The Flavor Apprentice Flavoring Thread

[Bill's Magic Vapor]

I've wondered about this particular flavor myself -- I absolutely cannot ABIDE raspberry; the flavor itself makes me feel sick. So how do other fruit flavors benefit from its inclusion? I don't get that -- the last thing I want to taste in a strawberry or blueberry or cherry is that godawful raspberry taste, or god help me, blackberry, which to me may be even worse-tasting than raspberry, though the flavor doesn't make me feel sick, it just makes me feel repelled. Ditto all that for pomegranate, ugh. Whoever had the brilliant idea to mix blueberry and pomegranate for all these fruit-juices these days, needs to be whipped.

How is it possible to add the taste of something you hate, to something you like, and make it taste better? I don't get that at all.

Andria

Raspberry at 2% is overwhelmed by the stronger flavorings and cannot be tasted. However, it will neutralize the chemical/floral note and bring out the fruit flavoring in the primary. just try it! What have you to lose. You can't "out-think" flavoring. Some of the best recipes are made by accident. Why close your mind to the possibility that others have experimented with and found worked well for them. Just try 'em out and see for yourself. Some day, we'll have a chemical engineer come here and explain all of the ins and outs to us of "why." In the meantime, experiment, try new things, find what doesn't work, what does work, and have fun. Best way.

Try the grape without raspberry or strawberry. Horrid! 2% of either....wonderful. Why? Don't know. Taste the raspeberry or strawberry? No...just grape without the floral/chemical notes. Just works...

 

[WarBlaze]

grape toolol im going to try rasberry in every thing
jk
but will try it in some places
only issue is i have FA raspberry and in my time in diy FA flavors are potent so i may try like .5% and slowly work up lol

 

[AndriaD]

Raspberry at 2% is overwhelmed by the stronger flavorings and cannot be tasted. However, it will neutralize the chemical/floral note and bring out the fruit flavoring in the primary. just try it! What have you to lose. You can't "out-think" flavoring. Some of the best recipes are made by accident. Why close your mind to the possibility that others have experimented with and found worked well for them. Just try 'em out and see for yourself. Some day, we'll have a chemical engineer come here and explain all of the ins and outs to us of "why." In the meantime, experiment, try new things, find what doesn't work, what does work, and have fun. Best way.

Try the grape without raspberry or strawberry. Horrid! 2% of either....wonderful. Why? Don't know. Taste the raspeberry or strawberry? No...just grape without the floral/chemical notes. Just works...

I dunno, I guess for me the main issue is cost -- it seems kinda silly to pay good money for something whose taste I despise. But, at Bullcity, I can get 6ml bottles of TFA flavors for about $1, $1.50 or so, so sometime when I'm stocking up some flavors, I might try it. Haven't tried any "grape vape," it's not really a huge favorite of mine, but with all this in mind, I *have* wondered if I might get closer to the blueberry taste I want, by adding some other weird flavor to it. But, I haven't yet tried the TFA Wild Blueberry, though today I'm going to; that Strawberries and Cream recipe I created has turned out so well, I'm thinking of trying a variation of it with Wild Blueberry, but instead of the 4% CAP Vanilla Custard v2, I thought I'd substitute 4% FW Vanilla Cupcake -- it might get me a little closer to the "blueberry muffin" flavor I'm after. But the other thing I'm going to be trying, along that line, is Inawera's "Biscuit" flavor; I've heard such great things about it.

I'm also thinking that what ECF needs is a DIY thread "Mixed-brand recipes" for those of us who constantly mix stuff using a variety of brands -- so far nothing I've made has been all one manufacturer's flavors, and I know it must be annoying to be in the TFA thread and see all these recipes using CAP or FW or Inawera flavors, and probably same goes for cluttering up the Inawera thread with recipes using TFA, CAP, or FW flavors.

Andria

 

[Bill's Magic Vapor]

I dunno, I guess for me the main issue is cost -- it seems kinda silly to pay good money for something whose taste I despise. But, at Bullcity, I can get 6ml bottles of TFA flavors for about $1, $1.50 or so, so sometime when I'm stocking up some flavors, I might try it. Haven't tried any "grape vape," it's not really a huge favorite of mine, but with all this in mind, I *have* wondered if I might get closer to the blueberry taste I want, by adding some other weird flavor to it. But, I haven't yet tried the TFA Wild Blueberry, though today I'm going to; that Strawberries and Cream recipe I created has turned out so well, I'm thinking of trying a variation of it with Wild Blueberry, but instead of the 4% CAP Vanilla Custard v2, I thought I'd substitute 4% FW Vanilla Cupcake -- it might get me a little closer to the "blueberry muffin" flavor I'm after. But the other thing I'm going to be trying, along that line, is Inawera's "Biscuit" flavor; I've heard such great things about it.

