The Flavor Apprentice Flavoring Thread

[Aurora-Oblivion]

@BIll's Magic Vapor

First of all, thanks again from the entire community for sharing all your wisdom with us, regulars and lurkers alike will be forever grateful. I mixed up a batch of your Strawberry Stardust and Twinkies last night, and I have a few questions if you don't mind.

My questions:

1. Strawberry Stardust - Does this need to steep at least a few days, or preferably longer in your opinion? I ask because if not, then I need your advice on which flavor should be adjusted for my taste-buds. I get a almost plastic floral note, and was assuming maybe the strawberry needs to steep a little, or the Sweet & Tart needs to be lowered for me next time around. I think that sweet & tart may be a large part of the offense, smells like it based on taste I'm disliking and the flavoring itself, but I also have not used the strawberry this high before either, so unsure if one or the other or a combination of both perhaps, or it just needs to steep.

2. Twinkies - I made your higher % recipe. What's your average steep time for this? Or are you a non-steeper, I can't remember? I know from using cupcake in the past that it usually needed to steep at least 2 weeks before I taste any cake from it if I remember right, but that was at a low percentage like 5%. Not really getting any cake from this now, taste kind of plastic-like (All flavorings stored in glass), which leads me to ask you about steeping since it's your creation and these are the first time I've made any of your HFM's.

Thanks!

 

[Bill's Magic Vapor]

@BIll's Magic Vapor

First of all, thanks again from the entire community for sharing all your wisdom with us, regulars and lurkers alike will be forever grateful. I mixed up a batch of your Strawberry Stardust and Twinkies last night, and I have a few questions if you don't mind.

My questions:

1. Strawberry Stardust - Does this need to steep at least a few days, or preferably longer in your opinion? I ask because if not, then I need your advice on which flavor should be adjusted for my taste-buds. I get a almost plastic floral note, and was assuming maybe the strawberry needs to steep a little, or the Sweet & Tart needs to be lowered for me next time around. I think that sweet & tart may be a large part of the offense, smells like it based on taste I'm disliking and the flavoring itself, but I also have not used the strawberry this high before either, so unsure if one or the other or a combination of both perhaps, or it just needs to steep.

2. Twinkies - I made your higher % recipe. What's your average steep time for this? Or are you a non-steeper, I can't remember? I know from using cupcake in the past that it usually needed to steep at least 2 weeks before I taste any cake from it if I remember right, but that was at a low percentage like 5%. Not really getting any cake from this now, taste kind of plastic-like (All flavorings stored in glass), which leads me to ask you about steeping since it's your creation and these are the first time I've made any of your HFM's.

Thanks!

Thank you for your questions!

I make my juices to suit not only my tastes, but also my gear, and the way I vape, so they will always vary with every other user. DIY can be tricky to make adjustments, but I may be able to suggest some changes for you. As these recipes are, they taste great to me within two hours after mixing and come into their own about 24 hours later. But that's for me, my family, friends, and a large marketplace.

Strawberry is always tricky because some think it's fine in mixes, others cannot ever make TFA strawberry work. I mean NEVER! You can substitute other brands for the strawberry, and may find that does the trick. The sweet and tart is strong and can be lowered by .5% to 1% to suit your tastes, but make changes one at a time and check for taste before making multiple changes all at once. These mixes should be good to you ATM, or you may have to adjust the mix. That's how I make them....to be good at the time of mix.

By the way, try that recipe with different fruits too. If the strawberry is the culprit, it also works well with grape, apple, watermelon, etc. Could be the strawberry. I like the TFA myself, but a lot of members loathe it!

Twinkies taste identical to twinkies immediately after mixing, again better two hours later, and come into full flavor within 24 hours. This is the difference between HFM and LFM and long steep times. The advantage is that you can use 100DT taste test method to change the flavorings and adjust on the fly, so to speak....no wait time is required. If everything you make takes two weeks to taste right, it's because there's not enough flavoring, not a miracle of steeping. The cupcake is TFA cake mix flavor and I like it. You can also try FW Yellow Cake and get a similar result, and some people like it better.

