I don't know what's up with me and my RDA's lately. I used to rely on them heavily, but more and more I find that I get a much better overall impression of flavor with my RDTAs, particularly my Griffins. One tankful and I can pick out all kinds of layers and subtleties that are muted in my drippers. Crazy.
The Flavor Apprentice Flavoring Thread
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I don't know what's up with me and my RDA's lately. I used to rely on them heavily, but more and more I find that I get a much better overall impression of flavor with my RDTAs, particularly my Griffins. One tankful and I can pick out all kinds of layers and subtleties that are muted in my drippers. Crazy.
my question to you would be ,do you vape the at the same settings as you do in your drippers? if you read back a ways Bill also states that he has found that many juices react flavor wise in different equipment. Air intake and placement of coils make a difference on flavor and also chamber volume and design play another role. when you through in that after quitting smoking ,if you were a smoker, your taste buds change and your sense of smell changes dramatically. I smoked cigs, cigars and pieps for almost 40yrs and after being smoke free for over 3yrs now my sense of taste is still changing. I have some store bought juices that i purchased maybe 6mths or more ago and they taste different then when I got them. it could be from steeping and it could be equipment but as with my diy juices they evolve and so do i. sorry for the long winded reply but i dont post much but read alot.
I don't "drip", but I find a big difference between my tanks, and my RDA's, using the same coil build, and wicking material. The RDA's are the only one I can play around with as far as "placement" goes, but it's doesn't seem to make much difference.
The only difference would be the air ... can't adjust it on the tanks I have, but even playing with the air on my RDA's can't give me the same flavor.
I do notice a big difference in "heat", which I think kills some flavor.
I'm experimenting with other coil builds, and I'm going to try some longer drip tips.
That may cut some of the heat, and bring out more flavor in the RDA's
I use the same juice in each, and about 70% of the flavors are not "there", or any good in the RDA's, compared to the tanks.
I keep hearing how much better the flavors are in a RDA, so it must be me .. because mine are gone or worse.
Well, back to the lab
It's not just you.I have several Rda's that suck for flavor haha.I have been lucky and found several that give me great flavor as well though.I think some are designed more for clouds which sacrifices the flavor,so i tend to look for the ones with a smaller inside chamber,and get good flavor from them.I keep hearing how much better the flavors are in a RDA, so it must be me .. because mine are gone or worse.
Well, back to the lab
My experience has been that my own DIY will "fade" faster than commercial blends. My opinion is that flavor longevity is affected more by evaporation than oxidation.
Oxidation certainly degrades nicotine; adding harshness and peppery notes while diminishing active "strength" which can alter the juice's peak profile. But, I postulate that more of what we sense as loss, is actually caused by the evaporation of the volatile compounds (compounds that easily become gases/vapors... even at "room" temp).
This can be seen, and even encouraged, a couple different ways by vapers:
1. Whenever we leave the top off a mix (either DIY or store-bought) to "allow" ethyl alcohol to evaporate.
2. Using heat (warm water baths, microwaves, nuked dry rice, etc.) accelerates this process. (Some mixers will even go so far as to leave certain flavors OUT; only to add them AFTER their choice of speed steep or extended shelf time.)
So, it stands to reason, that besides affecting the unwanted stuff like alcohol; it is also going to affect wanted compounds that are wanted/needed for optimal flavor. I read somewhere here on ECF someone suggesting an experiment that got me thinking about this. They suggested that you take a puff of your chosen flavor and really focus on its taste. Then do the same thing but hold your nose closed so you are force to inhale, then exhale, through your mouth. Notice how much of the flavor is lost.
You can take this even a step further. Do it with a flavor that is more light and aromatic. Then try it with a deeper/heavier flavor like a custard.
My personal experience has been that certain flavors, like lemon, certain strawberries/raspberries, and light florals like honeysuckle, dissipate rather quickly (2-3 weeks(ish)). While Other flavors like tobaccos, vanillas, and custards have no problems hanging around for more than 9 months.
I also believe things such as storage temp (warmer=faster), container material (plastic vs. glass, soft rubber eye dropper tops vs. solid caps), and excessive head space will all contribute to this effect.
