The end of microcoils?

[druckle]

Probably not, but most NETs sure can gunk a coil quickly, and I'm guessing they start out with more different organic compounds than most e-liquids. Just seems the potential exists for a lot of interesting high temperature organic chemistry to occur.

I was obviously kidding but I think Dr. F has suggested that organics in e liquids might be a problem because they can come with lots of other things that are uncontrolled while "manufactured" additions are potentially a lot more pure.

I don't expect that there's a big likelihood that Nightshade is in the organic stuff but I tend to think his idea is a good one.

Duane

 

[Magaro]

I was obviously kidding but I think Dr. F has suggested that organics in e liquids might be a problem because they can come with lots of other things that are uncontrolled while "manufactured" additions are potentially a lot more pure.

I don't expect that there's a big likelihood that Nightshade is in the organic stuff but I tend to think his idea is a good one.

Duane

This issue is one where I respect Dr. F's opinion. Testing could be a huge burden for artisanal e-liquid suppliers, but a single detailed study could go a long way to increasing understanding.

Having said that, there are a lot of ""manufactured" additions" that I wouldn't want in my e-liquid. It's not obvious to me that they are necessarily safer than organically-grown additions.

Oh well, back to dry burn & wick so I can make some more primordial soup.

Vape safe, folks.

 

[druckle]

This issue is one where I respect Dr. F's opinion. Testing could be a huge burden for artisanal e-liquid suppliers, but a single detailed study could go a long way to increasing understanding.

Having said that, there are a lot of ""manufactured" additions" that I wouldn't want in my e-liquid. It's not obvious to me that they are necessarily safer than organically-grown additions.

Oh well, back to dry burn & wick so I can make some more primordial soup.

Vape safe, folks.

Yeah, I think more about what might be in the e liquid than anything else in vaping. I'm not totally comfortable about regs which list what's acceptable....but I think a list of what's NOT acceptable is a good thing (if that list is created by intelligent life). Seems to me we're worrying a ton about metals and oxides and sucking in "flavors" without even thinking much about what they are. Boy, this topic is a dangerous one. Imagine how much argument a discussion of that could create.

 

[Magaro]

Yeah, I think more about what might be in the e liquid than anything else in vaping. I'm not totally comfortable about regs which list what's acceptable....but I think a list of what's NOT acceptable is a good thing (if that list is created by intelligent life). Seems to me we're worrying a ton about metals and oxides and sucking in "flavors" without even thinking much about what they are. Boy, this topic is a dangerous one. Imagine how much argument a discussion of that could create.

I'm pretty much convinced that, at least for my vaping equipment and style, it's pretty much ALL about the liquids. Undoubtedly there are some additions that should not be allowed, or at least there should be mandatory warnings that they are present, and what risk they present.

Yeah, firing up a discussion about this could prove to be somewhat volatile, but if everyone can behave like an adult (I'll try, I swear), we should be fine. Besides, on this subject I have zero relevant expertise (one of many subjects for which this is true), and simply wish to ask questions and be educated. And maybe rant a little bit about the gov, and big tobacco, and big pharma, and...

If someone wants to start a fresh thread, I'm all in. Or we can just stay in our cozy little home here. After all, threads evolve. And that's a good thing.

 

[druckle]

I'm pretty much convinced that, at least for my vaping equipment and style, it's pretty much ALL about the liquids. Undoubtedly there are some additions that should not be allowed, or at least there should be mandatory warnings that they are present, and what risk they present.

Yeah, firing up a discussion about this could prove to be somewhat volatile, but if everyone can behave like an adult (I'll try, I swear), we should be fine. Besides, on this subject I have zero relevant expertise (one of many subjects for which this is true), and simply wish to ask questions and be educated. And maybe rant a little bit about the gov, and big tobacco, and big pharma, and...

If someone wants to start a fresh thread, I'm all in. Or we can just stay in our cozy little home here. After all, threads evolve. And that's a good thing.

Yes sir...I'm in too if someone starts that thread. The best part is I can revel in my ignorance and ask and watch and otherwise keep my trap shut. This BTW from a guy who started out to be a Chemical Engineer until he realized how much he HATED organic chemistry.

