The Elephant in the Room

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WattWick

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Problem is its not nonsense look it up there's some very real stories. Contact the schools, doctors, hospitals, law enforcement, open your eyes to the real world facts.

If these are the kinds of problems I think you're talking about that we should not discuss in detail... whether or not e-liquid is regulated and/or labeled or not will not make one ounce of a difference.

If so, our vaping hardware is no more nefarious than a Bic and a pack of Rizzlas. Which is, if I dare say so myself, the most excellent example of some readily available items can be used for purposes not intended and why we should not be treated any different.
 

Jman8

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Problem is its not nonsense look it up there's some very real stories. Contact the schools, doctors, hospitals, law enforcement, open your eyes to the real world facts.

If it is not nonsense, then the black market that currently exists for kids is a very scary proposition.

I like how you want to have it one way for kids (not all that bad), but another way for adults (horrible, needs regulation). What are the chances that kids will be able to participate in the regulated market? After you answer that, then return to what OP was getting at (partially) and share your estimate on what percentage of people under 18 do you think will be vaping yearly (in the regulated market)?
 

Lessifer

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If these are the kinds of problems I think you're talking about that we should not discuss in detail... whether or not e-liquid is regulated and/or labeled or not will not make one ounce of a difference.

If so, our vaping hardware is no more nefarious than a Bic and a pack of Rizzlas. Which is, if I dare say so myself, the most excellent example of some readily available items can be used for purposes not intended and why we should not be treated any different.

Don't worry sub, I got this.

But they call it e-liquid!
 

sub4me

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If it is not nonsense, then the black market that currently exists for kids is a very scary proposition.

Its not a black market product its being sold openly at many shops because its technically legal, however many places keep it under the counter because they've been warned not to sell it to adults or minors. But many gas stations display it openly. I just saw it when I filled my tank its was a 10 ml bottle for $10 they didn't appear to be to worried about selling the stuff.

As far as having e liquid sold two different ways one for minors and one for adults I have no clue what you mean because I never said that. I'm for regulations for all e liquids and to be sold to adults only. Minors have no business buying tobacco or e liquid and if they are we have laws in place to deal with those buying and selling to and for minors.
 
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KenD

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It can't be. The adult vaping population, that started smoking at age 13, has spoken. No vape gear, even with 0 nic, is permissible to the kids who are not developed enough to realize that this could be a way off of smokes.

Here's some Chantix to tie you over until you're 18.
Well, I'm leaving my career in academia next year, and having considered my future I've looked into the possibility of becoming a merchant of illicit substances. So, in a worst case scenario my brother's kids will still have access to "the stuff" (placeholder for whatever it'll be called), though for heavily inflated prices :)
 

Bernard Marx

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PapaSloth

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Nice video.
Indeed!

Question directed to Professor Peter Hajak, Director of the Tobacco Dependence Research Unit at Queen Mary University of London:
Q: "Do you think that e-cigarettes are a big change?"
A: "I think they could be a revolutionary change. I think they have a potential to basically eradicate smoking-related disease and death on the population scale."
 

Bernard Marx

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Racehorse

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The popcorn lung chemical didn't show it face in e-liquid, it became an issue for people that have been in the manufacturing stage for POPCORN. Not e-liquid.

There are no known cases of "popcorn lung" in smokers or vapers.

However, Dr. Farsalinos said:
"Bronchiolitis obliterans is not caused by smoking, you are right. But why? Because smoking exposes the lung to a large variety of different toxins, which all together cause another kind of disease: COPD.
The incidence of COPD in smokers is up to 15%. The incidence of bronchiolitis obliterans by diacetyl exposure is extremely low. In fact, only few cases have ever being documented. Most commonly, diacetyl exposure causes a decline in lung function which can be detected by a reduction in FEV1. This is much more common than development of bronchiolitis obliterans. However, this can be easily misdiagnosed as COPD...."

(bolding is mine).

Since this topic started out about selling to minors,I said earlier:
CHILDREN do not have the maturity, awareness, or behavioral milestones to manage alcohol, nicotine, overeating dependencies/addictions. Anymore than they can treat themselves for ADHD.