So why does this affect DIY faster than commercial products? I am GUESSING that this is due to the common practice of High(er) flavor mixing. More flavor means there is more volatiles present, and can be lost, before it is really missed. How may times have you heard a mixer say they have/do cut commercial juice with unflavored and actually prefer it; or at least find it as good as the original. @Sugar_and_Spice mentioned this very experience a few posts back.
I love my Griffins! They have been my favorite until I finally got around to trying a Vaperesso Gemini I had purchased back at the beginning of the year. I have to say that my Griffins have taken a back seat to the Gemini. To me it has better flavor and vapor production.
I am not sure why as they are similar in design. The only differences I can see are the chamber cover of the Gemini is tapered vs. the flat top of the Griffin. Which leads to the shorter and slightly larger diameter(?). Not sure.
Both the Gemini and the Griffin 25 have the top airflow, in addition to the normal bottom AF, so the chimney is double walled.That has been my experience so far too!
I personally found that I have less change in flavor from air adjustments than temperature adjustments (though if I go to extremes I can "dilute" the flavor) too. What else I found interesting is that the exact same set-up (tank, coil, wick) will have different "optimum" temperature/power settings for different flavors.
I wouldn't buy a bunch to start. It will cut the heat of the puff but I am guessing that it is going to reduce the flavor; not increase it. The reason I think so is that, as a tank user, I have found that the "more flavor" producing tanks I have, compared to the "less flavor" tanks, all have shorter/wider (not as long/tall and wider diameter) chimneys (the little tube that attaches the chamber cover to the top/drip tip.
Please keep in mind that I only use rebuildable tanks; I have no idea how true this might be for tanks that use the ready-made coil heads. And, of course, your experience may be totally different from mine.
I personally found that I have less change in flavor from air adjustments than temperature adjustments (though if I go to extremes I can "dilute" the flavor) too. What else I found interesting is that the exact same set-up (tank, coil, wick) will have different "optimum" temperature/power settings for different flavors.
I wouldn't buy a bunch to start. It will cut the heat of the puff but I am guessing that it is going to reduce the flavor; not increase it. The reason I think so is that, as a tank user, I have found that the "more flavor" producing tanks I have, compared to the "less flavor" tanks, all have shorter/wider (not as long/tall and wider diameter) chimneys (the little tube that attaches the chamber cover to the top/drip tip.
Please keep in mind that I only use rebuildable tanks; I have no idea how true this might be for tanks that use the ready-made coil heads. And, of course, your experience may be totally different from mine.
Funny this is coming up now because in the last month or so, I have acquired different types of drip tips than I usually use. I like the pawn style of tips and the mings too. It started when I got the Ultimo tank to try the ceramic coil and it comes with a different type of tip. I know I am probably a little late to the rebuilding party as I have not yet built my first coils but have all the stuff to do just that now, so I know that drippers have been around for a long time, I have just never used them before. First I started with the temp to adjust the flavor of the juice I was using, and you are correct in that heat does mute the flavor of the ejuice big time. But what I found interesting is I put a shorty 510 drip tip that has a larger diameter than regular 510 on a regular sized melo and also got a better hit of flavor while using the same watts as I had used all along. I am thinking that just the additional air flow coming from the hit is what is causing increased flavor to be detected? All this time that I have vaped I always thought that the size of the drip tip for the drippers was just to allow for the ejuice to be dripped onto the coils. And having re-read my own post just now realize you guys have probably know about the flavor increase all along and I am just discovering it. Boy am I slow....lol
Anyway, I wrote all of this to say, that yes, the size of the drip tip does influence flavor....at least for me.
back to lurking now..........
I wouldn't buy a bunch to start
I don't buy the ready-made coil heads either, and I've got enough assorted wire and wicking material to experiment forever.
Seriously, thanks for all the info and opinions ... you gave me some new ideas
Seems with all the choices of wire, builds, and wicking, it could take forever to come up with the perfect choice ... then you run outta juice
I agree with you Sugar! That has been my experience as well.