 

[Mad Scientist]

You know, in this whole thread no one has even once mentioned the caramlized ejuice gunk that quickly forms over the coils.. The whole reason people dry bun to clean in the first place. Does that layer provide further insulation, trapping the oxides, metals on the coils, making all of this moot? Or does it further corrode the coil and break it down releasing metals from the coil? Does this layer of gunk create aldehydes or anything else? I dunno it just seems we aren't looking at the whole picture here, and has doctor F considered all these factors and variables in his research?

You are asking good questions and without actually studying it empirically, no one can answer them for certain. I think the concerns you raise are very likely (or even almost certainly) not actually happening inside a properly functioning atomizer and I can give lots of reasons why, but the reality is, I cant "prove" that without conducting a well designed study. For now, I am comfortable that eJuice, even gunked eJuice, is not reactive with nickel oxide and will not leach nickel into the vape stream. Is there something I don't know or didn't consider -- could be, but the properties of nickel and its oxide are pretty well known and like I said, I'm ok with what I'm doing.

The revelation about aldehydes (and other byproducts of overheating ejuice) was really very useful and may be part of what pushed the efforts to mass market temp control devices.

Where Dr. F and I part ways is where he says "don't dry burn" because it's dangerous and it does some vague molecular magic that is bad. The guy may be a brilliant cardiologist, but this statement goes way beyond his medical expertise. To help him out and giving him all benefit of doubt, I'd change his statement to "don't dry burn because, even though it appears very unlikely, we don't know for certain if elemental metals or their oxides might result thereafter in the vape stream so until we do know for certain by actually paying for a study, it's safer not to dry burn."

After some consideration, I fully support his efforts to study everything because by doing so we will discover more about how to make vaping even safer and more enjoyable. Likely we will find something we don't know about vaping by studying all the trace materials in the vape stream. I don't support his approach of making definitive statements that do not appear to be supported by the science behind them and have not been shown to be true, especially if these statements can be twisted by regulators as another soldier in their parade of horribles about e-cigs. Dr. F seems to one of our very few real allies and I have a lot of respect for him, but that doesn't mean I agree with everything he says.

 

[orion7319]

Well everyone knows that diacetyl is found in some eliquids and that can cause popcorn lung. I think I read before that custard and cream flavoring are more likely to contain it. Some people can have a reaction to cinnamon called cinnamon contact stomatitis, plus it cracks plastic tanks. I just tend to avoid those tank cracking juices all together. I think the most potentially save flavored juice would most likely be 100% VG menthol. That's what all my years of lurking theads here have taught me anyway.

Edit: In reply to Magaro

 

[Alexander Mundy]

I asked that same question on another thread when I first started making coils. It didn't make sense to me that the current would run round the coil rather than straight across. The answer I got from someone who knew about this stuff was to do with the path of least resistance. The path of least resistance was along the length of the wire, which is a thick coherent mass of metal. By contrast the path from one loop to the next ran across a very narrow and irregular strip of contact between adjacent loops. At a microscopic level the adjacent loops are not even in continuous contact along that narrow strip. Small elevations on the surface of the metal would make contact with the next strip but between those elevated areas there would be a small separation between the two pieces of wire. So the resistance to the passage of current between adjacent loops would be far higher than the resistance along their length, and the current would take the easy path.

So the surface layer of Al oxide wouldn't be necessary to explain what happens. Though I guess it may play a role.

Oxide does indeed play a role and is necessary for a contact coil. 1 basic crux of this thread title is that without dry burning to tweak a contact coil (more specifically mentioned micro coils) into creating a thick enough layer of oxide to prevent metal contact they are not viable. Without the oxide coating hot spots are formed due to contact between adjacent loops. Take Nickle as an example. It has very low resistance compared to Kanthal so it has to have much lower voltage applied to the coil due to its lower resistance. This makes the voltage potential between coil loops much lower, however it oxidizes slowly so is difficult to use in a contact coil configuration and will shift resistance quite easily due to the metal contact as many NI200 temperature control users have discovered.

