If the parrot wasn't cremated we could ask someone to do an autopsy to be 100% sure.
I also wish everyone a very Prosperous and Happy New Year 2014!
The myth of second hand vape
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If the parrot wasn't cremated we could ask someone to do an autopsy to be 100% sure.
I also wish everyone a very Prosperous and Happy New Year 2014!
It is about "Second Hand vape" as per the title of the thread. I addressed MY thoughts and feelings, No Studies, No Papers, My Feelings, AND Those around me, which is about what the Title of this Thread is about, exposure to those around you, not yourself. ALL around me are glad I vape and not smoke, as it does less harm to them, but does it do no harm, ???? But it does less than smoking, which I would have done anyway as I was addicted to it. So with me it is a win situation all around by me vaping instead of smoking.
Well off to the sidelines and getting some
Vape On
I'm done with this thread.
I tried to prove using mathematics how incredibly tough it would be to reach concentrations of second hand vaper in an enclosed area. I used incredibly insane assumptons that would serve to make the concentrations even higher than they possibly can.
And yet, the only arguments are, where are the studies?
People provide links to studies and people say...Well, those studies are old, were done on monkeys, or were not done on actual e-cig vapor.
In a true debate, the last bastion of an indefensible position is to create doubt. One does not need to use logic, statistics, studies or proof to create doubt. One only needs supposition and to repeat the same argument over and over again without refuting what has been said.
When some one attacks my math and asks me to double or triple the numbers, I multiply the numbers by 100 and still show the the absurdly low concentrations of vaporizing a few ml of e-liquid into hundreds of millions of ml of air.
I'm tired of arguing. I provided my position. Which was always about concentrations of second hand vape in public places. and all I get back in response are even more absurd suppositions.
I'll let others be the judge. I've done my job. I'm outta here. Others can bang their heads against the wall.
When you're told that you can't vape in your own home because of some ludicrous alarmist claims that you might harm your baby or precious pet, then you can pat yourself on the back and tell yourself, job well done.
I tried to prove using mathematics how incredibly tough it would be to reach concentrations of second hand vaper in an enclosed area. I used incredibly insane assumptons that would serve to make the concentrations even higher than they possibly can.
And yet, the only arguments are, where are the studies?
People provide links to studies and people say...Well, those studies are old, were done on monkeys, or were not done on actual e-cig vapor.
In a true debate, the last bastion of an indefensible position is to create doubt. One does not need to use logic, statistics, studies or proof to create doubt. One only needs supposition and to repeat the same argument over and over again without refuting what has been said.
When some one attacks my math and asks me to double or triple the numbers, I multiply the numbers by 100 and still show the the absurdly low concentrations of vaporizing a few ml of e-liquid into hundreds of millions of ml of air.
I'm tired of arguing. I provided my position. Which was always about concentrations of second hand vape in public places. and all I get back in response are even more absurd suppositions.
I'll let others be the judge. I've done my job. I'm outta here. Others can bang their heads against the wall.
When you're told that you can't vape in your own home because of some ludicrous alarmist claims that you might harm your baby or precious pet, then you can pat yourself on the back and tell yourself, job well done.
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It is about "Second Hand Vape" as per the title of the thread. I addressed MY thoughts and feelings, No Studies, No Papers, My Feelings, AND Those around me, which is about what the Title of this Thread is about, exposure to those around you, not yourself. ALL around me are glad I vape and not smoke, as it does less harm to them, but does it do no harm, ???? But it does less than smoking, which I would have done anyway as I was addicted to it. So with me it is a win situation all around by me vaping instead of smoking.
Well off to the sidelines and getting some
Vape On
Right, those are all givens. Nobody has denied that vaping isn't better than smoking for all involved. The debate is whether or not it's HARMLESS (not less harmful). That's a big distinction that you're missing in your posts.
Yes I get what you are saying but all im pointing out is that if these 4 or 5 or more people can't satisfy your needs even-though they have provided "kind of" what you asked for, why argue with them further? Use what they have researched and gave you as a head start and research it yourself. Im not sounding mean but it would definitely avoid the argument which can lead to flaming which will eventually close the thread down, and we dont want this thread to be closed because this is a useful and important information right?
Im not on anyone's side but yeah, nothing has been proven in the long-term effect wether it is harmful or not harmful. We just gotta accept what's on the table and maybe help find a conclusion to it.
It is about "Second Hand Vape" as per the title of the thread. I addressed MY thoughts and feelings, No Studies, No Papers, My Feelings, AND Those around me, which is about what the Title of this Thread is about, exposure to those around you, not yourself. ALL around me are glad I vape and not smoke, as it does less harm to them, but does it do no harm, ???? But it does less than smoking, which I would have done anyway as I was addicted to it. So with me it is a win situation all around by me vaping instead of smoking.
Well off to the sidelines and getting some
Vape On
That Math stuff means nothing MSNBC says vaping is bad they should know they had a pretty blond expert telling us so!
I'm not sure.
But I think Mr. Feathers ended up being Stuffed. And now Sits, never moving, keeping a Watchful (glass) eye on the Living Room from atop the Fireplace Mantle.
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A Very Happy and Prosperous New Year to you also RosaJ.