Another thing, I vape around 12 watts. If you vape at 30 watts, you're going to damage the delicate flavorings of these mixes and they won't taste they way they were intended. Other factors include wicking materials, air flow, wattage, etc. Often times lowering the heat (wattage), can solve a variety of flavor problems.

For me, I keep doing 100DT's, often three to eight times in a row until it tastes right to me, and then I'm done. Yes, it will improve with a bit of time, but I stop when it's good to me immediately after mixing. So, carefully adjust the flavorings one at a time until you get to your happy place. Since all taste is subjective, and altered by gear and vaping strategy, only through adjustments can we really make any juice "perfect" for us. Keep trying, because the starting recipes are very good to me, and may only require a little adjustment, here and there, to work for you! Good luck!

 

[Aurora-Oblivion]

Thanks for your detailed answers Bill!

Family, friends, and a large marketplace all liking them as you noted means to me that I first need to just wait a little bit longer before making any adjustments. I tasted right at mixing time, and then only about 12 hours later, so it's still very early.

I have used the regular strawberry by itself and mixed with no issues before, between 5-8% after looking at some recipes I have saved. Although I do prefer the ripe over regular, I have no problems with regular and thought it would better suit the starbursts too. Once I get this tasting good I did plan to try the ripe next

I'll go ahead and start by adjusting the sweet and tart before anything else then, but I'll wait a day or three before I do anything.

I have FW yellow cake, and it's OK, but I don't like it's taste as it changes over time. I enjoy TFA's cupcake a lot, but have only used it at 5-6% usually in the past, and then waited a few weeks before the cake really developed nicely. I don't get any of that at high percent of 14% right at time of mixing, maybe just for my taste-buds and this flavor it needs to steep a while no matter if it's high or low percentage used?

If everything you make takes two weeks to taste right, it's because there's not enough flavoring, not a miracle of steeping

To me that is a conflict, if not enough flavoring doesn't taste right but you know it will after steeping, then mixing higher amount to equal that steeped aspect right at time of mixing is going to drastically taste different after a steep of the high flavoring mix too, to me would be drastically over-flavored after that steep time/flavor change that you know will happen. I don't see it as a miracle, I just know it as flavor change and development and I know it happens with some flavors, but not all, and some much more drastically than others after certain time-frames. I know we all have our beliefs on this, so not arguing with anyone, just voicing my thoughts on your mention of miracle steeping

I vape using eGo style batteries with drippers and BCC tanks using cotton w/ coils at right around 1.7 ohms , voltage as you know would be 3.3-3.7 depending on the battery. So I don't think that's too hot or damaging any of these flavors, I know them all well except for Sweet and Tart, and they all taste good to me on this equipment using them stand alone at different/lower percentages. I do know what you mean regarding all of that, but don't think this is any of the issue.

Thanks for your thoughts! I guess I'll give these another day or two before deciding which if any adjustments are needed. I'm a firm believer in flavors changing as they age no matter the percentages, especially certain ones that I know change from past experiences, so I'm guessing that for me I need to age these a little while before I know for certain they aren't perfect for my tastes (especially the Twinkies)

Thanks again!

 

[Bill's Magic Vapor]

Thanks for your detailed answers Bill!

Family, friends, and a large marketplace all liking them as you noted means to me that I first need to just wait a little bit longer before making any adjustments. I tasted right at mixing time, and then only about 12 hours later, so it's still very early.

I have used the regular strawberry by itself and mixed with no issues before, between 5-8% after looking at some recipes I have saved. Although I do prefer the ripe over regular, I have no problems with regular and thought it would better suit the starbursts too. Once I get this tasting good I did plan to try the ripe next

I'll go ahead and start by adjusting the sweet and tart before anything else then, but I'll wait a day or three before I do anything.

I have FW yellow cake, and it's OK, but I don't like it's taste as it changes over time. I enjoy TFA's cupcake a lot, but have only used it at 5-6% usually in the past, and then waited a few weeks before the cake really developed nicely. I don't get any of that at high percent of 14% right at time of mixing, maybe just for my taste-buds and this flavor it needs to steep a while no matter if it's high or low percentage used?



