The end of microcoils?

[zoiDman]

NO criticism intended. I love this post. I just wanted to point out that even your average stainless steel isn't as hazardous as Dr. F. makes Kanthal (or any of our other current coil alloys) out to be.

Didn't take it as any Criticism. I just wanted to Set the Time Frame of that Thread. Something I probably should have done when I posted it.

Because Today, many people who visit this Site were not around when the SS Mesh Craze was in Full Force. It's just like if I started Talking about "Blue Foam", 90% of the People would have No Clue what I am Talking About.

BTW - Did we ever get Clarification as to what Coil Material Dr. F was Referring to in his Original Comment about Dry Burning?

 

[mechhunter]

Even though a lot of this is way over my head I am constantly drawn to this thread for new info. I respect Dr F. and everything he does and appreciate the informed discussion going on here.

Have to say that getting dual coils, even perfectly built, to heat evenly is impossible without dry burning and tweaking.

 

[Magaro]

I am trying to maintain my civility while you make vicious and ad hominem attacks on someone I consider a friend. You use charged words like irresponsible, and demand his credentials like he owes them to you. Context is all important. The ONLY thing you are basing your attacks on is this post:



NOWHERE does he suggest that the HC is coming from the Kanthal. Per the quote I gave in a previous post, he specifically says it is safer to use an atomizer WITHOUT a bridge, coil only. So then don't you think that the context of the above blog quote assumes the presence of an S.S. bridge? If you have a MODICUM of common sense, you will see you are barking at the moon. So now I am going to insist that you show me where Pedro suggests that HC is coming from the Kanthal. It IS guys like you that are the reason that friendly and intelligent people drop out of these kinds of forums. Good luck getting the information you want, armed with the attitude you carry.

"Credentials" are everything in the scientific community. Most professionals confine their scientific opinions to subjects in which they have scientific expertise. I personally have the integrity to refrain from expressing opinions about health issues, because I am a lowly PhD Metallurgical Engineer who has been working in this field for 3 decades. I expect the same courtesy (out of respect for society) from those educated/skilled in other fields. If Pedro has significant education/experience in the field of metallurgy and their behavior in high temperature applications, I simply wish to know this and have a civil discussion with him about this inflammatory subject.

 

[druckle]

Magaro, I respect your expertise in metallurgy, but you are a new vaper and may not be aware that people like Pedro, Cisco, and Dr. Farsalinos have been investigating the safety issues of vaping for a long time--they are not complete idiots.

Earlier on this thread you made an insinuation that Dr. Farsalinos may have some unsavory ulterior motives for what he does, and now this...

Deep breath, my friend.

I don't think anyone is questioning the honesty or concern of anyone. I do know that certain comments made by Dr. Farsalino are not sound from the standpoint of materials science. I believe Dr. Farsalino also mentioned the name of Mr. Caravelo as a a respected material scientist that he checked with in support his comments.

I have the greatest respect for Dr. Farsalinos past contributions to knowledge about vaping and I sincerely hope he will offer scientifically accurate information about vaping in the future. I am unsure of Mr. Caravelo's activities in materials science so it would be helpful to have more information since Dr. Farsalino suggests that Mr. Caravelo is a consulted authority with respect to his statements.

The concern is that there are a lot of folks who want to kill vaping entirely and comments like these provide ammunition to the uninformed and/or malevolent to be used to make vaping illegal or impossible to participate in. All folks with materials science backgrounds are asking is for scientific evidence to be supplied to support questionable statements or clarifications to be issued which are not ego driven but scientifically based statements of fact. This is not a matter of emotion but a sincere hope that the truth can be recognized and that error will not be allowed to harm the smoking cessation potential of vaping.

 

[Magaro]

Based specifically on that quote above, is it not more likely that given kanthal develops an aluminum scale instead of a chromium scale that if any spalling were occurring that we would be in fact inhaling minute amounts of alumina instead of hexavalent chromium. And even if that were the case, your spalling happens near 900 degrees Celsius or above... no one really vapes at that temperature anyway even at subohm levels. The point being we would not be in a situation to inhale much at all, even given extreme subohm conditions during normal vaping - not to mention the fact that the juice itself with its viscosity would help to minimize some of the spalling being transmitted I would assume.

I didn't use the quote to support the scientific fact that Kanthal forms an alumina scale. I was simply using it to illustrate that even 309 stainless steel, an alloy which DOES form a chromium scale, cannot produce Cr(V1) - hexavalent chromium, which the GOVERNMENT recognizes as a severe health risk, except at EXTREMELY high temperatures. Kanthal A1 forms an alumina scale, which prevents diffusion of chromium to the surface, and suppresses the evolution of chromium in any of its forms.

