The end of microcoils?

[six]

Oh, that and the sweet smell of money in their pockets from Big tobacco.

While Big Tobacco certainly has a dog in the fight, their dog is a lot smaller than Big Pharma's dog. .... While BT would like to squeeze every nickel they can out of any customer they can, it remains that they will sell the tobacco to whomever extracts the nicotine no matter who it is providing the delivery device or method. They'd like to be the one's providing the delivery, but they don't *have* to be the one's providing the delivery to still make money. Big Pharma, on the other hand, makes nothing on nicotine if they don't provide the delivery method.

I know this is well off the topic of this thread... But it needs to be said: Though each and every one of us has reason to be disgruntled with Big Tobacco, we can't continue such an adversarial relationship with them. Three countries produce pretty close to 90% of the world's tobacco. Right now, BT largely views vapers as parasitic. We need to do our part to make them feel more like it is a symbiotic relationship. Just imagine what happens when Turkey, China, and the US no longer produce tobacco.... then we got no get up and go in our juice. We have to accept the fact that we need BT so that there is nic in the juice. Big Pharma, on the other hand, has no real business I can identify putting their nose in to vaping. All of their science is junk science. All of it.

 

[LouisLeBeau]

While Big Tobacco certainly has a dog in the fight, their dog is a lot smaller than Big Pharma's dog. .... While BT would like to squeeze every nickel they can out of any customer they can, it remains that they will sell the tobacco to whomever extracts the nicotine no matter who it is providing the delivery device or method. They'd like to be the one's providing the delivery, but they don't *have* to be the one's providing the delivery to still make money. Big Pharma, on the other hand, makes nothing on nicotine if they don't provide the delivery method.

I know this is well off the topic of this thread... But it needs to be said: Though each and every one of us has reason to be disgruntled with Big Tobacco, we can't continue such an adversarial relationship with them. Three countries produce pretty close to 90% of the world's tobacco. Right now, BT largely views vapers as parasitic. We need to do our part to make them feel more like it is a symbiotic relationship. Just imagine what happens when Turkey, China, and the US no longer produce tobacco.... then we got no get up and go in our juice. We have to accept the fact that we need BT so that there is nic in the juice. Big Pharma, on the other hand, has no real business I can identify putting their nose in to vaping. All of their science is junk science. All of it.

I agree with your comments re Big Pharma, but BT plays no role in our Nicotine extracts. Per THIS (albeit dated) CASAA link, all nicotine extract currently sold in the U.S. is NOT manufactured in the U.S.

B.T. seems hell bent on selling expensive, ineffective devices and capturing the shelf space in go to places to make vaping irrelevant to smokers. We need BT like we need a hole in our heads. What we need is for gas stations and party stores to give shelf space to more effective and less expensive alternatives to cigalikes for vaping to TRULY explode as an alternative to cigarettes.

 

[six]

I agree with your comments re Big Pharma, but BT plays no role in our Nicotine extracts. Per THIS (albeit dated) CASAA link, all nicotine extract currently sold in the U.S. is NOT manufactured in the U.S.

Yes. Dated. There are now a number of Nicotine Extraction Plants in the US. The biggest one is USA Liquid Nicotine based in Albany, Georgia. They buy their air cured leaf tobacco from a couple of co-ops in Kentucky. --- UST will have their extraction plant in production by October. There are others - some small, some planned to be big. All of those folks are holding their breath and trying not to spend too much money not knowing what the deeming regulations will look like.


EDIT: Google "tobacco farmer newsletter" dated May 07, 2014.

 

[orion7319]

Please share the "reliable information" you have gathered from this thread.

While I don't doubt the sincere motives of some, and question the unknown background and unpublished resumes of others, I'll patiently await the published test results of the "scientists", when it occurs. Should not the debate or argument, as well as questions concerning the doctors and his colleagues statements also apply to anyone else making scientific claims?

Perhaps I'm wrong, but when do debate opinions equal scientific fact? I'm glad some have already made a decision on how to proceed based on what they have read so far. I'm afraid It's a long road ahead!

Got me there, I am assuming that folks posting here are who they say they are and do indeed possess the creditials they claim to have. Based on that assumption there are reasonable assumptions we can make based on known properties of the metals in question. This is by no means conclusive, and I am not claiming it is. We really do need comprehensive study and analysis of the risks of vaping, to the degree we can know with as close to to absolute certainty as is possible. Unfortunately I don't see this ever getting done without a major influx of funding for the studies that would require. What we have now is basically one research doctor who's specialty is cardiology and his colleagues. I respect his finding and his concerns and I never said I dismiss those concerns, but he's all we have who's looking at it for Gods sake! So yeah, it is a long road ahead... In the meantime all we can do is make the best decisions we can with the limited information we have.