To me that is a conflict, if not enough flavoring doesn't taste right but you know it will after steeping, then mixing higher amount to equal that steeped aspect right at time of mixing is going to drastically taste different after a steep of the high flavoring mix too, to me would be drastically over-flavored after that steep time/flavor change that you know will happen. I don't see it as a miracle, I just know it as flavor change and development and I know it happens with some flavors, but not all, and some much more drastically than others after certain time-frames. I know we all have our beliefs on this, so not arguing with anyone, just voicing my thoughts on your mention of miracle steeping

I vape using eGo style batteries with drippers and BCC tanks using cotton w/ coils at right around 1.7 ohms , voltage as you know would be 3.3-3.7 depending on the battery. So I don't think that's too hot or damaging any of these flavors, I know them all well except for Sweet and Tart, and they all taste good to me on this equipment using them stand alone at different/lower percentages. I do know what you mean regarding all of that, but don't think this is any of the issue.

Thanks for your thoughts! I guess I'll give these another day or two before deciding which if any adjustments are needed. I'm a firm believer in flavors changing as they age no matter the percentages, especially certain ones that I know change from past experiences, so I'm guessing that for me I need to age these a little while before I know for certain they aren't perfect for my tastes (especially the Twinkies)

Thanks again!

Put a couple drops of citric acid in the mix. Steeping will NOT change the flavor. These are old myths of juice making. It is absolutely possible to make great juice immediately and not have flavor changes if you know how. It's how most of the commercial juice makers do it, not all, of course. There's a lot more misinformation about juice making, than accurate information out there. Good luck to you.

 

[Aurora-Oblivion]

I agree, citric acid would arrest the flavor changing. Why would you need do that if you feel flavor changing is a myth? Flavors do change, I've made juice for a few years and create many mixes weekly, not trying to say I'm an expert or anything, only letting you know I've been mixing for a while. Flavors change and develop or weaken over time (your lemon for ex.), anyone that mixes juice knows that, hence you mention of stopping those changes with citric acid.

I do know what you mean, steeping is not an absolute requirement to have a good juice right away, but you know flavors do change, meaning a good juice right away with flavors that you know change after a few weeks may be really bad or over-flavored after a few weeks (again I mean some flavors, not all), unless you used citric acid as you just mentioned.

On the cupcake, if 5-6% tastes great to me at two weeks, then 14% doesn't right away, I can't see higher or lower being any better either. To me, this is one of the flavors that would need to develop before the "cake" aspect is present. Sure, maybe 20% I'd get it along with other odd notes, really doubt that though, but if true and I made a juice like that then it would be badly over-flavored after a few weeks for sure. And yes, I do get you on the citric, I could stop it there if the 20% got me what I wanted, but to me that's a waste of flavor and inhaling more chemicals than necessary Vs. waiting a week or two. I'm in no hurry, and I don't like to use a huge amount of flavor if it's not necessary.

We all mix differently, and I only wondered your opinions on your juice after it's aged a while. It didn't come to mind you may be stopping flavor changes via citric acid since you didn't mention it in your recipes. I have no problem waiting a little while for the flavors to change, I don't need it perfect right now. I was mainly asking for your thoughts on steeping those recipes in particular, which I forgot and you gave (you are not a steeping person ). I know you probably don't want to know, but I'll update with what I've arrived at in a week or two, others that don't mind waiting a little while vs using a lot of flavoring might be interested.

Thanks again!

BTW, the more I vape that Starburst, I do think it's the Sweet & Tart giving an off taste to me. I'll probably have to drop that to 1.5% or 1%, I think that should help

 

[Bill's Magic Vapor]

I agree, citric acid would arrest the flavor changing. Why would you need do that if you feel flavor changing is a myth? Flavors do change, I've made juice for a few years and create many mixes weekly, not trying to say I'm an expert or anything, only letting you know I've been mixing for a while. Flavors change and develop or weaken over time (your lemon for ex.), anyone that mixes juice knows that, hence you mention of stopping those changes with citric acid.