 

[ChuckB]

Well everyone knows that diacetyl is found in some eliquids and that can cause popcorn lung. I think I read before that custard and cream flavoring are more likely to contain it. Some people can have a reaction to cinnamon called cinnamon contact stomatitis, plus it cracks plastic tanks. I just tend to avoid those tank cracking juices all together. I think the most potentially save flavored juice would most likely be 100% VG menthol. That's what all my years of lurking theads here have taught me anyway.

My ADV should be fairly safe then, 50/50 PG/VG Menthol with a touch of Spearmint. And on the plus side, it doesn't gunk up coils very fast at all.

 

[orion7319]

You are asking good questions and without actually studying it empirically, no one can answer them for certain. I think the concerns you raise are very likely (or even almost certainly) not actually happening inside a properly functioning atomizer and I can give lots of reasons why, but the reality is, I cant "prove" that without conducting a well designed study. For now, I am comfortable that eJuice, even gunked eJuice, is not reactive with nickel oxide and will not leach nickel into the vape stream. Is there something I don't know or didn't consider -- could be, but the properties of nickel and its oxide are pretty well known and like I said, I'm ok with what I'm doing.

The revelation about aldehydes (and other byproducts of overheating ejuice) was really very useful and may be part of what pushed the efforts to mass market temp control devices.

Where Dr. F and I part ways is where he says "don't dry burn" because it's dangerous and it does some vague molecular magic that is bad. The guy may be a brilliant cardiologist, but this statement goes way beyond his medical expertise. To help him out and giving him all benefit of doubt, I'd change his statement to "don't dry burn because, even though it appears very unlikely, we don't know for certain if elemental metals or their oxides might result thereafter in the vape stream so until we do know for certain by actually paying for a study, it's safer not to dry burn."

After some consideration, I fully support his efforts to study everything because by doing so we will discover more about how to make vaping even safer and more enjoyable. Likely we will find something we don't know about vaping by studying all the trace materials in the vape stream. I don't support his approach of making definitive statements that do not appear to be supported by the science behind them and have not been shown to be true, especially if these statements can be twisted by regulators as another soldier in their parade of horribles about e-cigs. Dr. F seems to one of our very few real allies and I have a lot of respect for him, but that doesn't mean I agree with everything he says.

Well, like what has been stated before, are we dealing with simply carbon or does the juice break down into something else? And no, we can't know without studies. Also I thought I read somewhere that it was the PG breaking down into aldehydes, not VG.. I could be remembering what I read incorrectly though, and I can't remember the source. Personally I'm no longer looking at this from the perspective of "it's not as bad a smoking" its way to different to expect the same issues you would get from smoking, but who knows. I have heard of a lot of weird things that could be potential risks. I firmly believe that further well funded peer review study's should be conducted. I also wonder about the sweeteners in the juices as well, and how does your body metabolize them when inhaled? Lots of things to consider, nothing I feel we should be overtly alammed about at this point, but there are so many things that need to be studied. I also agree that Dr Fs original statement that started this whole thread did seem rather alarmist but I can also respect his suggestion to heed caution in the matter. Personally I feel that sub ohming, has more potential risks than dry burning your coil, but that's mainly because your consuming a lot more juice than you are by not doing it.

 

[orion7319]

My ADV should be fairly safe then, 50/50 PG/VG Menthol with a touch of Spearmint. And on the plus side, it doesn't gunk up coils very fast at all.

Yeah we would suspect. We vape the exact same thing BTW The only thing I would change is more VG less PG, but I get my stuff locally now a days for the convenience and that's pretty much all they sell.

 

[Mad Scientist]

Well, like what has been stated before, are we dealing with simply carbon or does the juice break down into something else? And no, we can't know without studies. Also I thought I read somewhere that it was the PG breaking down into aldehydes, not VG.. I could be remembering what I read incorrectly though, and I can't remember the source. Personally I'm no longer looking at this from the perspective of "it's not as bad a smoking" its way to different to expect the same issues you would get from smoking, but who knows. I have heard of a lot of weird things that could be potential risks. I firmly believe that further well funded peer review study's should be conducted. I also wonder about the sweeteners in the juices as well, and how does your body metabolize them when inhaled? Lots of things to consider, nothing I feel we should be overtly alammed about at this point, but there are so many things that need to be studied. I also agree that Dr Fs original statement that started this whole thread did seem rather alarmist but I can also respect his suggestion to heed caution in the matter. Personally I feel that sub ohming, has more potential risks than dry burning your coil, but that's mainly because your consuming a lot more juice than you are by not doing it.

