The end of microcoils?

[Alien Traveler]

I think it is More a case of People do Not Know who to Believe.

One side says Something is Bad. One side says there is Nothing to Worry about.

People ask if e-liquids can have an Effect on a Coil Material, any type of Coil Material? There aren't any Clear Answers.

For some question there have very clear answers:

People ask How Hot a Coil gets when it is Dry Burned? There doesn't seem to be a Definitive Answer.

It's an easy one. Just take a look at your coil and compare to color temperature chart (link was given a bit earlier in this thread). Dry burn temperatures are very safe, especially if you stay in red or orange region.

People ask What Temperatures are Required for Cr Oxides to convert to Cr(VI) in a specific Alloy? Or if they even Can Form. There isn't any Consensus buy Extreme Temperature. Or Maybe they can but its Not Probable.

Do not know exactly, but well above temperatures of dry burning and above recommended limit for Kanthal, which is 2550 F. Usually people responsible for safety say that their main concern is welding (i.e. melting).

I didn't like the Statements that Dr. F made regarding Burn Burning. And I found the Lack of Supporting Documentation Baffling. But I see the Same thing going on with Many of the Questions that are Asked on this Forum.

I think it is Just Forum Life.

 

[Magaro]

From Pedro:

Comparing the values of metals concentration with outdoor values, IMO, is not the most appropriate choice, because these values will depend on the street that the outdoor sample is collected. I would prefer to compare them with recommended limits in places of work.

The bar keeps getting set higher and higher. At what point can we have a discussion about this?

 

[zoiDman]

...

Do not know exactly, but well above temperatures of dry burning and above recommended limit for Kanthal, which is 2550 F. Usually people responsible for safety say that their main concern is welding (i.e. melting).

Cool. I would like to verify this Temperature. And do some further reading.

Do you know of some links.

I guess the Last Question, the one about the Possible Effects of e-Liquids on Coil Materials/Surface Oxides is kinda Hard to Answer?

Because I haven't seen a Lot of Info on that one.

 

[Alien Traveler]

...
The scientific method.
...

In this thread we are talking about oxidation during dry burning. All needed data can be found in technical data sheets of discussed alloys. No need in science, just some proper technical education. Actually the only needed data is that Kanthal is safe to use continously at temperatures up to 2550 F.

 

[Vwls]

From Pedro:

Dear Dr. Duane Ruckle [druckle]:

It is a privilege to learn from you. You have more experience than I have years of life.

Allow me to ask you a question. In your opinion, a safe level of delamination in a turbine engine can be extrapolated to inhalation limits? I assume that hundreds of nanometers 200-300nm of delamination in a turbine would represent a failure. Can we extrapolate that they are safe to inhale?

 

[Lessifer]

I think I'm going to bow out of this thread, too many alerts on my phone. @zoiDman PM me if someone does a study analyzing the aerosol from a pulsed/dry-burned coil versus a non pulsed coil.

Thanks for all the info folks!

 

[zoiDman]

I think I'm going to bow out of this thread, too many alerts on my phone. @zoiDman PM me if someone does a study analyzing the aerosol from a pulsed/dry-burned coil versus a non pulsed coil.

Thanks for all the info folks!

No Problem Lessifer. I'm getting Close Myself.

Have a Good Night.

 

[Katya]

In this thread we are talking about oxidation during dry burning. All needed data can be found in technical data sheets of discussed alloys. No need in science, just some proper technical education. Actually the only needed data is that Kanthal is safe to use continously at temperatures up to 2550 F.

Repeatedly heated and cooled and constantly saturated with eliquids containing all kinds of chemicals? And do we know what happens to those chemicals when they are suddenly being turned into vapor?

Are you satisfied that you know all the answers? Is so, I envy you.

 

[Alien Traveler]

Cool. I would like to verify this Temperature. And do some further reading.

Do you know of some links.

Iron-chromium-aluminium (FeCrAl) wire — Kanthal

I guess the Last Question, the one about the Possible Effects of e-Liquids on Coil Materials/Surface Oxides is kinda Hard to Answer?
Because I haven't seen a Lot of Info on that one.

It is tough question. It looks like nobody have an answer. I believe VG and PG should not be a problem. As for flavorings... In a worst case scenario of pretty aggressive flavoring user may see increase in coil resistance with time - because of its "dissolution". Have anybody seen it? I use very low concentration of flavorings, never seen something like this (except for welded coils, but for them welded spots could be of concern)

 

[Alien Traveler]

Repeatedly heated and cooled and constantly saturated with eliquids containing all kinds of chemicals? And do we know what happens to those chemicals when they are suddenly being turned into vapor?

Are you satisfied that that you know all the answers? Is so, I envy you.