I do know what you mean, steeping is not an absolute requirement to have a good juice right away, but you know flavors do change, meaning a good juice right away with flavors that you know change after a few weeks may be really bad or over-flavored after a few weeks (again I mean some flavors, not all), unless you used citric acid as you just mentioned.

On the cupcake, if 5-6% tastes great to me at two weeks, then 14% doesn't right away, I can't see higher or lower being any better either. To me, this is one of the flavors that would need to develop before the "cake" aspect is present. Sure, maybe 20% I'd get it along with other odd notes, really doubt that though, but if true and I made a juice like that then it would be badly over-flavored after a few weeks for sure. And yes, I do get you on the citric, I could stop it there if the 20% got me what I wanted, but to me that's a waste of flavor and inhaling more chemicals than necessary Vs. waiting a week or two. I'm in no hurry, and I don't like to use a huge amount of flavor if it's not necessary.

We all mix differently, and I only wondered your opinions on your juice after it's aged a while. It didn't come to mind you may be stopping flavor changes via citric acid since you didn't mention it in your recipes. I have no problem waiting a little while for the flavors to change, I don't need it perfect right now. I was mainly asking for your thoughts on steeping those recipes in particular, which I forgot and you gave (you are not a steeping person ). I know you probably don't want to know, but I'll update with what I've arrived at in a week or two, others that don't mind waiting a little while vs using a lot of flavoring might be interested.

Thanks again!

BTW, the more I vape that Starburst, I do think it's the Sweet & Tart giving an off taste to me. I'll probably have to drop that to 1.5% or 1%, I think that should help

No, the myth is that juice that requires steep times, or long steep times to fully develop. The flavor can be mixed with precision to a precise flavoring one may desire and then at about 95% arrested where no further changes occur, i.e., citric acid among others. The other myth is that waiting a week or two MAY improve flavoring and is best practices. For me, and me alone, 99% of the time, waiting never made bad juice good, or good juice great. Juice is either great at mix and improves with time, or one should remix. Some of the largest juice makers in the U.S. explained this to me a couple of years ago, and I have independently verified it. In my opinion, and mine alone, YMMV, if juice is not really great ATM, it's never going to be. Perhaps 1% of the time, the exception becomes the rule, but it's rare in my experience. The problem is that we're flying completely blind hoping time will cure a bad mix, instead of mixing to taste and locking in flavor (citric acid). I know there are many that disagree and prefer the long steep method, but I wasted half a year failing one mix after another, and developed my 100DT method to make juice I could vape RIGHT NOW! In mixing, it was either GREAT ATM, and perhaps slightly improved over 24 hours, or I kept mixing until it was. This is just one man's opinion, and is not universally shared.

It kind of makes me nuts, though, when I hear people on this thread talk about waiting a few weeks to see how something turns out, when I know 75% - 99% of the time, that's not going to happen. It makes it very difficult for new juice makers to ever learn how to make great juice, so I ascribe to another way of explaining DIY that does work for new members. I have plenty of recipes that do require long steep times. However, I can duplicate them with HFM's and have the same juice ready to vape in two hours. There are exceptions to this, most notably tobacco. The reason I cringe, and push back is that I almost quit DIY because I couldn't make a single decent juice for six months trying the long steep method. Had I not had a substantial investment, I most certainly would have quit. When I discovered HFM and 100DT and targeting ATM mixes, my juice took off. Within a year and a half, I had 150 juices, 40 commercial, viable and used today. So, I'm all about the new DIY'er not going back and forth with experienced juice makers. I fully recognize that long steep mixing can make some amazing juices, it's just too slow for me, but just as viable. So, my point is that there's more than one way to do this, and there are dozens of threads on dozens of sites devoted to LFM and steeping. I just want to have one thread, this one, also celebrate the alternative and equally viable HFM method.