That is precisely why minors are not given access to these things....because they are not mature enough to manage and/or treat themselves for addictions/dependencies.

Later, you write:
I would like to know but since I can not be certain with some flavors, I avoid those.

Let me ask you something, Robin (or anyone else): Would you say that children are capable of doing the same level of research as you or I, or Dr. Farsalinos? Do you think children can do the same research to find out what flavorings are "okay" to vape?


And yes, I *do* distinguish between remedies that are appropriate for children, and remedies that are appropriate for adults. They aren't the same. Even most medications have completely different dosages for children than for adults. This is just common sense.

Therefore, if parents who are not minors, (and hopefully in tandem with an understanding pediatrician) wish to help their child overcome a smoking addiction (and there really aren't that many children who are addicted to smoking in the 1st place) and wish to purchase eliquid and vape gear for their children, that's fine. (although I would pursue other remedies with them 1st---one that does not expose their young developing lungs to a possible decline in lung function and COPD. ).

I will adamantly stick to children not being mature enough to purchase addiction/dependency treatments on their own, nor being able to do the critical thinking necessary to make sense of research on flavorings, reduced lung function, etc. and apply it to themselves.

So I am in 100% support eliquid not being sold to minors. Nor vape gear.
 
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Bernard Marx

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Lessifer

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Really? The current laws just forbid sale of tobacco to anyone under the age of 18.

Tobacco sales laws are actually state level. In California it is:
Penal Code Section 308
■ It is a crime to sell, give, or in any way supply tobacco products
and paraphernalia to minors.
 

Robino1

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There are no known cases of "popcorn lung" in smokers or vapers.

However, Dr. Farsalinos said:
"Bronchiolitis obliterans is not caused by smoking, you are right. But why? Because smoking exposes the lung to a large variety of different toxins, which all together cause another kind of disease: COPD.
The incidence of COPD in smokers is up to 15%. The incidence of bronchiolitis obliterans by diacetyl exposure is extremely low. In fact, only few cases have ever being documented. Most commonly, diacetyl exposure causes a decline in lung function which can be detected by a reduction in FEV1. This is much more common than development of bronchiolitis obliterans. However, this can be easily misdiagnosed as COPD...."

(bolding is mine).

Since this topic started out about selling to minors,I said earlier:


Later, you write:


Let me ask you something, Robin (or anyone else): Would you say that children are capable of doing the same level of research as you or I, or Dr. Farsalinos? Do you think children can do the same research to find out what flavorings are "okay" to vape?


And yes, I *do* distinguish between remedies that are appropriate for children, and remedies that are appropriate for adults. They aren't the same. Even most medications have completely different dosages for children than for adults. This is just common sense.

Therefore, if parents who are not minors, (and hopefully in tandem with an understanding pediatrician) wish to help their child overcome a smoking addiction (and there really aren't that many children who are addicted to smoking in the 1st place) and wish to purchase eliquid and vape gear for their children, that's fine. (although I would pursue other remedies with them 1st---one that does not expose their young developing lungs to a possible decline in lung function and COPD. ).

I will adamantly stick to children not being mature enough to purchase addiction/dependency treatments on their own, nor being able to do the critical thinking necessary to make sense of research on flavorings, reduced lung function, etc. and apply it to themselves.

So I am in 100% support eliquid not being sold to minors. Nor vape gear.

It really depends on the teen. Some do research stuff, but in reality, the ones that do tend to not be smokers ;)

I'm seriously torn with this issue. I have grandkids that are at risk for smoking. My heart says I would rather they vape than pick up a cigarette. I read all the back and forth and I see both sides very clearly.

My truthful opinion would put a cut off age at 16. At that age, they are going to be dating, driving... I don't know the answer. :( These are my thoughts and my opinions only.
 

Plastic Shaman

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Tobacco sales laws are actually state level. In California it is:
Penal Code Section 308
■ It is a crime to sell, give, or in any way supply tobacco products
and paraphernalia to minors.

Ok, so that has nothing to do with federal regulation. Individual states have different laws on these things and this is something to be fought on a state wide level.
 