I'm also thinking that what ECF needs is a DIY thread "Mixed-brand recipes" for those of us who constantly mix stuff using a variety of brands -- so far nothing I've made has been all one manufacturer's flavors, and I know it must be annoying to be in the TFA thread and see all these recipes using CAP or FW or Inawera flavors, and probably same goes for cluttering up the Inawera thread with recipes using TFA, CAP, or FW flavors.

Andria

Then use the strawberry Andria, FCS!

My goodness. The surest way to fail, I've ever seen, is to apply the maxim of contempt prior to examination. Live and learn, my dear! Good cheer!

 

[Lanore]

Great questions, Lanore!

TFA are flavorings, are, for the most part, not finished flavors, meaning single flavor mixes don't taste complete, perhaps, 90 - 95% of the time.

This was something else that interested me. I plan on buying a handful of TFA flavors around the end of January, managed to budget them in. Been thinking of what I need to buy at the same time to round out whatever I do.

I guess the reason I find the vanilla/creams/custards to be awkward is because I tend to prefer cool, wet, refreshing flavors. The idea of an apple pie flavor, or something similar, sounds so overwhelming. I'm far more into lemon, lime, melons, and occasionally sodas and spices.

I have a plan for a flavor in mind, a marshmallow/lemon/ice flavor. I can imagine the refreshing tuft of lemon cloud it should taste like. However I have a feeling it will need more than lemon, ice, and marshmallow. Deciding what all to buy with it is being difficult. However I'm reading your blog posts and I'm getting a bit of an idea of what you're driving at.

Fruit taste naturally sweet to me, but our banana, for example, does not taste sweet. If we want a sweet tasting banana we have to add both the banana and sweetener.

I actually imagine a banana flavor would require some sort of cream added to give the thickness/texture you'd want with a banana.

Edit: Adding raspberry to watermelon helps the watermelon remain non-chemical/floral, and stay fruity. It's just a trick we learn a long the way. Strawberry does the same thing.

I wonder why/how it does that.
.

Try adding sassafras to your root beer. TFA doesn't have one. But it was the missing ingredient in my root beer float. Sassafras is the original ingredient in root beer.

I actually thought of this. I love sassafras candy. Problem I ran into was that the only Sassafras flavor I can find is Lorann, and it isn't water soluble according to these forums. I've dealt with oil based citrus flavors before, it isn't pretty. I can't find a water soluble one. Still trying to figure out the carbonated component. I've heard champagne, but that sounds like it would add a weird flavor.

Licorice benefits from cream, vanillas and sweetener (what doesn't?).

Seriously? Like, the sweetener makes sense, but vanillas and cream with licorice? Brings an image to mind of eating good'n'plenties and drinking half and half. I'll give it a shot though.

Question about sweeteners: Cotton Candy Flavoring is essentially EM, right? At low percentages you can use it for a sweetener if I recall correctly? I ask because Sucralose seems to burn and gunk up coils real easily in my experience, as well as destroy flavors by muting them to death, so I try to avoid it. Haven't tried EM yet though.

I was actually thinking Anise for my licorice flavor, since I hear they have a similar flavor profile.

Somewhere along the line, I discovered that 100 drop test, with 1 drop equaling 1% of mix. This allowed me to quickly remix the percentages to discover different flavorings. I have thousands upon thousands of 100DT's to teach me about TFA flavorings....a lot of trial and error.....using my own tastes to guide me along the way.....toward the next mix.

This is actually brilliant. One of my biggest issues has been doing small batches. When I'm making 4ml's of juice to test, and I want to put 0.25% of a flavor in, how do I measure that? You just answered it for me. Do it by drops, and then make the base amount high enough that 1 drop is the lowest amount of flavor I want to add. Brilliant. Now I have to figure out how to standardize drop sizes. Honestly been considering getting a jeweler's scale and doing it by mass instead of volume....