 

[Callipleura]

Dear Doctor F,
No need to do 1 hour radio shows from now on - they are too informal by nature and you already know the internet is full of "experts/ideologs" just waiting for slips like using the word is instead of might. You have reached the big time. Oh, and you're not to have an opinion in an informal context like a radio show... that is only reserved for the internet "experts/ideologs". Instead only point people to your published studies in regards to vaping. Do not provide "laymen" follow ups either, you have already collected your thoughts and watched for bias as much as humanly possible (hopefully) in your writing - so no need for dumbing things down to a "good" or "bad" level (that is what the media is for!) which is what the laymen wants but is a trap factually... lol...

Kidding aside it was a good show overall. It is nice to hear you chat about things more informally and hope you continue to do so (though I think you'll be less open to "chat" over time in public).

 

[orion7319]

I'm not the metallurgist but these metals form a thin layer of oxide that inhibits further oxidation beneath the oxide layer. That's why these metals don't rust away like iron which just continues to oxidize. This happens whether you dry burn or not. Dry burn (heating) does speed up the process of forming that initial thin layer.

In the "don't dry burn" side of the argument, that side is apparently saying that dry burning either forms an excessively deep oxide layer that then sloghs off when you vape, or that it form some disassociated "molecule" that's is bad in some unspecified way.

It is bad to inhale large quantities of the elemental metals or their oxides so if we are doing either, that would be bad.

I dry burn.

You know, in this whole thread no one has even once mentioned the caramlized ejuice gunk that quickly forms over the coils.. The whole reason people dry bun to clean in the first place. Does that layer provide further insulation, trapping the oxides, metals on the coils, making all of this moot? Or does it further corrode the coil and break it down releasing metals from the coil? Does this layer of gunk create aldehydes or anything else? I dunno it just seems we aren't looking at the whole picture here, and has doctor F considered all these factors and variables in his research?

 

[ChuckB]

I've read through this whole thread in the last week or so and there's been a lot of food for thought here. Before this thread, I've never given much thought about the coils I build, more interested in getting them functional and semi long lasting. It's never really crossed my mind to care why or how they work, just that they do.

There have been a few people that really seem like they know what they are talking about, but this is the internet, we are all semi anonymous so I can't really say that they are the experts that they seem to be, but they have also given links to data sheets that do back up what they are saying. So for me, I will give them the benefit of doubt, and what they are saying makes sense to me especially with the data sheets backing it up.

When I first started rebuilding my coils I had a lot of trouble with consistency. I only use a couple of devices and they both use the same coils. Reading posts / tutorials from MacTechVpr is how I really learned the mechanics of consistent coils, now 9 out of 10 coils I build work the first time, that 10th coil is probably more to blame on my 60 year old eyes and hands than on technique.

The method I use for cleaning really hasn't changed from the way I cleaned CE/2 carts, I wash with hot water, dry burn, and if it's stubborn, re-wash with pure grain alcohol and dry burn again. Now the only real difference is if the gunk is stubborn, I rip out the coil and rebuild.

With the information that has been posted here by Magaro, Allen Traveler, Druckle, and others I am going to pay a bit more attention on how hot the coils get when I dry burn, but I'm not going to stop dry burning. I'm also going to continue pulsing my coils before I wick them as the meter only tells me so much about the quality of the coil, the visual look for hot spots tells me so much more.

This thread has been very educational for me and I thank everyone that has participated.

 

[druckle]

I've read through this whole thread in the last week or so and there's been a lot of food for thought here. Before this thread, I've never given much thought about the coils I build, more interested in getting them functional and semi long lasting. It's never really crossed my mind to care why or how they work, just that they do.

There have been a few people that really seem like they know what they are talking about, but this is the internet, we are all semi anonymous so I can't really say that they are the experts that they seem to be, but they have also given links to data sheets that do back up what they are saying. So for me, I will give them the benefit of doubt, and what they are saying makes sense to me especially with the data sheets backing it up.

When I first started rebuilding my coils I had a lot of trouble with consistency. I only use a couple of devices and they both use the same coils. Reading posts / tutorials from MacTechVpr is how I really learned the mechanics of consistent coils, now 9 out of 10 coils I build work the first time, that 10th coil is probably more to blame on my 60 year old eyes and hands than on technique.

The method I use for cleaning really hasn't changed from the way I cleaned CE/2 carts, I wash with hot water, dry burn, and if it's stubborn, re-wash with pure grain alcohol and dry burn again. Now the only real difference is if the gunk is stubborn, I rip out the coil and rebuild.

With the information that has been posted here by Magaro, Allen Traveler, Druckle, and others I am going to pay a bit more attention on how hot the coils get when I dry burn, but I'm not going to stop dry burning. I'm also going to continue pulsing my coils before I wick them as the meter only tells me so much about the quality of the coil, the visual look for hot spots tells me so much more.