Thank you for your questions and allowing me to share this information again on this thread. For the new maker that may be reading these posts for the first time, have heart, you can be vaping something great today, if you like. There are many ways to do this DIY thing! Good luck to you, my friend!

 

[jimstratus]

Not to derail Aurora's derailment of this thread but, Bill, what dilution for the citric acid. I know it's been discussed several times in the past but ECF search engine lacks to say the least or possibly user error. I seem to remember 1\4 teaspoon per 9ml of pg. Would you confirm or correct please sir?

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2

 

[facedown]

OK guys, back to recipes! Here's an easy one that is surprisingly good.

Key Lime Ale
key lime 9%
ginger ale 8%
sweet 4%
em 2%

All TFA, 30/70 pg/vg, 2 nic. And as a bonus it is wattage insensitive. Low watts in a tank to high watts on a dripper, it's fine.

Adjust to taste, as always. Enjoy!

 

[albe]

does anyone know how many drops is 67 or 70 by grams? im using bills droppers from amazon.

Thanks

 

[Bill's Magic Vapor]

Not to derail Aurora's derailment of this thread but, Bill, what dilution for the citric acid. I know it's been discussed several times in the past but ECF search engine lacks to say the least or possibly user error. I seem to remember 1\4 teaspoon per 9ml of pg. Would you confirm or correct please sir?

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2

I use a 10% solution in PG by weight and use a scale to measure ingredients. Since citric acid is used by drops usually, it's pretty straight forward and I didn't worry too much about percentages. If you can taste the citric acid, you're using too much. It should have no affect on taste. Good luck!

 

[Partspro]

No, the myth is that juice that requires steep times, or long steep times to fully develop. The flavor can be mixed with precision to a precise flavoring one may desire and then at about 95% arrested where no further changes occur, i.e., citric acid among others. The other myth is that waiting a week or two MAY improve flavoring and is best practices. For me, and me alone, 99% of the time, waiting never made bad juice good, or good juice great. Juice is either great at mix and improves with time, or one should remix. Some of the largest juice makers in the U.S. explained this to me a couple of years ago, and I have independently verified it. In my opinion, and mine alone, YMMV, if juice is not really great ATM, it's never going to be. Perhaps 1% of the time, the exception becomes the rule, but it's rare in my experience. The problem is that we're flying completely blind hoping time will cure a bad mix, instead of mixing to taste and locking in flavor (citric acid). I know there are many that disagree and prefer the long steep method, but I wasted half a year failing one mix after another, and developed my 100DT method to make juice I could vape RIGHT NOW! In mixing, it was either GREAT ATM, and perhaps slightly improved over 24 hours, or I kept mixing until it was. This is just one man's opinion, and is not universally shared.

It kind of makes me nuts, though, when I hear people on this thread talk about waiting a few weeks to see how something turns out, when I know 75% - 99% of the time, that's not going to happen. It makes it very difficult for new juice makers to ever learn how to make great juice, so I ascribe to another way of explaining DIY that does work for new members. I have plenty of recipes that do require long steep times. However, I can duplicate them with HFM's and have the same juice ready to vape in two hours. There are exceptions to this, most notably tobacco. The reason I cringe, and push back is that I almost quit DIY because I couldn't make a single decent juice for six months trying the long steep method. Had I not had a substantial investment, I most certainly would have quit. When I discovered HFM and 100DT and targeting ATM mixes, my juice took off. Within a year and a half, I had 150 juices, 40 commercial, viable and used today. So, I'm all about the new DIY'er not going back and forth with experienced juice makers. I fully recognize that long steep mixing can make some amazing juices, it's just too slow for me, but just as viable. So, my point is that there's more than one way to do this, and there are dozens of threads on dozens of sites devoted to LFM and steeping. I just want to have one thread, this one, also celebrate the alternative and equally viable HFM method.

Thank you for your questions and allowing me to share this information again on this thread. For the new maker that may be reading these posts for the first time, have heart, you can be vaping something great today, if you like. There are many ways to do this DIY thing! Good luck to you, my friend!