 

[clnire]

Mixing the flavors makes sense if you do any baking. You always add vanilla to a chocolate cake. You don't taste vanilla but it brings out the flavor of the chocolate. Like a little salt does not make something salty it just brings out the flavor.

 

[MasteroftheVape]

http://www.bulkapothecary.com/lorann-oils-sassafras-flavor-water-soluble.html

I have never used it but if bulk apothecary says it's water soluable then I believe it.

 

[jimstratus]

BMV you have given 2 recipes for peanut butter cups one all tfa and one with a cheater. Have not tried either yet but will soon. The supplier I would normally get FW flavors from doesn't list that one. When I googled I found one from an oft mentioned supplier whom I do not have an account with but it's not a big deal to open one. There was 1 review for the flavor that said it tasted like coco puffs. My question is if you have tried tfa coco rounds and if so is it a similar flavor or a suitable substitute. Thanks Bill for all you and the others do to help us out.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2

 

[Bill's Magic Vapor]

This was something else that interested me. I plan on buying a handful of TFA flavors around the end of January, managed to budget them in. Been thinking of what I need to buy at the same time to round out whatever I do.

I guess the reason I find the vanilla/creams/custards to be awkward is because I tend to prefer cool, wet, refreshing flavors. The idea of an apple pie flavor, or something similar, sounds so overwhelming. I'm far more into lemon, lime, melons, and occasionally sodas and spices.

I have a plan for a flavor in mind, a marshmallow/lemon/ice flavor. I can imagine the refreshing tuft of lemon cloud it should taste like. However I have a feeling it will need more than lemon, ice, and marshmallow. Deciding what all to buy with it is being difficult. However I'm reading your blog posts and I'm getting a bit of an idea of what you're driving at.



I actually imagine a banana flavor would require some sort of cream added to give the thickness/texture you'd want with a banana.



I wonder why/how it does that.
.


I actually thought of this. I love sassafras candy. Problem I ran into was that the only Sassafras flavor I can find is Lorann, and it isn't water soluble according to these forums. I've dealt with oil based citrus flavors before, it isn't pretty. I can't find a water soluble one. Still trying to figure out the carbonated component. I've heard champagne, but that sounds like it would add a weird flavor.



Seriously? Like, the sweetener makes sense, but vanillas and cream with licorice? Brings an image to mind of eating good'n'plenties and drinking half and half. I'll give it a shot though.

Question about sweeteners: Cotton Candy Flavoring is essentially EM, right? At low percentages you can use it for a sweetener if I recall correctly? I ask because Sucralose seems to burn and gunk up coils real easily in my experience, as well as destroy flavors by muting them to death, so I try to avoid it. Haven't tried EM yet though.

I was actually thinking Anise for my licorice flavor, since I hear they have a similar flavor profile.



This is actually brilliant. One of my biggest issues has been doing small batches. When I'm making 4ml's of juice to test, and I want to put 0.25% of a flavor in, how do I measure that? You just answered it for me. Do it by drops, and then make the base amount high enough that 1 drop is the lowest amount of flavor I want to add. Brilliant. Now I have to figure out how to standardize drop sizes. Honestly been considering getting a jeweler's scale and doing it by mass instead of volume....

Get some droppers, a dozen glass ones for $10 on Amazon. To make less than 1%, prepare a solution of 3 drops VG to 1 drop flavoring to make .25%, 1 drop VG to 1 Drop flavoring to make .5%, etc. Easy peasy. As long as you use the same droppers as 1% it makes no difference as volume is not a factor. It's quick and easy to do, does not require weight, volume, or measurement. I don't use EM, only cotton candy premixed at TFA. Not the same as EM crystals that can have taste all over the spectrum depending on preparation. When I say, for example, add 10% cotton candy to 10% Cinnamon Danish to 6% Bavarian cream to make my ADV, I mean cotton candy, NOT EM mixture of some concoction, or another.

Yes I mentioned twice adding cream to the sweetener and banana in my post.

Using TFA flavorings, the best mixes are complex and generally involve 3- 10 ingredients. Good luck!