You remember the aldehyde issue correctly but VG also produces "bad" stuff when overheated like acrolein. No free lunch lol.

As I said before you are thinking along the right lines and your mention of "risks" brings up another important issue of what is a "risk" and what is "safe." Drinking water, for example, contains lots of harmful and carcinogenic materials along with plenty of pharmaceuticals people dump in the toilet to be recycled into clean water, but the "experts" tell us the "risk" is minimal and keep making your morning coffee as you usually do. The reality is we have the technology to make drinking water "safer" but it costs a fortune and people who are supposed to know have made the policy decision that what we are getting is good enough. The vaping gear we have now is what we have, and I'd guess you and me and everyone else who vapes is ok with the harm reduction concept and our belief that e-cigs cause less harm than real cigs. Vaping will improve in part because folks like you (and me) want to know more about what's in them and why. My prediction is that the method of generating vapor by heating will one day go the way of the buggy whip and we will develop practical ways of creating a similar experience for an all day device through pressure aerosol or ultrasonic (both been done but not really practical right now). The risks we face today are what they are but in the quest to always reduce those risks, different stuff will always be on the horizon.

 

[orion7319]

You remember the aldehyde issue correctly but VG also produces "bad" stuff when overheated like acrolein. No free lunch lol.

As I said before you are thinking along the right lines and your mention of "risks" brings up another important issue of what is a "risk" and what is "safe." Drinking water, for example, contains lots of harmful and carcinogenic materials along with plenty of pharmaceuticals people dump in the toilet to be recycled into clean water, but the "experts" tell us the "risk" is minimal and keep making your morning coffee as you usually do. The reality is we have the technology to make drinking water "safer" but it costs a fortune and people who are supposed to know have made the policy decision that what we are getting is good enough. The vaping gear we have now is what we have, and I'd guess you and me and everyone else who vapes is ok with the harm reduction concept and our belief that e-cigs cause less harm than real cigs. Vaping will improve in part because folks like you (and me) want to know more about what's in them and why. My prediction is that the method of generating vapor by heating will one day go the way of the buggy whip and we will develop practical ways of creating a similar experience for an all day device through pressure aerosol or ultrasonic (both been done but not really practical right now). The risks we face today are what they are but in the quest to always reduce those risks, different stuff will always be on the horizon.

Acroline, doh! I didn't know that, thanks for the info! You are correct, I am perfectly fine with harm reduction. Being a formal three pack a day chain smoker, this has got to be wayyyy better for me. I know I can't quit nicotine, as I have tried many times before. There was a study done a few years ago which found that with some people there brains really can't go without. Basically they don't have much hope of quitting. Some people can quit cold turkey, with me the pain and discomfort of withdrawal is such that it renders me complely dysfunctional. So I don't really have a choice but to accept "harm reduction". If more is known to make vaping safer, then of course I would do it if I'm able. One thing I also realize is that if more were known about the affects of vaping, the stigmas assciated with it would be much less.. At least I would hope so anyway. As it is I am more worried about drug resistant super bugs than what vaping does to people. The risks that poses to modern medicine is absolutely terrifying.
Your thoughts on the future of ecigs is interesting I'm just looking forward to where we can take wicks out of the equation.

 

[druckle]