This thread has been very educational for me and I thank everyone that has participated.

AND I thank you for your comments.
It's been frustrating to spend a lot of time trying to help and find there are folks who not only do not appreciate the effort but are antagonistic to it. It almost makes me feel that it's better to not try to help anyone. Comments like yours keep me thinking maybe...just maybe it's worth the work trying to help other folks.
Thanks again

 

[orion7319]

AND I thank you for your comments.
It's been frustrating to spend a lot of time trying to help and find there are folks who not only do not appreciate the effort but are antagonistic to it. It almost makes me feel that it's better to not try to help anyone. Comments like yours keep me thinking maybe...just maybe it's worth the work trying to help other folks.
Thanks again

There are probably way more people who are simply reading this thread and are appreciative of the info who aren't posting, then there are people who feel compelled for whatever reason to be loud and antagonistic. That's just how Internet forums work, anonymity encourages negativity. For what it's worth, I appreciate the effort you have put into this topic.

 

[Magaro]

AND I thank you for your comments.
It's been frustrating to spend a lot of time trying to help and find there are folks who not only do not appreciate the effort but are antagonistic to it. It almost makes me feel that it's better to not try to help anyone. Comments like yours keep me thinking maybe...just maybe it's worth the work trying to help other folks.
Thanks again

Totally agree. Its about the people who really care about the safety of vaping and who come to this thread looking for information. They're why I chose to stick this thing out. The bashing by a few overzealous believers has been the price paid. Worth it in the end, I think.

Oh, and I've very much enjoyed the intelligent discussion with yourself and several others (you know who you are).

 

[Magaro]

While Big Tobacco certainly has a dog in the fight, their dog is a lot smaller than Big Pharma's dog. .... While BT would like to squeeze every nickel they can out of any customer they can, it remains that they will sell the tobacco to whomever extracts the nicotine no matter who it is providing the delivery device or method. They'd like to be the one's providing the delivery, but they don't *have* to be the one's providing the delivery to still make money.

True, but the profit margin from selling cigarettes is pretty high. I don't think that would be true in an open, lightly-regulated, vaping-dominant world. At the very least, to protect their profits they need to push for a closed-system e-cig world where virtually everyone else is locked out by regulations and/or the cost of entry.

 

[druckle]

True, but the profit margin from selling cigarettes is pretty high. I don't think that would be true in an open, lightly-regulated, vaping-dominant world. At the very least, to protect their profits they need to push for a closed-system e-cig world where virtually everyone else is locked out by regulations and/or the cost of entry.

I think you are ABSOLUTELY, TOTALLY right about the point of closed market/regulations.....
It's about controlling the market so only the huge and very rich corporations can participate. I cannot see it any other way!

 

[Magaro]

True, but the profit margin from selling cigarettes is pretty high. I don't think that would be true in an open, lightly-regulated, vaping-dominant world. At the very least, to protect their profits they need to push for a closed-system e-cig world where virtually everyone else is locked out by regulations and/or the cost of entry.

And in BTs world, that means vaping must go. Or at least be driven so far underground as to be financially irrelevant.

This is a war, people.

 

[Magaro]

You know, in this whole thread no one has even once mentioned the caramlized ejuice gunk that quickly forms over the coils.. The whole reason people dry bun to clean in the first place. Does that layer provide further insulation, trapping the oxides, metals on the coils, making all of this moot? Or does it further corrode the coil and break it down releasing metals from the coil? Does this layer of gunk create aldehydes or anything else? I dunno it just seems we aren't looking at the whole picture here, and has doctor F considered all these factors and variables in his research?

Is there an organic chemist in the group who could comment on the nature of the liquid breakdown products that form on a coil? I personally vape mainly NETs right now, and I suspect that I'm dealing with a pretty interesting primordial soup/cake on my coils when they gunk up. It would be nice if the crust was a simple impermeable carbon layer, but that seems unlikely. I'm more concerned about the vapors given off a gunked coil coming from the e-liquid than I am about an interaction with my coils. But I would like to know more.

 

[3mg Meniere]

EDIT: Google "tobacco farmer newsletter" dated May 07, 2014.

LIQUID NICOTINE PRODUCTION IS NOW A REALITY IN THE U.S.


