The end of microcoils?

[Magaro]

The man destroyed half of my hobby today.

vaping wasn't for me just about the harm reduction, it was fun as a hobby building coils, trying wicks and God knows what else.

Regards
Tony

Sent from my keyboard through my phone or something like that.

Stop wimpering. Put on your big boy (or girl) pants. Study up, and make some grown up choices.

I'm joking. But seriously: knowledge is power. Life is full of risks. And EVERY piece of evidence to date shows vaping to be WAY safer than smoking. None of this changes based on the semi-educated guess of anyone. Including Dr F. Data rules the day, and he didn't present any.

 

[TheBloke]

For a stainless steel, 317L is very oxidation and corrosion resistant. The lower temperatures of TC vaping certainly play in its favor. BUT, we have to remember that it isn't designed for use as a electrical-resistance heating coil. Neither is cp titanium or nickel 200, for that matter. If used CAREFULLY (no intense pre-oxidation), I PERSONALLY would be comfortable using it. My biggest concern would be possible corrosion from e-liquid vapor at ~400C wire temps. It concerns me because I am not knowledgeable about it. I doubt that even the worst tank-cracker juice is corrosive enough to cause an issue, but I don't know that with any certainty. Personally, I use nickel 200. I use it solely because it's what my VS rDNA40 is calibrated for. Is it safe? Don't really know. But I haven't found a convincing piece of data yet that causes me concern.

Sorry for the waffling, but we really are living on the frontier. It's an unknown (and potentially dangerous) place. But we choose to be here.

Awesome, thank you.

Did you mean 400°C? or 400°F? Because if C, we never reach those temps (intentionally). 400°F yes, all the time.

My understanding of Ni200 was that in and of itself it's pretty unsafe? I mean it changes its nature ('fractures' or something?) quite significantly at 600°F. So one TC mistake and the wire may be of a completely different nature.

My view up until now is that Titanium and SS at the least could not be worse than Ni200? At least, assuming no over-burning etc.

 

[BigEgo]

Highly recommend everyone listen to this full broadcast. Dr. F. answers a ton of questions from chat about all sorts of health issues (flavors, PG/VG, coils, wicks, temps). Pretty informative all around.

The good news is that watts don't really matter. That is, as long as your coil/wick is saturated and can keep up with the watts you put to it, you're fine. He mentioned that from his own testing (some of which hasn't been published), the levels of toxic aldehydes were about the same no matter the wattage (as long as there was no dry puffing conditions). Whenever the dry puffing conditions began, the levels of aldehydes went way up. This is no surprise, really, as it's basic physics. For example, a Kayfun lite at 10w will put off aldehydes at a higher level than at 7 or 8w. However, a Kanger subtank at 25w won't be any worse than a Kayfun at 8w. Again, it depends on how well it "wicks." Wattage doesn't matter and you can't simply say "anything above X wattage is dangerous" as other researchers have tried to do. No, it depends on the atty, coil, wick, airflow, etc.

I also heard the guys from Evolv mention they did their own testing when they were developing the DNA-40 (this obviously was a while back). They said that the levels of toxic compounds were higher at the end of the puff (probably due to the fact the airflow falls off) and, of course, temp control should stop this from happening by keeping the puff "consistent." Dr. F. mentioned in this broadcast he plans on doing a temp control study as well sometime in the future.

 

[drksideken]

I'm not going to worry about it too much at the moment. People have been vaping with all kinds of stuff for years and they haven't started glowing purple or going cross eyed because of it. I'll worry when I see a more definitive study produced by people who are using the devises in a real world simulation that is an accurate representation of how the majority of people vape normally.

 

[ReigntheGamer]

Stop wimpering. Put on your big boy (or girl) pants. Study up, and make some grown up choices.

I'm joking. But seriously: knowledge is power. Life is full of risks. And EVERY piece of evidence to date shows vaping to be WAY safer than smoking. None of this changes based on the semi-educated guess of anyone. Including Dr F. Data rules the day, and he didn't present any.

Most of all of this except some of the metallurgy talk being just a welder looks like latin to me. But my educated guess is a few pulses to make sure a coil is working properly once wicked, and wetted is far less dangerous than puffing on a dry hitting, red glowing, hot leg build. So I'll just keep on keeping on with what I'm doing.

 

[Katya]

Why post? to let others know that this is not really an issue at low wattage vaping.
And just cuase I like posting

Mantra? I know of no tootle mantra.