One of the problems with tanks, when compared to drippers, has been restricted air flow. (The other being juice flow. ). My vaping journey began with the smoking need to "feel it" in my lungs. I attribute that to part of the reason why patches, pills, gum, and even chew never helped me quit. I could literally make myself nauseous with orally ingested nicotine and still want a smoke. Drippers fit the need, but I am inherently lazy, and I hated all the fiddling with needing to re-drip every two or three puffs. So it very quickly became apparent that it was tanks for me. My problem was tanks four years ago generally didn't easily permit direct-to-lung vaping. So, as I experimented with different tanks looking for more air flow, I discovered that the ones with better/easier air flow also had better flavor. Bonus!
I've considered that. I don't know how much it has to do with the air-to-steam ratio, verses the speed with which I can get the vapor from the chamber to my mouth, verses the "cool down"effect caused through more restricted airways of longer/tighter chimneys and drip-tips.
I haven't yet run in to a tank that I can't open the adjustable air flow wide open. I still think the chimney is the restricting point of a tank. To allow any reasonable capacity of the reservoir, without making the overall tank too tall or too fat, you have to create space by shrinking down the diameter of the connecting tube (the chimney) between the coil chamber and the top of the tank. In my experience, it has only been since they started making tanks with the chuff-style drip tips, and therefore had to enlarge the diameter of the chimney and sacrifice some of the capacity, that the flavor production has improved (and, IMHO, now can even, in some instances, surpass drippers).
I also believe that the generally smaller coil chamber is a benefit to flavor vs. the larger ones found on most drippers. The closest dripper (for flavor) that I own is the little Derringer which has one of the smallest chambers while still accepting dual coils. But even that I still have to close off the air supply a bit or it will dilute the flavor.
Never!
You just found something that works/worked for you and were not in any rush. Good for you! I'm just glad now you have discovered something that works even better!! You and me both Slots!
I'm a cheap old curmudgeon and wasn't about to keep paying $3.50 for a coil that "might" last a week/week and a half. Not when I can make them for a couple of cents a piece. I'm just tickled someone got some benefit from my ramblings! Thanks for saying so!Seriously, thanks for all the info and opinions ... you gave me some new ideas
BTW: I am seriously envious of your extra-cool super spiffy emojies!
Sweet! I love to hear when folks share their latest "wins!"I think you've got something there. I went digging in the drip tip drawer, and grabbed a wider bore just to try .. It was an improvement in the flavor.
Nice!!Ain't that the truth! When I finally broke out the Gemini to try, I was feeling stingy (did I say I was cheap?Seems with all the choices of wire, builds, and wicking, it could take forever to come up with the perfect choice ... then you run outta juice
) and didn't want to waste my clapton wire (I buy the premade stuff on 10' spools), so I slapped a pair of old-school no-contact, 29 gauge, 10 wrap, 3mm dia., kanthal coils on it. They meter out at 1.45 ohms. Results?: more flavor... more vapor... and about 50% longer battery life. This compared to my usual 2.5mm 5 wrap dual claptons which meter out at 0.24 ohms.I understand the higher resistance requiring less power and therefore better battery life; but I can't explain the improved flavor and vapor. I don't know how much is the coil type and how much is the different tank. I know the way to be sure is to put my usual clapton build in the new tank but I don't want to ruin a good thing!
The clapton is one I haven't tried yet.Y I was feeling stingy (did I say I was cheap?
I have so much kanthal, and SS, it's ridiculous ... I don't dare find something I like better
I build using the 29g just because SuperX does ... then someone suggested I drop to the 28g because I was complaining about the hot vape.
I'm not so sure it's any better.
I'm thinking of dropping lower, but then ...I'm an impatient vaper.
I start the draw the second I push the button.
I have to remind myself to wait for the coil to heat up ... and the lower I go with the gauge, the longer the wait
I'm like you, I build around 1.5 to 1.7.
I tried duels once, didn't see any difference or advantage, other than it being a pain in the ... to build with old eyes, and arthritic hands.
Guess I'll just have to keep experimenting.