Lessifer

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Ok, so that has nothing to do with federal regulation. Individual states have different laws on these things and this is something to be fought on a state wide level.

Well, it does, in the sense that Federal regulation supersedes state law, usually unless the state law is more restrictive. Of course we're living in an age of grey(green) areas, where that is being questioned more and more.
 

stevegmu

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It is pretty clear and has been decided through numerous Supreme Court cases that federal law and statute trump state law, ala the Supremacy Clause. The Family Smoking Prevention and Tobacco Control Act clearly states that tobacco products can not be sold to minors... Should a state seek to lower the age limit for sale of tobacco products to minors it would never hold up in court, if any attorney were even willing to take the case... The freest country I have ever spent time in or even know about is the Czech Republic, and even they forbid sale of electronic cigarettes to minors...
 

Plastic Shaman

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Well, it does, in the sense that Federal regulation supersedes state law, usually unless the state law is more restrictive. Of course we're living in an age of grey(green) areas, where that is being questioned more and more.

Yes, but the Federal government is only concerned with sales to minors. They have said nothing about making it illegal for parents to buy e-cigs for their children. If you look at the law you posted, it's a criminal statute. I can't really think of a way to make a law like that without making it a criminal law. Businesses, yes because you can fine them. But the individual? That's something that you want a criminal statute for, even if it's a minor citation.

The Federal government has no interest in laws like this. Federal crimes are generally major crimes, not misdemeanors and citations. I don't think there's a danger here of Congress making a law like this.

Edit: Forgot to mention that the supremacy clause does not always mean that the states have to conform their laws to Federal laws. For example, there are states that don't have criminal statutes that the Federal government has. They don't have to enforce these Federal laws. Now, the Federal government could bring criminal charges against a violator, but a state could totally ignore the crime. Even if the Federal government passed a law like this, states that didn't have a similar statute would not have to arrest parents for giving their children e-cigs. There's no way the Federal government would have the time, resources, or interest to enforce this.
 
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Jman8

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Let me ask you something, Robin (or anyone else): Would you say that children are capable of doing the same level of research as you or I, or Dr. Farsalinos? Do you think children can do the same research to find out what flavorings are "okay" to vape?

I would say in some cases children are as capable as adults, in other cases, more capable, and in perhaps a majority of cases less capable. Perhaps we could test everyone interested in vaping to see who's capable and who's not. Would be interesting to see how many adults don't pass the test.

And yes, I *do* distinguish between remedies that are appropriate for children, and remedies that are appropriate for adults. They aren't the same. Even most medications have completely different dosages for children than for adults. This is just common sense.

If the kid is under a certain age, like 12 (or much younger).

How many people either participating in this thread or reading it smoked when under 18? Were they smoking the "kiddie version of smokes" with lower dosages, or the adult version? I'm wondering what common sense would have to say on that one.

Therefore, if parents who are not minors, (and hopefully in tandem with an understanding pediatrician) wish to help their child overcome a smoking addiction (and there really aren't that many children who are addicted to smoking in the 1st place) and wish to purchase eliquid and vape gear for their children, that's fine. (although I would pursue other remedies with them 1st---one that does not expose their young developing lungs to a possible decline in lung function and COPD. ).

I will adamantly stick to children not being mature enough to purchase addiction/dependency treatments on their own, nor being able to do the critical thinking necessary to make sense of research on flavorings, reduced lung function, etc. and apply it to themselves.

So I am in 100% support eliquid not being sold to minors. Nor vape gear.

And I would adamantly challenge such thinking because it continues to strike me as ageism (or adultism, if you will). You are saying all people under 18 are immature (or not mature enough) to purchase an item on their own that may or MAY NOT contain nicotine (as vape gear does not contain nicotine). The inference here is that all people over 18 do engage in critical thinking and perform copious amounts of research before making such purchases. Either this is ageism or the common sense you allude to isn't so common.

I always find it interesting that the case against vaping and harms associated with it, as it relates to tiny fragile children, is supported by many vapers, but when those same things are brought up by ANTZ/media, the adult vaper is suddenly adamant that the reporting is heavily biased and overly zealous.
 
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