 

[LouisLeBeau]

Blessed civility. I wasn't going to participate further in this, but I would like to point out that the poster who posted the snippet from Pedro's blog, that I suggest is inconclusive re Kanthal, started their post with this statement "I think that Pedro (from Caravela Mods) , who also participate in Farsalinos answer about the radio declarations about dry burns …may be a lot to do with these statements."

Now that is the opinion of that poster, and "may" is a word worth noticing. It is not definitive nor does it indicate that Pedro''s known aversion to heating S.S. crosses over to Kanthal. I assume you, like I, have not watched the 1+ hour video to have an opinion of our own. But since we've crossed swords so to speak, I feel a debt to you to do so. If you do also, we can discuss that. If there are any specific statements specifically BY Pedro that you might take exception to, I might be inclined to forward those questions and ask if Pedro would care to give a response. But please note, he does deserve respect in my opinion, and it will be required if we're going to proceed.

 

[zoiDman]

I didn't use the quote to support the scientific fact that Kanthal forms an alumina scale. I was simply using it to illustrate that even 309 stainless steel, an alloy which DOES form a chromium scale, cannot produce Cr(V1) - hexavalent chromium, which the GOVERNMENT recognizes as a severe health risk, except at EXTREMELY high temperatures. Kanthal A1 forms an alumina scale, which prevents diffusion of chromium to the surface, and suppresses the evolution of chromium in any of its forms.

How High is EXTREMELY High Temperatures?

 

[tchavei]

Never knew that the Caravela mod maker was the same Pedro as the one collaborating with Dr. F.

Unless one has the person's full name (could be up to 2 names plus 4 surnames in Portugal) or knows the University at which he works, it's going to be hard to dig some info. His name is rather common so one would need more 'keywords' to find something.

I could try to contact him outside the Internet channels but I don't really know what good could come out of it.

Regards
Tony

Sent from my keyboard through my phone or something like that.

 

[druckle]

Blessed civility. I wasn't going to participate further in this, but I would like to point out that the poster who posted the snippet from Pedro's blog, that I suggest is inconclusive re Kanthal, started their post with this statement "I think that Pedro (from Caravela Mods) , who also participate in Farsalinos answer about the radio declarations about dry burns …may be a lot to do with these statements."

Now that is the opinion of that poster, and "may" is a word worth noticing. It is not definitive nor does it indicate that Pedro''s known aversion to heating S.S. crosses over to Kanthal. I assume you, like I, have not watched the 1+ hour video to have an opinion of our own. But since we've crossed swords so to speak, I feel a debt to you to do so. If you do also, we can discuss that. If there are any specific statements specifically BY Pedro that you might take exception to, I might be inclined to forward those questions and ask if Pedro would care to give a response. But please note, he does deserve respect in my opinion, and it will be required if we're going to proceed.

I am not sure what statements Pedro has, or has not, made. Dr. Farsalino has cited him as a materials expert that he says he consulted with in support of his statements about harmful metallics being emitted from e cigarette coils by dry burning and that this is "the worst thing" we can do. It could be that Pedro is being drug backwards into a position he never took....or maybe he does agree with it. We don't know as of now. Possibly Pedro and / or Dr. Farsalino will clarify.

 

[Magaro]

How High is EXTREMELY High Temperatures?

Dude, you're killing me. Seriously, every alloy, every specific application (every environment) is different - and for most has not been studied in excruciatingly detail. But, according to the scientific literature I can access, for EVERY Iron/Chrome/Nickel/Aluminum alloy of concern, the temperature of concern (WRT Cr(VI) is well above any temperature relevant to vaping. UNLESS you are dry burning your coils and huffing the vapors during the burn. Which is NEVER a good idea (why would you want to inhale a dry burning coil anyway? just go huff on an analog if you WANT to get cancer - it's most likely WAY more effective).

 

[Lessifer]

Blessed civility. I wasn't going to participate further in this, but I would like to point out that the poster who posted the snippet from Pedro's blog, that I suggest is inconclusive re Kanthal, started their post with this statement "I think that Pedro (from Caravela Mods) , who also participate in Farsalinos answer about the radio declarations about dry burns …may be a lot to do with these statements."

Now that is the opinion of that poster, and "may" is a word worth noticing. It is not definitive nor does it indicate that Pedro''s known aversion to heating S.S. crosses over to Kanthal. I assume you, like I, have not watched the 1+ hour video to have an opinion of our own. But since we've crossed swords so to speak, I feel a debt to you to do so. If you do also, we can discuss that. If there are any specific statements specifically BY Pedro that you might take exception to, I might be inclined to forward those questions and ask if Pedro would care to give a response. But please note, he does deserve respect in my opinion, and it will be required if we're going to proceed.

I could be wrong but I don't think Pedro was in the interview, Dr. F's blog post lists him as someone he consulted on this, and that's where he came into the picture.