Hey, we're not so far apart ... I'm in Moses Lake, Wa
Yeah, I'm not so certain anymore, in like of my recent experience. The idea of increased surface area made sense to me, but if I can get as good/better results using 29 guage, why not? There very well may be good reason if someone is cloud chasing but that's not my goal.The clapton is one I haven't tried yet.
I have so much kanthal, and SS, it's ridiculous ... I don't dare find something I like better
I would think simply lowering your wattage would serve you better; especially sinse you already have a stockpile of wire. As you mention; the only thing a heavier wire does for heat regulation is increase the ramp-up time and/or require more power.
I'm thinking of dropping lower, but then ...I'm an impatient vaper.
I start the draw the second I push the button.
I have to remind myself to wait for the coil to heat up ... and the lower I go with the gauge, the longer the wait
I hear ya; aren't we creature of habit? My very first vaping experience was on one of the early cig-a-likes where you had to inhale to turn it on. I never broke the habit.That creature of habit thing again. I started building coils on a Vivi Nova where you would just make a few wraps of 30/32 gauge, around a couple of strands of rayon, and had to keep it above 1.2(ish) to stay safe. I then, like a lemming, wanted to be able to blow a "respectable" cloud, so I started going the sub-ohm route. It helped boost the flavor a bit so I just kind of stayed in the 0.5 - 0.8 ohm range. The claptons have such comparitively low range so those took me down to the 0.2-0.3 ohm range (it's hard to get up to 0.4 ohms when you use duals
). It is just some recent reading here on ECF, and elsewhere, (and the amount of juice I was going through), as well as this most recent positive experience that I am back to the +1.5 end of things again. I only do because duals because that is the intended use of the tanks I am using; what they are designed for. I used a Kanger Subtank Mini, which is single coil, for about 14 months and liked it just fine (other than the airflow was way too restrictive). If I could find a purpose-built single coil tank, that had the free airflow of my griffins or gemini, I would give it a try. It would be nice not having to fuss with having to match resistance of coil A with coil B.
And I share your pain in regards to the age problem. The eyes are going, coordination is going, things are beginning to creak that never creaked before! I used to laugh when my Dad would sy "It's hell getting old!" I don't think it is quite as funny now.
And that is what keeps me entertained (and poorGuess I'll just have to keep experimenting.
).Howdy N. W. neighbor!
Looks like we're about 5 1/2 hours away from each other. Spittin' distance around these parts!
You and me both Slots!
I'm just tickled someone got some benefit from my ramblings! Thanks for saying so!
BTW: I am seriously envious of your extra-cool super spiffy emojies!
Sweet! I love to hear when folks share their latest "wins!"
Ain't that the truth! When I finally broke out the Gemini to try, I was feeling stingy (did I say I was cheap?
I understand the higher resistance requiring less power and therefore better battery life; but I can't explain the improved flavor and vapor. I don't know how much is the coil type and how much is the different tank. I know the way to be sure is to put my usual clapton build in the new tank but I don't want to ruin a good thing!
Could it be that the larger coil with more wraps, single wire, spaced is allowing more juice to contact the coil & vaporize than the smaller id dual clapton?
The clapton is one I haven't tried yet.
I have so much kanthal, and SS, it's ridiculous ... I don't dare find something I like better
I build using the 29g just because SuperX does ... then someone suggested I drop to the 28g because I was complaining about the hot vape.
I'm not so sure it's any better.
I'm thinking of dropping lower, but then ...I'm an impatient vaper.
I start the draw the second I push the button.
I have to remind myself to wait for the coil to heat up ... and the lower I go with the gauge, the longer the wait
I'm like you, I build around 1.5 to 1.7.
I tried duels once, didn't see any difference or advantage, other than it being a pain in the ... to build with old eyes, and arthritic hands.
Guess I'll just have to keep experimenting. [emoji14]
Hey, we're not so far apart ... I'm in Moses Lake, Wa
The higher the wire gauge, then the smaller the wire is, & the faster it heats up. I use 28 gauge single coil ss or kanthal always, & it gets hot enough plenty soon. I never have to wait for it to heat up. My coils are 1.3 to 1.5. I tried 30 guage wire & it got too hot, too fast & burned my juices. 28 gauge is perfect. I don't like a hot vape, warmish is good.