Acroline, doh! I didn't know that, thanks for the info! You are correct, I am perfectly fine with harm reduction. Being a formal three pack a day chain smoker, this has got to be wayyyy better for me. I know I can't quit nicotine, as I have tried many times before. There was a study done a few years ago which found that with some people there brains really can't go without. Basically they don't have much hope of quitting. Some people can quit cold turkey, with me the pain and discomfort of withdrawal is such that it renders me complely dysfunctional. So I don't really have a choice but to accept "harm reduction". If more is known to make vaping safer, then of course I would do it if I'm able. One thing I also realize is that if more were known about the affects of vaping, the stigmas assciated with it would be much less.. At least I would hope so anyway. As it is I am more worried about drug resistant super bugs than what vaping does to people. The risks that poses to modern medicine is absolutely terrifying.
Tell me about drug resistant super bugs.....
I trimmed a nasty mesquite tree a few weeks ago. Those things have THORNS.
I got a little scratch on my arm.
The scratch got sore. A red spot kept getting bigger....IT GOT WAY BIG....
I went to the doctor and he gave me some antibiotic....that was friday.
By saturday morning my whole arm was getting red...went to the local off hours med center for my insurance and they gave me another antibiotic.
By Saturday evening it was sufficiently bad that I decided I might as well die in the hospital as at home so I went to the Emergency Room.
They said MERSA (that's one of those drug resistant things) and gave me another antibiotic sent me home but called every hour through the day and through the night .--no sleep but it began to get better. Two weeks after that the skin was still peeling off my arm but I'm convinced I will live a while longer. Drug resistant bugs are BAD news.

Duane

 

[awsum140]

Orion, from what I have read nicotine by and of itself, is not addictive. The additional chemicals used in cigarettes to "enhance" them can cause addiction due to the enhanced reaction of the brain to nicotine those chemical cause. A quick Google search will show all kinds of research on nicotine addiction, but every one of them involves cigarettes, not nicotine as a separate, discreet, focus of the research. I have also read, and not seen, that nicotine has been researched for its medicinal properties and yes it does have medicinal properties and more than cannabis. No ethical peer review panel would even allow research on human subjects if nicotine was, indeed, as addictive as we are lead to believe. I was convinced I was addicted to nicotine but over the time I have been vaping have managed to reduce my nicotine down to 5mg and expect, eventually, to go to no nicotine in my liquids.

Keep in mind I am not a physician, pharmacologist, research scientist and hold no degrees in any recognized field of study. I have never played a doctor on TV and it's been years since I stayed in a Holiday Inn.

 

[druckle]

Acroline, doh! I didn't know that, thanks for the info! You are correct, I am perfectly fine with harm reduction. Being a formal three pack a day chain smoker, this has got to be wayyyy better for me. I know I can't quit nicotine, as I have tried many times before. There was a study done a few years ago which found that with some people there brains really can't go without. Basically they don't have much hope of quitting. Some people can quit cold turkey, with me the pain and discomfort of withdrawal is such that it renders me complely dysfunctional. So I don't really have a choice but to accept "harm reduction". If more is known to make vaping safer, then of course I would do it if I'm able. One thing I also realize is that if more were known about the affects of vaping, the stigmas assciated with it would be much less.. At least I would hope so anyway. As it is I am more worried about drug resistant super bugs than what vaping does to people. The risks that poses to modern medicine is absolutely terrifying.

Tell me about drug resistant super bugs.....
I trimmed a nasty mesquite tree a few weeks ago. Those things have THORNS.
I got a little scratch on my arm.
The scratch got sore. A red spot kept getting bigger....IT GOT WAY BIG....
I went to the doctor and he gave me some antibiotic....that was friday.
By saturday morning my whole arm was getting red...went to the local off hours med center for my insurance and they gave me another antibiotic.
By Saturday evening it was sufficiently bad that I decided I might as well die in the hospital as at home so I went to the Emergency Room.
They said MERSA (that's one of those drug resistant things) and gave me another antibiotic sent me home but called every hour through the day and through the night .--no sleep but it began to get better. Two weeks after that the skin was still peeling off my arm but I'm convinced I will live a while longer. Drug resistant bugs are BAD news.

Duane

 

[HolmanGT]

Orion, from what I have read nicotine by and of itself, is not addictive. The additional chemicals used in cigarettes to "enhance" them can cause addiction due to the enhanced reaction of the brain to nicotine those chemical cause. A quick Google search will show all kinds of research on nicotine addiction, but every one of them involves cigarettes, not nicotine as a separate, discreet, focus of the research. I have also read, and not seen, that nicotine has been researched for its medicinal properties and yes it does have medicinal properties and more than ********. No ethical peer review panel would even allow research on human subjects if nicotine was, indeed, as addictive as we are lead to believe. I was convinced I was addicted to nicotine but over the time I have been vaping have managed to reduce my nicotine down to 5mg and expect, eventually, to go to no nicotine in my liquids.