Seriously, there are people who believe that low-wattage vaping is somehow safer. I'm a low-wattage vaper myself, I like single-coil builds, wattage in low teens tops, but I can tell you from my experience that it's not necessarily the case. The only dry hits I ever experienced in my vaping career were with first generation, very low wattage devices--cartomizers and early tanks. I think Joyetech's eGo-C atomizer was the worst of them. Small diameter coils, high gauge wire and no airflow control would constantly result in absolutely vile and nauseous dry hits at 4 and 5 watts...

I haven't had a dry hit since I moved to second gen PVs and RBAs--higher wattage, higher gauges, larger coil IDs, better wicking, more airflow.

Just my

 

[zoiDman]

The man destroyed half of my hobby today.

Vaping wasn't for me just about the harm reduction, it was fun as a hobby building coils, trying wicks and God knows what else.

Regards
Tony

Sent from my keyboard through my phone or something like that.

Lets all take a Deep Breath and wait for some More info to Come Out before we get to Wound Up in all this.

 

[caferacer]

Lets all take a Deep Breath and wait for some More info to Come Out before we get to Wound Up in all this.

Pun intended?

 

[ReigntheGamer]

Lets all take a Deep Breath and wait for some More info to Come Out before we get to Wound Up in all this.

Agreed it's not like The Jackson Five just broke up, oh wait.....

 

[Katya]

Pun intended?

Knowing ZoiDman, yes.

 

[granolaboy]

Medical Doctors are not scientists. Full stop.

You may find some medical doctors that are also scientists, but a degree in medicine DOES NOT mean you know anything about the scientific process. Most medical doctors are absolutely pathetic learners and have no interest what so ever in hypothesizing, testing, observing, and concluding. They just regurgitate what they learned in school and most don't even bother to keep up with new discoveries, much less experiment on their own to discover new things.

Blind faith in medical doctors is unfounded and often downright dangerous.

Not entirely on topic, but just throwing that out there as someone who has a degree in science and employs the scientific method all day long. These guys aren't scientists. Period.

 

[zoiDman]

I don't see why this such a big deal. I, since the beginning have always made contact coils and torched them.
Now with this new info I just changed my coil style. I make spaced coils( wrapped around a screw) with out torching or dry burning
for hot spots or legs I can easily check my coils after there wicked and primed with juice
If Dr F is saying not to torch or dry burn I think we should heed his warning
I switched all my coils today, my attys still vape like they all ways have and maybe there a little safer now
I don't see this as a big deal just change your coiling style is All

You don't see why this is such a Big Deal?

I think it is a Big Deal for Anyone to come out with this Kind of Statement without any Supporting Documentation.

I have a lot of Respect for Dr. F. But to say something Like this seems Very Out of Character for someone who has Lambasted Study after Study and Article after Article as being without Proof.

Lets see the Data and Figure Out what he is Talking About.

 

[Jimi D.]

Lets all take a Deep Breath and wait for some More info to Come Out before we get to Wound Up in all this.

Absolutely. In the mean time, I've built 3 coils today without pulsing. Works great. Although my builds have very short legs. Ribbon tends to heat up at the legs being so thin.

 

[zoiDman]

Knowing ZoiDman, yes.

I was Wondering if someone would Pick Up on that?

 

[Magaro]

Off topic:

I wish some of our decision-making, life-altering, elected officials could see the discussion going on here today.

Maybe they could understand that many of us just want to enjoy vaping in a sensible, responsible, reasonably safe manner.

Maybe not, when they stick their hands in their pockets and feel all that big tobacco money.

But maybe...

 

[MacTechVpr]

If you have some links, I would love to see them.

I Always like to Learn More about what goes on with Coils Alloys.

"It is not voodoo, or related to internal combustion engines - it's the way the wire is designed - and this "feature" of Kanthal ('A' series, including A-1 and AE) has been well known since before you or I were born... and just one of the qualities that make it so common and useful. ;-)

When heated, Kanthal wire (iron-chromium-aluminum) builds up an aluminum oxide insulative coating on it's outside surface that protects the individual coils from shorting, one to another. This is called alumina (Al2O3)." —State O' Flux

Seems you're a NiCr expert z and I wouldn't dream to intrude on your preferences. My research and corresponding results from vapers has convincingly led me to believe a Kanthal based wound microcoil optimally oxidized in strain balance is the shortest distance to the goal for new vapers to learn how to complete an efficient and reliable vaporizing circuit. Simple attesting to that principle here. I'm hoping more experienced experts will please pipe up and confirm some of the principles involved, here. So far some have. It's noted and appreciated.