 

[Bill's Magic Vapor]

BMV you have given 2 recipes for peanut butter cups one all tfa and one with a cheater. Have not tried either yet but will soon. The supplier I would normally get FW flavors from doesn't list that one. When I googled I found one from an oft mentioned supplier whom I do not have an account with but it's not a big deal to open one. There was 1 review for the flavor that said it tasted like coco puffs. My question is if you have tried tfa coco rounds and if so is it a similar flavor or a suitable substitute. Thanks Bill for all you and the others do to help us out.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2

The best peanut butter cup to me was the one that used the FW with add ons. I still vape that one today. Really good, imho. I have the coco rounds, but haven't made it yet. I will eventually get in the mood to add to my cereal flavorings, so I do plan to use it.

 

[Bill's Magic Vapor]

I have a couple of licorice recipes:

Red Vines:

Absinthe - 2%
Red Vines - 10%
Raspberry - 7%
Sweetener - 4%
Sweet Cream - 2%

This recipe is also great when mixed with Cream Fantastico. One woman, who sells eliquid, on the strip, claims that these two combined are her favorite ADV's.

Black Cherry Licorice

Absinthe - 2%
Sweetener - 3%
Black Cherry - 15%

Black Licorice

Absinthe - 15%
Sweetener - 4%
Menthol - 1%
Sweet cream - 3%

From any of these, you can easily make licorice to your liking, by adjusting flavorings with 100DT's. Good luck!

 

[AndriaD]

Then use the strawberry Andria, FCS!

My goodness. The surest way to fail, I've ever seen, is to apply the maxim of contempt prior to examination. Live and learn, my dear! Good cheer!

I agree; it just seemed odd to think of a flavor I hate so much doing anything good for another flavor.

And it looks like I need to do the stocking-up thing anyway, since I just mixed up 20ml of that Strawberries and Cream flavor -- those 6ml bottles don't go too far, and that DX Bavarian Cream seems to be a real winner. But I agree with something I read of yours recently, about the percentage needed of that flavor -- I think you said 6%, and I tried that with the DX BC in the strawberries and cream, and it's pretty close -- at first I had tried 9%, and that was altogether too much. Finally I think I'm happy with it at 7%, but more would definitely be too much -- for all that it's a "background" flavor, it has a pretty strong taste.

Andria

 

[jimstratus]

The best peanut butter cup to me was the one that used the FW with add ons. I still vape that one today. Really good, imho. I have the coco rounds, but haven't made it yet. I will eventually get in the mood to add to my cereal flavorings, so I do plan to use it.

I'm sorry let me rephrase the question. In your opinion would you substitute tfa coco rounds for fw peanut butter cup or would you open an account with a supplier you've never used before? I plan to try both because honestly I've not tried a single recipe you've shared that wasn't good. And since we are on the subject if you say fw do you have a preferred supplier you use?

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2

 

[Friscoweather]

+1

Cotton Candy is EM, but not all EM is cotton candy, depending on percentages and preparation. I only use cotton candy and don't use EM crystals because it can yield inconsistent results for me. May work great for others, and probably does. Would EM be easy to create an offending note? I agree with you that it easily can and does, and why I use only finished cotton candy in my recipes.

That is exactly what I have experienced. I made some CF and it had an off taste. I used some hand mixed EM that I had made.

I recently purchased TFA Cotton Candy and made CF using it. Wow, what a difference! Much better with the pre made CC.[emoji4]

 

[Bill's Magic Vapor]

I'm sorry let me rephrase the question. In your opinion would you substitute tfa coco rounds for fw peanut butter cup or would you open an account with a supplier you've never used before? I plan to try both because honestly I've not tried a single recipe you've shared that wasn't good. And since we are on the subject if you say fw do you have a preferred supplier you use?

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2

I buy from Flavor West: http://flavorwest.com/index.php/water-soluble-flavoring/peanut-butter-cup.html.

I buy TFA from The Perfumer's Apprentice. I want as few people to touch my flavorings as possible. Makes sense, right? Quality, and all? I buy LorAnn direct from LorAnn, as well. Everything else I buy on Amazon, LOL! I'm a home body, and rarely leave the house, unless I'm paid to.

As I said, I haven't tried the Coco puffs, so I wouldn't recommend to a change from the recipe I have made, and that I really, really like. While I have lots of recipes, I, personally, only vape perhaps five of them. It's the missus that keeps it interesting for me. But the peanut butter cup with FW peanut butter cup is one of those that I do regularly vape. Not as good as the real thing, but not bad either!

