When the louder members here don't like what you say this is what they resort to.
The Elephant in the Room
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When the louder members here don't like what you say this is what they resort to.
No insults, its common sense, some lack it and attack others because they can't stand to hear an opposing point of view, like you.
Is it just me or is this discussion turning into something uglier?
There's no question that not all of us agree about all things and for that I am thankful. It would be very boring if we had page after page of "yes, I agree" ; I prefer fair and open discussions. It seems that somewhere in these 53 pages we've lost our manners, left fairness behind and have forgotten the golden rule.
I suggest either we get it back on track or adjourn this meeting.
There's no question that not all of us agree about all things and for that I am thankful. It would be very boring if we had page after page of "yes, I agree" ; I prefer fair and open discussions. It seems that somewhere in these 53 pages we've lost our manners, left fairness behind and have forgotten the golden rule.
I suggest either we get it back on track or adjourn this meeting.
In my opinion, this conversation has run its course. I seriously doubt there's anything left but recriminations and name calling at this point.
im not up on what the arguings about so i wont comment on that.
to the op of this thread though, i started smoking cigarettes at 12. so the thought of a teen getting there hands on vaper as opposed to cigarettes isn't a real negative id worry much about. they shouldn't be the targeted market though. but kids will get there hands on stuff, its just how the world works.
to the op of this thread though, i started smoking cigarettes at 12. so the thought of a teen getting there hands on vaper as opposed to cigarettes isn't a real negative id worry much about. they shouldn't be the targeted market though. but kids will get there hands on stuff, its just how the world works.
Well, I don't expect you to read the whole thread. I'll briefly state my point. I'm not making any statements about whether or not vaping is a bad thing. I wanted comments on the idea of a growing number of teens who are vaping. Regardless of how you feel about it or our own personal experiences, I see it as problematic because this is one of the major factors that the FDA looks at when making decisions.
Obviously, this issue carries a number of opinions, theories, and passions about whether or not children should vape.
All the ones I've seen where where they asked kids if they had tried it, not if they used it regularly. There may well be one, I just haven't seen one. Of course more have tried it, it's more prevalent now.
I'm going to run a brief post mortem on this thread.
The real problem is that ya'll never agreed on a set of assumptions. Some of you started vaping to quit smoking. Some of you are dual users who would like to be non-smokers. Some of you are dual users who are perfectly happy being dual users. Some of you are dual users who want to believe that this whole vaping thing is a big lie, so that you can feel better about going back to smoking full time. Some of you have never smoked or vaped at all, and this whole thing is just an intellectual exercise. Some of you may even be looking for ways to get rid of both smoking and vaping entirely.
Some people like vaping for its own sake. Some people view vaping as a necessary evil to quitting smoking. Some people can't wait to be done with the whole thing. Some people think vaping is sinful.
Some people think that vaping has to be 100% safe to be a valid option. Some people think than vaping just has to be safer than smoking to be a valid option. Some people don't really care if vaping is safe or not and intend to vape regardless. Some people don't care if vaping is safe or not and never plan to do it.
Some people think the government's role is to protect all the little children. Some people think the government's role is to protect all of the adults as well. Some people think the government should only step in when "absolutely necessary." Some people think the government should mind their own beeswax.
Some people think the government has our best interests at heart. Some people think the government is utterly corrupt and will do whatever the people with money want it to do. Some people think the government is utterly corrupt and will do whatever is most popular, and will get them the most votes. Some people think the government is entirely composed of idiots who couldn't tell the difference between a biased report and an objective finding if it bit them on the nose.
Some people just like to stir the poop. Some people are looking for a little entertainment on a Tuesday night. Some people care passionately about this topic, and are scared to death of what will happen to vapers in 30 years. Some people care passionately about this topic, and are scared to death of what will happen to smokers right now if vaping is banned. Some people are here seeking enlightenment. Some people are here looking for good arguments either way for the next time this topic comes up.
Some people have an economic interest in vaping. Some people have an economic interest in smoking. Some people have an economic interest in both. Some people have no dog in this fight.
Net result: a few clusters of individuals with similar attitudes but no widespread agreement on any major topic. I'm going to put a stake in the ground and guess that no one really changed their minds about anything as a result of this 53 page discussion. Feel free to speak up if you've changed your mind!
Conclusions: None.