Bill,

I am really new to mixing and I can't thank you enough for all the time you have and continue to put into helping us be successful with DIY.
I have read a lot of this and tried mixing a few of your recipes. Between your notes here and your blogs I am having some success. Again, thank you. I look forward to learning more.

 

[Alter]

does anyone know how many drops is 67 or 70 by grams? im using bills droppers from amazon.

Thanks

I got a regular dropper from the drug store and that dropper drops 25 drops per gram of 60/40 base mix.

 

[jimstratus]

I use a 10% solution in PG by weight and use a scale to measure ingredients. Since citric acid is used by drops usually, it's pretty straight forward and I didn't worry too much about percentages. If you can taste the citric acid, you're using too much. It should have no affect on taste. Good luck!

Thanks Bill

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2

 

[Kingsley1065]

Bill,

I am really new to mixing and I can't thank you enough for all the time you have and continue to put into helping us be successful with DIY.
I have read a lot of this and tried mixing a few of your recipes. Between your notes here and your blogs I am having some success. Again, thank you. I look forward to learning more.

DITTO! I have been lurking around over the past few weeks and have learned a lot. So far I have a few failures but did just make a pretty good pineapple cake! Lots of trial and error going on over here


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[ghola1was]

Howdy Bill, is the Egg Nog part of your Vanilla Custard recipe the same thing as https://shop.perfumersapprentice.com/p-7268-holiday-spice-flavor.aspx ? (Holiday Spice)

 

[FormulaBass]

So i'm still experimenting with the Black Honey Tobacco flavor and I think I found a winning combination (BHT + Toasted marsh) although I also added menthol (2%) to the recipe below and it didn't fit in very well. Koolada would probably work better but I don't have any at the moment.

Black Honey Tobacco 9%
Toasted Marshmallow 2%
Vanillin 1.5%
65/35 VG/PG

I let it sit in a hot water bath for about two hours as well.

Quick Question- How does everybody test their juices? Do you use a dripper with new cotton? What type of build do you use?

 

[ghola1was]

Oops, found Egg Nog in Bulk sizes.

Thanks for another great recipe, can't wait to try it!

 

[Bill's Magic Vapor]

Howdy Bill, is the Egg Nog part of your Vanilla Custard recipe the same thing as https://shop.perfumersapprentice.com/p-7268-holiday-spice-flavor.aspx ? (Holiday Spice)

My bottle says Egg Nog Flavor: https://shop.perfumersapprentice.com/p-7522-egg-nog-flavor.aspx

For some reason, when I searched for egg nog nothing came up. But, when I plugged in egg, it did come up. It may be a bulk order item, but I'm not sure. My bottle is 4 ounces, and it's vastly superior to Capella's egg nog which can kill any juice in a heartbeat in my opinion. Good luck!

 

[Bill's Magic Vapor]

So i'm still experimenting with the Black Honey Tobacco flavor and I think I found a winning combination (BHT + Toasted marsh) although I also added menthol (2%) to the recipe below and it didn't fit in very well. Koolada would probably work better but I don't have any at the moment.

Black Honey Tobacco 9%
Toasted Marshmallow 2%
Vanillin 1.5%
65/35 VG/PG

I let it sit in a hot water bath for about two hours as well.

Quick Question- How does everybody test their juices? Do you use a dripper with new cotton? What type of build do you use?

I use the same gear I use daily, a Taifun GT. Since the 100DT method will produce about 3 mils, more or less, the tank works best for me. I use cotton, Japanese Cotton pads actually made by Koh Gen Do. It takes me a good 20 or so vapes to get the gist of the flavor, so I prefer a tank. I may or may not change the cotton between 100DT's. Usually I don't, but then again, I vape enough to get the gist of it anyway. Good luck!