Stupid pills are apparently on sale at the end of 2013. Let's hope that 2014 brings with it a bit more appreciation for basic math...
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Here are a couple of problems with your post, Burnie.
One,
Nobody in this thread has said that it isn’t safe or that it is bad. You are distorting what I and some other posters are saying, so, I am not sure who is making himself an *** here. And, BTW, why did you have to go there? Calling a person an ***.
Two,
Well, this is exactly what we are talking about here, is it not? Sounds like you agree with me and some other posters here that it is still an unknown … that long term studies are needed, sooooo, I am not sure what your point is, why the hostility, why you go around calling ppl names. Yours is a bizarre post.
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Well I just want to say thanks for this thread, it's going to help me explain to people what is in the vapor, and how much. I have had a couple people ask me how much nic is in second hand vapor, and you example will help me a lot. Thanks.
Mission accomplished. Success achieved.
Been following along and am yet to see anyone refute OP with anything other than opinion and hypothesis.
And yet, the myth lives on for another day.
Looks like smoking, therefore, logically it absolutely has to be treated like smoking.
(Said no reasonable person.... ever)
By your name and your avatar, I think you're trying to be cynical but missing the point.
For all the aversion I see in the community to PG due to allergies (really, most of what I read are sensitivities no risk of death, so not an allergy) we have all the long term usage we can possibly have. There was the study where they put monkeys and dogs in a pg mist for 6 months straight; much denser than any vape meet I've seen or heard of; only long term issue was dry patches on exposed skin that resolved itself after removal from the mist/fog. No cancers, lung issues, or other early death issues on those animals.
PG is also piped into ventilation systems in various public areas as a "safe" disinfectant/purifier. It's also one of the most commonly used suspension agents in soft drinks, flavors, and medication. If anyone would have a problem with this stuff, it would be asthmatics; but PG is the delivery agent/inactive ingredient in a lot of inhalers. A MOUNTAIN of evidence is there for that. All dating back some 50+ years.
VG is the questionable one for me; it seems a lot of folks like this because it sounds less chemical, but I digress. Not sure on this one so I wont speak to it other than the fact that it is GRAS certified.
Flavorings; there was a study I read a year or so ago from the CASAA.or website that evaluated the air quality of a more confined than OP suggestion of 10x10 room. Flavoring agents were too minute to detect, so it was less than 50ppm, whereas the next one....
Nicotine - this one is well known, albeit the most feared of them all. Nicotine in the above referenced study was only able to find trace amounts, which is less than 100ppm. This stuff is abundant in our natural diet, and beneficial in correct dosages. However, the more research I'm seeing about both Nicotine and Caffeine - in normal suggested dosages, they are about the same; safety wise. Am I saying that Nicotine is safe? No, but I am saying tha Caffeine is an addictive drug that people dont think twice about, and is far more dangerous than most people care to understand.
So, it boils down to second hand vapor is a nuisance not a hazzard.
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Have you missed the posts where people have said it felt like their throats were closing up after vaping? Sounds like an allergy, to me. How about the ones where people who vaped cinnamon or citrus felt the same thing? Are these reactions limited to the person vaping, or possible via second hand vape? My wife sneezes when I vape certain juices. Is this an allergic reaction?
On OP's original post, allergies were being ignored for the sake of discussion; I brought up the PG allergy vs sensitivity thing to show that this stuff is being inhaled without your knowlege or consent in public places, without a single vaper in sight. These are shopping malls, hotels, hospitals, and clinics.
The other thing I forgot to bring up in previous post was the fact that flavorings are used extensively in cooking and baking. And yes, as the eater of the baked goods, you're not inhaling it; but what about the chefs and cooks that are using them and inhaling the steam on a near constant basis day in and day out?
So allergies not considered; yes, I believe the flavorings are safe. 100%, no, but not a hazzard to public health that requires special regulation as was the case with smoking.
Oh, ok. Well, if you believe they are safe, then they must be. Post a link to your study.
You don't inhale a potato, so you cannot compare it to that.
As far as the math goes...
What about a room with say 20 people (say a small gathering) and 10 of those people are vaping?
would that be 4.0 mictrograms?
Or say a room with 200 people (say a night club) and 100 of them are vaping?
would that be 40.0 micrograms?
I agree that second hand vapor is probably not near as bad as second hand smoke, but is it completely safe?
We won't know that for certain until the proper studies are done.
Also, the studies should be done with large gathering scenario's because social gatherings would be more of a real world sittuation.
As far as the math goes...
What about a room with say 20 people (say a small gathering) and 10 of those people are vaping?
would that be 4.0 mictrograms?
Or say a room with 200 people (say a night club) and 100 of them are vaping?
would that be 40.0 micrograms?
I agree that second hand vapor is probably not near as bad as second hand smoke, but is it completely safe?
We won't know that for certain until the proper studies are done.
Also, the studies should be done with large gathering scenario's because social gatherings would be more of a real world sittuation.
You need to account for the size of the room, has a bearing on the concentration of nicotine, as well as the number of people, as it is unlikely that one person would inhale all the nicotine.
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If you put 200 people in a 10x10x10 room without ventilation, you have more to worry about than 40 micrograms of nicotine
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