Either way, Dr. F's blog(at least to me) explains this whole mess as "Some studies have shown metal in vapor, even though at really low levels, and we're not sure where that metal is coming from. My opinion is, it COULD be coming from the coil, and dry burning COULD make the coil more apt to release metal in the vapor. So if you don't need to do it, don't do it. We have not done anything yet to determine that this is the case."

To which I say, pulsing coils while building them helps me eliminate hot spots, which I feel are of higher concern, so I'll continue to pulse my coils.

 

[zoiDman]

Dude, you're killing me. Seriously, every alloy, every specific application (every environment) is different - and for most has not been studied in excruciatingly detail. But, according to the scientific literature I can access, for EVERY Iron/Chrome/Nickel/Aluminum alloy of concern, the temperature of concern (WRT Cr(VI) is well above any temperature relevant to vaping. UNLESS you are dry burning your coils and huffing the vapors during the burn. Which is NEVER a good idea (why would you want to inhale a dry burning coil anyway? just go huff on an analog if you WANT to get cancer - it's most likely WAY more effective).

I thought you were Talking about 309 SS ?

 

[Alien Traveler]

Magaro, I respect your expertise in metallurgy, but you are a new vaper and may not be aware that people like Pedro, Cisco, and Dr. Farsalinos have been investigating the safety issues of vaping for a long time--they are not complete idiots.

I am sorry, but in the field of metallurgy they look like ones

 

[Magaro]

I could be wrong but I don't think Pedro was in the interview, Dr. F's blog post lists him as someone he consulted on this, and that's where he came into the picture.

Either way, Dr. F's blog(at least to me) explains this whole mess as "Some studies have shown metal in vapor, even though at really low levels, and we're not sure where that metal is coming from. My opinion is, it COULD be coming from the coil, and dry burning COULD make the coil more apt to release metal in the vapor. So if you don't need to do it, don't do it. We have not done anything yet to determine that this is the case."

To which I say, pulsing coils while building them helps me eliminate hot spots, which I feel are of higher concern, so I'll continue to pulse my coils.

Should we happen to meet someday, I hope we have the good sense to disconnect from the insanity and have an intelligent discourse about the universe.

Heading to the lair to dry burn another pair of Kanthal A1 coils.

 

[zoiDman]

Dude, you're killing me. Seriously, every alloy, every specific application (every environment) is different - and for most has not been studied in excruciatingly detail. But, according to the scientific literature I can access, for EVERY Iron/Chrome/Nickel/Aluminum alloy of concern, the temperature of concern (WRT Cr(VI) is well above any temperature relevant to vaping. UNLESS you are dry burning your coils and huffing the vapors during the burn. Which is NEVER a good idea (why would you want to inhale a dry burning coil anyway? just go huff on an analog if you WANT to get cancer - it's most likely WAY more effective).

BTW - Since you Probably were Not Around the ECF when the SS Wick was Popular.

The Concern some people had with Cr(VI) was Not that they were Inhaling Cr(Vi) from the fumes while Torching a piece of SS Mesh. What the Concern was whether Cr(VI) was being formed on the Mesh and then might Migrate to the e-Liquid.

 

[Alien Traveler]

I could be wrong but I don't think Pedro was in the interview, Dr. F's blog post lists him as someone he consulted on this, and that's where he came into the picture.

Exactly. And still it is written in his blog thet metals have "molecular structure", which is complete nonsense. It is very basic piece of knowledge that is learned in the very beginning by metallurgists, chemists, etc. It means that not Dr.F nor Pedro Carvalho know metallurgy or chemistry. That's the problem.

 

[Magaro]

I am sorry, but in the field of metallurgy they look like ones

BTW - Since you Probably were Not Around the ECF when the SS Wick was Popular.

The Concern some people had with Cr(VI) was Not that they were Inhaling Cr(Vi) from the fumes while Torching a piece of SS Mesh. What the Concern was whether Cr(VI) was being formed on the Mesh and then might Migrate to the e-Liquid.

Thanks for the background info. That is an even less improbable concern, but I can see how people could worry about it.

 

[zoiDman]

Thanks for the background info. That is an even less improbable concern, but I can see how people could worry about it.

I think what Fueled the Concerns about SS Wicks and Cr(VI), just like what is Going on here with the "Dry Burn" comments, is that there was Never any Scientific Data either Supporting or Dismissing it.

Just People with Opinions posting them.

But then Cotton hit the Scene. And there was a Mass Migration to Cotton Wicks.

 

[Alien Traveler]

Let's remember that kanthal/nichrom heaters are about everywhere and often they are heated to the red glow for hours/days without any harm to people. No Cr VI, no worries.

 

[zoiDman]

Let's remember that kanthal/nichrom heaters are about everywhere and often they are heated to the red glow for hours/days without any harm to people. No Cr VI, no worries.

So Cr(VI) can't form on Kanthal or NiChrome heating Elements at Normal Operating Temperature? Or should I say, when they are at coil "Dry Burn" Temperatures.