The real problem is that ya'll never agreed on a set of assumptions. Some of you started vaping to quit smoking. Some of you are dual users who would like to be non-smokers. Some of you are dual users who are perfectly happy being dual users. Some of you are dual users who want to believe that this whole vaping thing is a big lie, so that you can feel better about going back to smoking full time. Some of you have never smoked or vaped at all, and this whole thing is just an intellectual exercise. Some of you may even be looking for ways to get rid of both smoking and vaping entirely.
Some people like vaping for its own sake. Some people view vaping as a necessary evil to quitting smoking. Some people can't wait to be done with the whole thing. Some people think vaping is sinful.
Some people think that vaping has to be 100% safe to be a valid option. Some people think than vaping just has to be safer than smoking to be a valid option. Some people don't really care if vaping is safe or not and intend to vape regardless. Some people don't care if vaping is safe or not and never plan to do it.
Some people think the government's role is to protect all the little children. Some people think the government's role is to protect all of the adults as well. Some people think the government should only step in when "absolutely necessary." Some people think the government should mind their own beeswax.
Some people think the government has our best interests at heart. Some people think the government is utterly corrupt and will do whatever the people with money want it to do. Some people think the government is utterly corrupt and will do whatever is most popular, and will get them the most votes. Some people think the government is entirely composed of idiots who couldn't tell the difference between a biased report and an objective finding if it bit them on the nose.
Some people just like to stir the poop. Some people are looking for a little entertainment on a Tuesday night. Some people care passionately about this topic, and are scared to death of what will happen to vapers in 30 years. Some people care passionately about this topic, and are scared to death of what will happen to smokers right now if vaping is banned. Some people are here seeking enlightenment. Some people are here looking for good arguments either way for the next time this topic comes up.
Some people have an economic interest in vaping. Some people have an economic interest in smoking. Some people have an economic interest in both. Some people have no dog in this fight.
Net result: a few clusters of individuals with similar attitudes but no widespread agreement on any major topic. I'm going to put a stake in the ground and guess that no one really changed their minds about anything as a result of this 53 page discussion. Feel free to speak up if you've changed your mind!
Conclusions: None.
You know, this is something that always bothers me about public health surveys. The questions seem to be poorly defined. If one child brought an e-cig to school and let 5 of his or her friends try a quick puff, the number has increased 5 fold, but so what?
{Moderated}
I don't consider Plastic Shaman a troll. That term gets used too often when people just don't agree with someone. I think a lot of what he is saying is quite valid and I would support some of it, except that in the big picture I believe it will hinder rather than help vaping.
IMO it has been a good thread and both points of view are being heard. I like that. It has also been quite entertaining so far which is a bonus
I don't consider Plastic Shaman a troll. That term gets used too often when people just don't agree with someone. I think a lot of what he is saying is quite valid and I would support some of it, except that in the big picture I believe it will hinder rather than help vaping.
IMO it has been a good thread and both points of view are being heard. I like that. It has also been quite entertaining so far which is a bonus
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Small quibble with #1. Saying a juice has "natural and artificial flavors" is not listing the ingredients. If they listed what the flavors were--watermelon, coffee, walnuts, vanilla, etc.--I'd be happy. Got a free sample that I had a bad reaction to and I didn't even open the bottle. As someone with severe allergies, I think MBV's claim of listing ingredients is rather lame but it's a start.
I think it's gone way past the OP topic now and you've learned how a lot of us feel about these things. I'm really curious to hear what you've learned from the discussion.
Thanks
"Natural and artificial flavors is all you get on food labels. Besides off you get watermelon juice it's going to have the same flavoring as watermelon candy.
Um, don't buy it? I researched Boba's Bounty Clone I was interested in for example, and chose not to buy it from info I found about the company that makes it.
Rolygate. Yes, that would be an excellent choice. Very knowledgeable.
Roly or SJ. Both are very knowledgeable about it.
Your second point is really interesting in the context of the proposed rules. I talked about this in my thread where I talked about the legal issues in the proposed rules and SFATA brought up the zero nic issue. Here's the thing, the statute says that tobacco products include all components, parts, and accessories. So, does this bring pg, vg, and flavorings that could be used into their jurisdiction? I doubt it, but the FDA needs to do more to their definitions. They actually asked comments about their definitions, but I have yet to see any of the comments about the definitions.
Here's the really weird part. The FDA has an exception for tobacco products that do not contain nicotine. Now, the FDA has said that they are not aware of any tobacco products that do not contain any nicotine. If there are, the product can be exempted from the warning label requirement. However, they still have to apply for the exception by virtue of being a tobacco product. So, if components of the e-liquid, like flavors, are tobacco products, do they need to apply for the exception?
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