That creature of habit thing again. I started building coils on a Vivi Nova where you would just make a few wraps of 30/32 gauge, around a couple of strands of rayon, and had to keep it above 1.2(ish) to stay safe. I then, like a lemming, wanted to be able to blow a "respectable" cloud, so I started going the sub-ohm route. It helped boost the flavor a bit so I just kind of stayed in the 0.5 - 0.8 ohm range. The claptons have such comparitively low range so those took me down to the 0.2-0.3 ohm range (it's hard to get up to 0.4 ohms when you use duals
What wattage are you vaping your 1.5 ohm? I'd love to revisit those waters, but I'm afraid I've become addicted to my dual Clapton 0.3 65 watt fill the house with vapor clouds 5 ml per hour vaping style.
Like I said, I haven't tried the clapton, but I think your theory is right on. That's one reason my 30g will sit around and get dusty
(so to speak).I'm afraid I've become addicted to my dual Clapton 0.3 65 watt fill the house with vapor clouds 5 ml per hour vaping style.
I only vape about 6ml all day ... but then I use 16mg, so I don't have to run around with it in my mouth all the time.
I'm a mouth to lung vaper, and I don't chase clouds, so can't help you there.
I also use 60-70pg, so, .. a nice amount of vapor, but no big clouds there either.
Speaking about getting the best flavor from our juice .. has anyone else tried the TFA Blue Raspberry.
I really like it, but I had to work my way up to 15% .
I didn't add anything, as I was testing the flavor solo.
It was plenty sweet for me, and has a nice flavor all by itself.
Some might think it would taste better with a touch of some kind of cream, or even a "bakery" added, but it's nice to know it doesn't take 4-8 other additives to get a good vape.
Like I said, I haven't tried the clapton, but I think your theory is right on. That's one reason my 30g will sit around and get dusty
View attachment 609923 "5 ml per hour"
I only vape about 6ml all day ... but then I use 16mg, so I don't have to run around with it in my mouth all the time.
I'm a mouth to lung vaper, and I don't chase clouds, so can't help you there.
I also use 60-70pg, so, .. a nice amount of vapor, but no big clouds there either.
Truthfully, the 5 ml per hour part doesn't bother me much. I'm well-entrenched here with more reserves of supplies than I could reasonably vape in my remaining lifetime. It's more my vaping style. I like deep, direct lung inhales with rich, voluminous VG cloud exhales. I vape with the "double hit method", first hit is inhaled shallowly and exhaled quickly, really just to heat up the coil for that second deep, warm hit. I've been doing it that way since I started vaping. It's impossible for me to just take a single hit at a time, and I've long since forgotten how to MTL.
I'm just curious if it's possible to maintain my vaping style at 1.5 ohms. Seems like things would get way too hot way too fast to be enjoyable. In the past 1 ohm was necessary with my Kayfuns due to limited air and juice flow. It wasn't perfect, but I didn't know what I was missing. I made the most with what I had to work with at the time, and it was satisfying enough to vape at 1 ohm/less than 20 watts. When the Subtank Mini came out it changed everything for me. Air and juice flow still lacking, but it could handle DL at .5 ohms and 30 watts pretty well with high VG liquid. It put me on the road to where I am today, at 0.2=0.4, dual Claptons, high flow RDTAs.
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I doubt you could go to 1.5 and maintain your vaping style.What wattage are you vaping your 1.5 ohm? I'd love to revisit those waters, but I'm afraid I've become addicted to my dual Clapton 0.3 65 watt
I like deep, direct lung inhales with rich, voluminous VG cloud exhales. .
I'm just curious if it's possible to maintain my vaping style at 1.5 ohms.
I'm kinda stuck there because I love my provari's, and therefore am limited
My squonkers are a different story, and those are the ones I'm trying to get a good vape from.
I don't have any control with the style I have.. straight mechanical.
I have found better flavor from the smaller 18mm versa the 22mm
The only thing you can do, is try it .. don't know what results you would get with 1.5, comboed with high wattage ... if it doesn't blow up, let us know
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