Happy to pitch in if you're willin' to take a shot at it.

Good luck all.

 

[MacTechVpr]

Off topic:

I wish some of our decision-making, life-altering, elected officials could see the discussion going on here today.

Maybe they could understand that many of us just want to enjoy vaping in a sensible, responsible, reasonably safe manner.

Maybe not, when they stick their hands in their pockets and feel all that big tobacco money.

But maybe...

Here, here! Good luck.

 

[MacTechVpr]

Seriously, there are people who believe that low-wattage vaping is somehow safer. I'm a low-wattage vaper myself, I like single-coil builds, wattage in low teens tops, but I can tell you from my experience that it's not necessarily the case. The only dry hits I ever experienced in my vaping career were with first generation, very low wattage devices--cartomizers and early tanks. I think Joyetech's eGo-C atomizer was the worst of them. Small diameter coils, high gauge wire and no airflow control would constantly result in absolutely vile and nauseous dry hits at 4 and 5 watts...

I haven't had a dry hit since I moved to second gen PVs and RBAs--higher wattage, higher gauges, larger coil IDs, better wicking, more airflow.

Just my

Are you saying the broader consideration of factors contributing to the vape make a difference?

You didn't say that!



Good luck.

 

[Katya]

Off topic:

I wish some of our decision-making, life-altering, elected officials could see the discussion going on here today.

Maybe they could understand that many of us just want to enjoy vaping in a sensible, responsible, reasonably safe manner.

Maybe not, when they stick their hands in their pockets and feel all that big tobacco money.

But maybe...

Can I have this on a T-shirt, please?

 

[TaketheRedPill]

Thanks a lot for a transcript. Even in worst nightmare I would not watch vape-related video for 1+ hour.

.

You're very welcome. I understood thismuch above zero on most of it, but transcribing did end my spat of insomnia quite well !

Actually, a spectrometer is very useful. Kanthal is designed to be protected by a continuous layer of aluminum oxide. If you oxidize Kanthal too much (or too many times), you can deplete the aluminum in the near surface region of the wire. Then the chromium in the alloy will preferentially migrate to the surface to oxidize, along with the iron. This new scale is, according to my quick first look at the technical literature, less adherent to the base metal and can spall off. Presumably then it could be inhaled. It would be nice to know where this occurs in the life of a coil for different styles of cleaning - dry burn vs not. It's not just about fresh coils, but how they age.

It would take a lot of metal inhalation to hack up oysters like that, Paul. Dr. F is talking about nano particles from what I can surmise. Given that most metals exhibit "fatigue" many heating and cooling cycles I is certainly possible that something is being leached off of a coil. Just how much and how dangerous it might be needs some sophisticated equipment to detect. Until that happens, keep you mind open and maybe change, instead of dry burn, those coils. Wire is pretty cheap.

I would just like to know if there is something behind this, like a study, or preliminary work; or if it is another case of what he believes to be an unknown and therefore avoidable risk. From the research I have read so far, there is no presence of metals in the vapor, I'm wondering if that has changed.

Thank you Magaro, Lessifer and awsum140. So I have a question (bearing in mind I have zip knowledge of metal anythings and I do not wrap coils). Let's say that we do have 'spalling', and, let's say there is no metal in the vapor. Could it be that the metal atoms that are spalled off, attach themselves to another metal - like the stainless fittings in the tank? Would that be why there is no metal in the vapor? If this is the hypothetical case, should we then consider all tanks disposable after a certain time?

Another 'medical-type' question related to that is, will metal oxide nanoparticles in the lungs reflect and/or amplify pre-existing polonium already embedded in the lungs from smoking ?

I'm waiting for the day that we can vaporize our eliquid with...

I spoke to my resident lazer expert and better half about this, and his explanation was, approximately, "if you could tune the lazer diode to the frequency of the PG/VG then you could gas out the PG/VG. But it would have to be somewhere in the 10.6 micron wavelength (carbon dioxide lazer wavelength) and it would have to be a minaturized diode that is reusable more than once while still remaining efficient. And it would have to be cost-effective. And at this point, it is not commercially achievable."