Let me repeat again: I am talking about dry burning
Why you did not read my response?

 

[Magaro]

I assure you that the letter is from the real Pedro; he is a long time friend. The new account was him but it would not allow him to post (new member regulations) - this is why he asked me to post it for him. He is not a registered supplier on ECF and no longer has the account he had here years ago.

So has Pedro met the post requirements yet to post for himself? Just wondering.

 

[zoiDman]

Iron-chromium-aluminium (FeCrAl) wire — Kanthal


It is tough question. It looks like nobody have an answer. I believe VG and PG should not be a problem. As for flavorings... In a worst case scenario of pretty aggressive flavoring user may see increase in coil resistance with time - because of its "dissolution". Have anybody seen it? I use very low concentration of flavorings, never seen something like this (except for welded coils, but for them welded spots could be of concern)

Hmmm... Not much in that Link about Cr(VI). In fact, I didn't see Any mention of Cr(VI). Maybe I missed it.

Seems like there was More Info in that Study from Finland I posted Yesterday.

 

[druckle]

From Pedro:

Dear Dr. Duane Ruckle [druckle]:

It is a privilege to learn from you. You have more experience than I have years of life.

Allow me to ask you a question. In your opinion, a safe level of delamination in a turbine engine can be extrapolated to inhalation limits? I assume that hundreds of nanometers 200-300nm of delamination in a turbine would represent a failure. Can we extrapolate that they are safe to inhale?

The initial spalling of the oxide is detected by conventional metallographic sections, by electron microscopy of the exposed surfaces and by thermo gravimetric analysis. In most turbine engine evaluations of this phenomena the specimens are exposed to high velocity gas streams (combustor exhaust flame at near Mach 1 with hard carbon particles present to impinge on the specimen surface]. This exposure is in my judgement many orders of magnitude more severe than any possible high temperature exposure in an e cigarette device. All of this analysis is directed at detecting the smallest initial spalling incident and most definitely NOT failure/pitting or fracture of the turbine blade.

 

[Alien Traveler]

Hmmm... Not much in that Link about Cr(VI). In fact, I didn't see Any mention of Cr(VI). Maybe I missed it.

Seems like there was More Info in that Study from Finland I posted Yesterday.

Have you really read this thread and the Finnish report? You may find in both of them that the main concern with Cr 6 represent welding.
Sorry, I am tired to repeat again and again the same, the same, the same... Really tired.

 

[440BB]

So has Pedro met the post requirements yet to post for himself? Just wondering.

This ongoing personal pursuit of a couple people suggesting relatively reasonable caution has gotten tiresome. Unsubscribed.

 

[zoiDman]

Have you really read this thread and the Finnish report? You may find in both of them that the main concern with Cr 6 represent welding.
Sorry, I am tired to repeat again and again the same, the same, the same... Really tired.

Sorry Alien.

I was Just trying to Verify a Temperature someone Posted on an Internet Forum.

It takes personal work to find the truth. Perusing all the available technical literature is a start. Questioning those who make statements then are unwilling to validate their statements with fact is a good step.

 

[Katya]

Let me repeat again: I am talking about dry burning
Why you did not read my response?

Why are you talking about dry burning? I never even mentioned dry burning in my post. My post was a response to Z's post.

Why didn't you read the post(s) you were responding to?

 

[druckle]

We started with a discussion centered around the statement that even one short "dry burn" exposure of an e cigarette coil was "disastrous" now we seem to be morphing into whether e liquids are safe to ever be in contact with an e cigarette coil.
I think we are now in the realm of watching to see if the sky is falling and asking for proof that it is not.

I have spent a great deal of time trying to be helpful to all by reviewing my files and contacting others in an attempt to clarify and answer question related to the original issue. If we really want to question all things vaping with the hope that we can find something more harmful with it than with cigarette smoking then I do not wish to invest more personal time with respect to the forum.

 

[Alien Traveler]

We started with a discussion centered around the statement that even one short "dry burn" exposure of an e cigarette coil was "disastrous" now we seem to be morphing into whether e liquids are safe to ever be in contact with an e cigarette coil.
I think we are now in the realm of watching to see if the sky is falling and asking for proof that it is not.

I have spent a great deal of time trying to be helpful to all by reviewing my files and contacting others in an attempt to clarify and answer question related to the original issue. If we really want to question all things vaping with the hope that we can find something more harmful with it than with cigarette smoking then I do not wish to invest more personal time with respect to the forum.

It was obvious from the beginning that Dr.F apologists will flood the thread.
I am tired also. People do not want knowledge, they need guru.

 

[sonicdsl]

Stop with the personal attacks, or this thread will be closed
Or worse.
Thank you​