I have no reservation opening up an account with Flavor West in answer to your question, and YES, I would do that before messing with a new recipe, when the old one has been proven to be good by my own taste testing!

Oh, and thank you for the endorsement on the recipes you have tried. I try not to list the failures! Only the ones that I think are good. Very happy that others find them so, as well. More importantly, though, is what you can learn from them to make your own, don't you think? Sometimes, just a little adjustment here and there is all it takes to make them perfect for your taste sensibililties, hhhmmmmmm? Anyway, thank you!

 

[Bill's Magic Vapor]

That is exactly what I have experienced. I made some CF and it had an off taste. I used some hand mixed EM that I had made.

I recently purchased TFA Cotton Candy and made CF using it. Wow, what a difference! Much better with the pre made CC.[emoji4]

Thank you for sharing this. I hear this all the time. EM Crystals do not taste like TFA cotton candy to me! When I say cotton candy, that's always what I mean, and I have never, ever listed any recipe with EM, because EM does not taste like TFA cotton candy, and how could it, unless you had an exact recipe and formulation from TFA? Cotton candy from TFA does not taste like any EM I've ever tried or made. Totally agree!

 

[b.m.]

Cotton candy from TFA does not taste like any EM I've ever tried or made. Totally agree!

I'm just the opposite,i have never tried the actual cotton candy flavoring,all i have used is the crystals,but if you look on tfa's site at the cc flavor,it says that what it is

Cotton Candy Flavor

Water soluble.


This is made from ethyl maltol, diluted to 10% in PG


So from the way it reads,it sounds like a simple 10% em solution which is what i've always made,there is a definite cotton candy taste there in that solution,at least to me anyway haha,so any recipe i see that calls for cc,i just use the em solution.

 

[Bill's Magic Vapor]

I'm just the opposite,i have never tried the actual cotton candy flavoring,all i have used is the crystals,but if you look on tfa's site at the cc flavor,it says that what it is

Cotton Candy Flavor

Water soluble.


This is made from ethyl maltol, diluted to 10% in PG


So from the way it reads,it sounds like a simple 10% em solution which is what i've always made,there is a definite cotton candy taste there in that solution,at least to me anyway haha,so any recipe i see that calls for cc,i just use the em solution.

So, how would you know, if you never tried the cotton candy? Maybe you should try it, and see for yourself, if there is a difference.

 

[Lanore]

Bill's Magic Vapor:

Using Absinthe to make licorice from scratch is outright genius. I've just been using premade licorice flavors. I feel a bit slow in the head now.

Wanna ask: Looking at some of your flavors in your blog posts/in this thread, they often go above 20%, sometimes up to 30%. Are you mixing these into VG ahead of time, and then adding that VG to the final mix later? Or is it actually 20-30% of the final mix?

Just curious because currently I'm mixing between 15-20% flavoring but always attributed that to cheap lower quality flavorings. From lurking the DIY section I had come under the assumption that once you start using quality flavors and making more complex blends that percentages tend to go down to 8-12%.

Made me wonder because higher PG irritates my throat. I'm constantly trying to push past 80% VG.

Also, sorry if it comes off like I'm harassing you. It's just that I manage to learn more in a few posts picking someone's brain than I do reading tutorials and just guessing. I tend to springboard off other's experience. That and you always seem happy to respond. I know you can't possible know everything for certain and I won't have definitive answers until I make a plunge and get a good selection of flavors for myself.

 

[CampbellMC]

So Bill I should ask you what you recommend I try out first with the flavors I have ordered. I am very into the Fruit flavors, and as I mentioned before I would really like to make a raspberry lemonade as well (been craving this one). So here is the flavors I have ordered:
Strawberry
Blueberry(Extra)
Watermelon
Raspberry(Sweet)
Lemon
Hawaiian Drink
Cheesecake(Graham Crust)
French Vanilla Cream
Vanilla Swirl
Sweet Cream
Cotton Candy

I already have a few recipes saved to try, but I would love your (and anyone elses) input on what would be some good mixes to get started on. Ordered up some droppers as well (although in retrospect I should have gotten a few more) and will be doing some 100 drop tests the day it comes in the mail . If there are any flavors that I should have for my next order let me know and I will add it to the list, I had to keep this order somewhat small flavor wise due to the costs of the other pieces of equipment needed to get started. Thank you!