Keep in mind I am not a physician, pharmacologist, research scientist and hold no degrees in any recognized field of study. I have never played a doctor on TV and it's been years since I stayed in a Holiday Inn.

awsum,

I am tired of researching some of this stuff but I am very inclined to agree with you on everything in your post. Which by the way is one of the reasons I have stayed away from WTA e-juice.

I also read and hear a TV show or two that talked about the medical benefits of "Nicotine" and that if you tried to avoid nicotine you would have to give up eating tomatoes, potatoes and several other vegetables. (don't quote me on the exact vegetables I am running off memory here and I am 70 years old ) Oh and some of the medical benefits were not just "ailment cure" type benefits but things like concentration and anti stress benefit.

 

[tchavei]

Yeah we would suspect. We vape the exact same thing BTW The only thing I would change is more VG less PG, but I get my stuff locally now a days for the convenience and that's pretty much all they sell.

My ADV should be fairly safe then, 50/50 PG/VG Menthol with a touch of Spearmint. And on the plus side, it doesn't gunk up coils very fast at all.

Same here. 70%VG strait menthol crystals. I don't even add spearmint as I don't like the minty herbal taste.
I dug through half the Internet looking for long time exposure to menthol but I could only find two, one about a guy eating 200gr or so of Mentol candy daily for 30 years that had some skin sores.

Of all flavorings, menthol has to be the safest... Unless you're a female afro American. There was a study about menthol cigarettes and there was a slight increase in brain stroke in that segment. Can't be 100% sure, I read that study like five years ago.

Anyway, the safest would be not vaping but I'm a addict. Recently I had to make a choice between caffeine, nicotine and loosing weight. I decided to drop weight and caffeine.

Regards
Tony

Sent from my keyboard through my phone or something like that.

 

[Mactavish]

Orion, from what I have read nicotine by and of itself, is not addictive. The additional chemicals used in cigarettes to "enhance" them can cause addiction due to the enhanced reaction of the brain to nicotine those chemical cause. A quick Google search will show all kinds of research on nicotine addiction, but every one of them involves cigarettes, not nicotine as a separate, discreet, focus of the research. I have also read, and not seen, that nicotine has been researched for its medicinal properties and yes it does have medicinal properties and more than ********. No ethical peer review panel would even allow research on human subjects if nicotine was, indeed, as addictive as we are lead to believe. I was convinced I was addicted to nicotine but over the time I have been vaping have managed to reduce my nicotine down to 5mg and expect, eventually, to go to no nicotine in my liquids.

Keep in mind I am not a physician, pharmacologist, research scientist and hold no degrees in any recognized field of study. I have never played a doctor on TV and it's been years since I stayed in a Holiday Inn.

I have researched and read the same as you. Nicotine, in and of itself does NOT appear to be addictive. I've heard the term "freebase nicotine", used to describe the chemical formula used in tobacco cigarettes, which as most of us know is highly addictive, thus a perfect drug the scientists of that day were hired to create. This topic alone and the online, published anti-vaping propaganda, shows the long battle ahead for us.

 

[Mactavish]

Tell me about drug resistant super bugs.....
I trimmed a nasty mesquite tree a few weeks ago. Those things have THORNS.
I got a little scratch on my arm.
The scratch got sore. A red spot kept getting bigger....IT GOT WAY BIG....
I went to the doctor and he gave me some antibiotic....that was friday.
By saturday morning my whole arm was getting red...went to the local off hours med center for my insurance and they gave me another antibiotic.
By Saturday evening it was sufficiently bad that I decided I might as well die in the hospital as at home so I went to the Emergency Room.
They said MERSA (that's one of those drug resistant things) and gave me another antibiotic sent me home but called every hour through the day and through the night .--no sleep but it began to get better. Two weeks after that the skin was still peeling off my arm but I'm convinced I will live a while longer. Drug resistant bugs are BAD news.

Duane

My friend got MERSA, it's a KILLER! Glad you survived it.