 

[Aurora-Oblivion]

No, the myth is that juice that requires steep times, or long steep times to fully develop. The flavor can be mixed with precision to a precise flavoring one may desire and then at about 95% arrested where no further changes occur, i.e., citric acid among others. The other myth is that waiting a week or two MAY improve flavoring and is best practices. For me, and me alone, 99% of the time, waiting never made bad juice good, or good juice great. Juice is either great at mix and improves with time, or one should remix. Some of the largest juice makers in the U.S. explained this to me a couple of years ago, and I have independently verified it. In my opinion, and mine alone, YMMV, if juice is not really great ATM, it's never going to be. Perhaps 1% of the time, the exception becomes the rule, but it's rare in my experience. The problem is that we're flying completely blind hoping time will cure a bad mix, instead of mixing to taste and locking in flavor (citric acid). I know there are many that disagree and prefer the long steep method, but I wasted half a year failing one mix after another, and developed my 100DT method to make juice I could vape RIGHT NOW! In mixing, it was either GREAT ATM, and perhaps slightly improved over 24 hours, or I kept mixing until it was. This is just one man's opinion, and is not universally shared.

It kind of makes me nuts, though, when I hear people on this thread talk about waiting a few weeks to see how something turns out, when I know 75% - 99% of the time, that's not going to happen. It makes it very difficult for new juice makers to ever learn how to make great juice, so I ascribe to another way of explaining DIY that does work for new members. I have plenty of recipes that do require long steep times. However, I can duplicate them with HFM's and have the same juice ready to vape in two hours. There are exceptions to this, most notably tobacco. The reason I cringe, and push back is that I almost quit DIY because I couldn't make a single decent juice for six months trying the long steep method. Had I not had a substantial investment, I most certainly would have quit. When I discovered HFM and 100DT and targeting ATM mixes, my juice took off. Within a year and a half, I had 150 juices, 40 commercial, viable and used today. So, I'm all about the new DIY'er not going back and forth with experienced juice makers. I fully recognize that long steep mixing can make some amazing juices, it's just too slow for me, but just as viable. So, my point is that there's more than one way to do this, and there are dozens of threads on dozens of sites devoted to LFM and steeping. I just want to have one thread, this one, also celebrate the alternative and equally viable HFM method.

Thank you for your questions and allowing me to share this information again on this thread. For the new maker that may be reading these posts for the first time, have heart, you can be vaping something great today, if you like. There are many ways to do this DIY thing! Good luck to you, my friend!

I know for a fact what happens to said flavor (cupcake) in 1-2 weeks, it's not a myth I have mixed it many times in various mixes. I do appreciate what you are trying to do and correct for new and or frustrated users, but I'm not one of those so we don't need to rehash all of that for me like I'm lost or new. I do agree, your method works for you, and many others, and I think that's great!! It's just not for me, no problems from me about your methods either, I just prefer things differently (As do you)

Bill, I do sincerely thank you for your time answering me, and I have read your reasons and methods many times over the past 6 months. And I do understand where you are coming from, it's just not my intended method, which you agree is fine too. There's no need to feel like I'm leading anyone new or old astray from your method or any "right way", they can do things your way if they want, but it doesn't mean I need to in order to have good juice, nor does it mean talking other than your method is going to cause people failures. Everyone can read and test all/any methods, and do what they like, one persons questions and comments isn't going to lead anyone down the wrong path unless they follow that fork in the road.

Thanks again for taking the time to reply Bill! I don't mean to frustrate or offend you or anyone, and hope that just because I don't mix that way doesn't mean we can't continue to discuss TFA with each other.

Not to derail Aurora's derailment of this thread but, Bill, what dilution for the citric acid. I know it's been discussed several times in the past but ECF search engine lacks to say the least or possibly user error. I seem to remember 1\4 teaspoon per 9ml of pg. Would you confirm or correct please sir?

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No derailment here, other than your negative comment above, nor none intended from me!!! I asked a valid question, directly to Bill as it was his recipe I mixed and I had a question or two. I got my answer, his way is all he could help with, and I'm fine with his answer and I appreciate the time he took replying, it's just not for me 24/7.

Just because I do not subscribe to his method 100% of the time with every mix, does not make my questions or comments about a TFA recipe within a TFA thread a derailment of this TFA thread. This is a community thread for anyone to talk TFA about, using any method they like!