Liquid nicotine for e-cigarettes is now being produced on a commercial scale in the United States. The manufacturer is USA Liquid Nicotine, with extraction facilities in Albany, Ga., and buying and marketing offices in Harrisburg, Ky. Managing partner Brian Furnish, a farmer who served several years as general manager of Burley Tobacco Growers Cooperative Association in Lexington, Ky., says the company is acquiring American burley and is selling pure liquid nicotine extracted from it. "We believe we are the first company using American leaf to produce liquid nicotine in this country," Furnish tells TFN. Demand has been very good. "We have sold everything we have extracted. We will try to ramp up production in the near future, if possible." So far, Furnish says they have only used air-cured leaf, mainly burley, because of its higher nicotine content relative to flue-cured and other types. It is cured normally, then individual leaves are stripped and co-collected for the extraction process. To date, all has been from Kentucky.
How big of a market could liquid nicotine be for American farmers? Furnish doesn't know, but he thinks if could be quite large. "All the major U.S. cigarette companies have committed to manufacturing e-cigarettes ," he says.
"It will take a lot of tobacco to produce the liquid nicotine they will need." He thinks liquid nicotine from American leaf will have a big competitive advantage because of the high quality standards in this country compared to China, India and Europe, the current major sources of e-cigarette nicotine. "Our tobacco is fully traceable," Furnish says. Future growers will need to be prepared to adopt practices tailored to liquid nicotine production. Among the areas where new recommendations may have to be developed are choice of varieties on the basis of nicotine content, use of a newly designed fertility scheme and timing of topping and suckering. Watch for more details on this topic in future issues of TFN.

Tobacco Farmer Newsletter

Interesting.

 

[MacTechVpr]

I've read through this whole thread in the last week or so and there's been a lot of food for thought here. Before this thread, I've never given much thought about the coils I build, more interested in getting them functional and semi long lasting. It's never really crossed my mind to care why or how they work, just that they do...

This thread has been very educational for me and I thank everyone that has participated.

If these circumstances have spurred a renewed or encouraged curiosity about how our coils and devices function then we are all very lucky indeed.

Vape on Chuck!

 

[beckdg]

I think some of the critical questions are: who is going to conduct the study, what sort of vaping rig are they going to investigate, and from where are they going to receive their funding? It seems as though many of the people participating in this thread are concerned with "rebuildables" in their various forms. I would suggest that we are a (growing) minority, but one of only minor concern in the larger e-cig debate. And thus we are of little concern to most researchers who must demonstrate the "relevance" of their work in order to acquire funding. Cartos and such are more complex and introduce many material variables into a study, but they address the concerns of legislators and Big Tobacco, who wish to ban vaping except with "closed" systems. Ideally, from our perspective, a health research professional with expertise in inhalation toxicology or a related field, with support from the vaping community (CASAA?), the organic chemistry community, and the high temperature oxidation/corrosion metallurgy community, would undertake a study which is properly posed. In my mind, the question is this: what "chemicals of concern" are emitted from a rebuildable vaping mod for a variety of coil materials and different thermal exposures? This would mean the correct alloy wires, appropriate wicking materials, appropriate vaping liquids (including flavor components, which can have different corrosion characteristics than a simple PG/VG mix), relevant voltage/current cycles, and the correct analytical techniques to identify all of the elements/compounds of concern and their actual chemical state (chromium is a totally different beast in its difference oxidation states).

What we are looking for is no small task. It's important to us, but I'm not sure it's important to the world at large. We may just have to figure this out for ourselves to our own personal level of comfort/satisfaction. And we need to recognize that, in doing so, we will have little or no impact on the feces-storm brewing globally which threatens to take away our right to vape.

Welcome to life on the frontier.

[emoji144]

Tapatyped

 

[druckle]

Is there an organic chemist in the group who could comment on the nature of the liquid breakdown products that form on a coil? I personally vape mainly NETs right now, and I suspect that I'm dealing with a pretty interesting primordial soup/cake on my coils when they gunk up. It would be nice if the crust was a simple impermeable carbon layer, but that seems unlikely. I'm more concerned about the vapors given off a gunked coil coming from the e-liquid than I am about an interaction with my coils. But I would like to know more.

NETS? Oh my GOD....the sky IS falling. YOU NEED A MEDICAL DOCTOR QUICK!!!!!

 

[Magaro]

NETS? Oh my GOD....the sky IS falling. YOU NEED A MEDICAL DOCTOR QUICK!!!!!

Probably not, but most NETs sure can gunk a coil quickly, and I'm guessing they start out with more different organic compounds than most e-liquids. Just seems the potential exists for a lot of interesting high temperature organic chemistry to occur.

 

[Cacique]

I haven't posted much but I want to say thank you to everyone who has provided info on this thread. Druckle, Magaro, Alien Traveler and everyone else that I can't remember their names (Sorry!), me and I'm sure many others as has been stated before really appreciate all the information and help you've brought to this thread. I've been following the thread since it started and keep coming back hoping for more information. You all have done more than just mentioning things but I feel you all did well at explaining things to us laymen. We need more people like you who can challenge these studies, since we all know challenging and testing things is how we can verify that these studies or our scientific knowledge is up to par. Thanks again.