So, we inform children about what vaping entails. Both the pros and the cons and all the current information we adults know. We don't stop being caring parents, adults under this scenario. We don't let them do whatever they want because currently we don't let adults do whatever they want.
Children's brains are said to be fully developed by age 25. So, then why age 18? If anything, it ought to be around age 30 for you ought to have a good history of making informed decisions with a fully developed brain if that is the rationale in place.
I'm one who knew around age 8 that smoking wasn't good for you. I didn't one day wake up at age 15 and say, now I think it is actually good for me. Instead, I woke up one day and thought (in my own way) that I'm tired of being lied to and controlled with decisions that adults are able to make and that allow them to live well into their forties. When you are under 18, anyone over 30 is really old.
When I took up smoking as a teen, I understood it to be bad for me. But, when I used it habitually, I realized the hype of 'how bad is this' had been greatly skewed in yet another form of fear mongering trying to mask itself as "protection." Seeing through this deception that adults tell each other, themselves and then with kids is the real gateway and also the insanity at work.
Hey you, under 18, don't do as I did, but do as I say from my position of hypocrisy.
Uh, yeah, that's not insane at all. /sarcasm
And rightly so. That is because children, until they are old enough to protect themselves (via delopmental milestones that include muscle, brain, writing, decision-making, judgement, critical thinking skills, voting, ability to self-defend, etc.) are to be protected. That is the job of parents and the adult society.
Anyone who doesn't understand this is like the ignorant people (that I deal with in animal rescue) who think that after a mother dog is run over by the road repair crew, that they will "survive" on their own, at 2-3 weeks old, with no way to feed themselves and no knowledge of how to hunt, self-protect, etc. I've had many of these kind of people laugh at the idea that these animals "need" to be rescued and/or protected by our group. Yes, it's true, hard to believe, huh? They think mother nature somehow automatically imbues these "learned skills" to infant puppies.
Well, can't we just inform children about the dangers of drinking and accept that they will do it anyways? Why do we need laws against that?
As for the age, it's largely arbitrary. The research that shows that the brain doesn't develop until the age of 25 is new. I read somewhere, and I can't back this up, that the 21 year age for drinking was based on English common law. That was when a man could become a knight.
The point is that we had to make up these ages because we didn't really know when was the right time. It would be hard to change everything to 25 for obvious reasons.
If kids are allowed to vape zero nic, then it promotes the position that kids be allowed to vape. No harm, no foul.
Kids can buy the gear and the juice that has 0 mg nicotine, which some adults enjoy, in many different flavors. Agreement with this means you would be not able to readily say "kids shouldn't be allowed to vape."
Because of ageism.
And it's hard to maintain the status quo, but we manage to do that. I'll be okay if it stays at 18, but I'll observe that in around 10 to 20 percent of kids, it is not working and that they are subjected to an underground market where risks are far greater than the open market. Kids are going to vape.
Those who favor the age restriction get to feel like they are winning on one count, and one that I continue to find hard to defend, but is what it is. I get to win on the other count that just so happens to be reality: the one where I know, as a fact, that kids will be (or already are) vaping.
Despite the lies / fear tactics employed by adults.
Remove all of what's wildly considered junk food and the point still stands. Fast food needn't be referenced. Before regulation vs after regulation = from cave men until regulation vs from regulation until now. Pretty sure Renaissance people and cave men alike didn't have 5 stage reverse osmosis filters in their sinks removing cysts, pathogens and contaminants like I do. Just so happens I live after regulation started and after tons of advances such as the many that make this conversation possible.
For reasons that are no longer serious threats. The better question is why is it still practiced knowing it creates several compounds such as the aforementioned carrageenan that are all MSG hidden textually on your dairy labels and kills beneficial bacteria that humans need to properly digest any form of cows milk and utilize it's health benefits efficiently or at all.
Sent from my device.
To just briefly say something about under 18s and vaping; sure, not allowing sales (of nicotine liquids) to minors would be a good thing (and I have yet to come across any place that would sell to minors). However, it should not be more difficult to buy for a minor than cigarettes. Minors will smoke even if they're not legally allowed to, and therefore they should have the possibility to quit through vaping. Online sales is a problem, and applying too rigorous standards could really stifle the market. Paying by credit card or authorized online service such as PayPal should be enough verification as you're not supposed to be able to use those if you're a minor.
As for requirements for testing liquids; a good idea in principle, but with the suggestions at least over here in Europe it would mean that every possible flavour would need to go through expensive tastings, making it economically impossible for any but the biggest players on the market to remain on the market. Some form of regulation would definitely be a good thing, but the requirements will need to be manageable.
As for requirements for testing liquids; a good idea in principle, but with the suggestions at least over here in Europe it would mean that every possible flavour would need to go through expensive tastings, making it economically impossible for any but the biggest players on the market to remain on the market. Some form of regulation would definitely be a good thing, but the requirements will need to be manageable.
I can't say for certain but I don't see many minors buying tobacco on the black market in some secret back alley (they usually have an adult buy it for them from a store) so I don't see a black market for e liquid opening soon for minors, no they will have a dopey adult buy it for them. So maybe stop with the scary black market harmful e liquid propaganda, its nonsense.
You've never heard of that website that's like silk road, but only does tobacco for teens?
Adults are likely to be the biggest customers on the cigarette black market, simply to avoid taxes. But, cigarettes are available everywhere so a minor will eventually find a place that'll sell to him/her. With one or two vape shops in a city (if lucky) minors already have a much more difficult time getting access to vaping equipment and e-liquid, even though they're not controlled yet.
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