The Really Big RY4 Roundup (long)

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billherbst

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Hiryu,

For me, one of the trickier parts of posting on ECF is the delicate balance between freely stating one's personal opinions (meaning likes and dislikes), yet still observing a certain diplomacy around the inevitable fact that some people will like what I dislike, and vice versa.

On occasion, the sustained effort of respectful sensitivity becomes tiresome, and I just want to come right out and say, "Holy crap! This juice/PV/carto/tank/vendor/whatever sucks eggs! It's just awful." Seemingly every time I do this---as in the case of my comment that VY4 is "just lousy"---someone posts how much they like the very thing I detest, and then I feel that I have unjustly rained on their parade.

My apologies. No doubt many other people also like VY4 as you do, or they wouldn't keep making it. I've vaped so many different RY4s over the past three months of this thread that I'm getting to be an old curmudgeon about all RY4s.

On the other hand, those hard, clear plastic 5ml dropper-top bottles really do suck, and I don't care if anyone else feels different about them. Those damned bottles are simply terrible for dripping, and that's a fact. The 10ml versions are a tiny bit better to drip with, but not by much. I wish all vendors would stop using them (fat chance of that...)

As to the LF4 or VY4 name mystery, who knows? The label on my bottle is a Liberty-Flights label (as opposed to a Vapure label), but it has the juice name in bold printing as "VY4," which it clearly is. Why your bottle says LF4, who decided to change it, and why---these are all mysteries that we'll probably never find true answers for. We're just lowly end consumers, not privy to whatever dramas go on behind the scenes.
 

Hiryu

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No, no! You misunderstood! I don't think you rained on my parade, I think you helped me figure out where I stand in the RY4 world.

As much as I completely hated RY4, and still definitely do in the case of Dekang, one thing I have learned from this thread is that there are many takes, recipes and variations on the mix. Enough to find at least one version that will satisfy any one palate.

RY4 was one of the very first juices I ordered, not because of the hype, but because of it's promise: tobacco, caramel and vanilla flavors, blended together into a smooth, sweet, satisfying vape. As you already know, my experience was extremely different from that. To me (and I stress, TO ME), vaping Dekang's RY4 was like grabbing my grandma's stinkiest perfume, taking a deep drink and swishing it around in my mouth, only to gargle it and inhale it afterwards.

Perhaps, it is these chocolate undertones you mentioned (and that I honestly had not thought about before, even after equating LF4/VY4 to vaping a candy bar) what kills the chemical and perfume taste I find so, very off-putting. Maybe it's just that it uses different flavoring bases... who knows.

In any case, LF/VY 4 is not quite there yet for me, to be honest... but from the few RY4's I've tried so far, it is the first one I did not find offensive and even actually enjoyed.

My quest for a nice, flavored cigar-like, tasty caramel+vanilla+tobacco vape continues, but at least this one felt like a step on the right direction to me.

And just because it bears repeating. Those 5ml bottles are terrible. I like a bit of resistance, so I don't overdrip by accident, but that is just ridiculous.
 

billherbst

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Below is the most current update of the rankings. Please keep in mind that numerical rankings are 1) inherently sort of silly (just like the "Top 100 Rock Songs of All Time" and every similar list), and 2) they are just my opinion---your taste buds and nose may not sing to your brain like mine do to my brain.

RY4 Rankings

1. Janty RY4 Classic or Elixir
2. Health Cabin Dekang RY4
3. Ikenvape IKV RY4 Gold, PG Blend
4. VapeRite Organic VR4
5. PrimeVaping PV4
6. VaporTalk Dulcis
7. Bloog/Volt RY4
8. LiquidXpress Taboo
9. Esmoke4Life Riskee Yuice
10. ElixirLiquid RY4

11. Want2Vape RY4
12. BackwoodsBrew RY4
13. NiteLiteVapor Renegade RY4
14. ECBlend Ruyan 4 (lite recipe)
15. QuickNicVapor RY4
16. Vixen Vapors RY4
17. VapeRite RY4
18. Liberty-Flights Hangsen RY1-RY4
19. KalamazooVaporShop RY4
20. GoodEJuice RY4

21. TheVaporRoom Ginger's RY4
22. TopShelf RY4
23. VapeDoctor RY4
24. VaporStation VS4
25. SmokeForPennys RY4
26. JooglerJuice Joogler's Blend
27. KickBassVapor RY4
28. Want2Vape Rock Star
29. VaporStation RY4
30. High Caliber Our 4

31. VapeMasters R4
32. FreedomSmokeUSA RY4
33. HoneyvilleVapor RY4
34. GourmetVapor RY4
35. AwesomeVapor RY4
36. Halo Tribeca
37. Copper Creek Twisted Tobacco
38. Mist-Stix RY4
39. VoidMist RY4 (all 3 versions as a group)
40. Vapure VY4/Liberty-Flights LF4

41. AltSmoke RY4
42. BlueMistVaping RY4
43. FlavourArt oRYental 4


Category Groups

Stronger Tobacco (less sweet)
Health Cabin Dekang RY4
Ikenvape RY4 Gold
VaporTalk Dulcis
Esmoke4Life Riskee Yuice
BackwoodsBrew RY4
NiteLiteVapor Renegade RY4
VapeRite RY4
Liberty-Flights Hangsen RY1-RY2
TheVaporRoom Ginger's RY4
VaporStation VS4

Dessert (more sweet)
Janty RY4
Bloog/Volt RY4
Vixen Vapors RY4
QuickNicVapor RY4
Liberty-Flights Hangsen RY4
GoodEJuice RY4
KalamazooVaporShop RY4
TopShelf RY4
VapeDoctor RY4
SmokeForPennys RY4
Kick Bass Vapor RY4
High Caliber Our 4
CopperCreek Twisted Tobacco
VoidMist RY4 (all 3 versions)
Vapure VY4/Liberty-Flights LF4
nHaler RY4

Nutty
Ikenvape IKV RY4 Gold, PG Blend
VaporTalk Dulcis
LiquidXpress Taboo
ElixirLiquid RY4
QuickNicVapor RY4
VapeRite RY4
KalamazooVaporShop RY4

Caramel Rich
VapeRite Organic VR4
PrimeVaping PV4
LiquidXpress Taboo
Want2Vape RY4
Vixen Vapors RY4
GoodEJuice RY4
TopShelf RY4
Kick Bass Vapor RY4
GourmetVapor RY4
CopperCreek Twisted Tobacco
VoidMist RY4 Version 1
Vapure VY4/Liberty-Flights LF4
nHaler RY4

Vanilla Rich
PrimeVaping PV4
BackwoodsBrew RY4
QuickNicVapor RY4
JooglerJuice Joogler's Blend
FreedomSmokeUSA RY4
CopperCreek Twisted Tobacco
VoidMist RY4 Version 3

Liqueur
BackwoodsBrew RY4
Vixen Vapors RY4
QuickNicVapor RY4

Balanced/Blended
Janty RY4
Health Cabin Dekang RY4
PrimeVaping PV4
VaporTalk Dulcis
Bloog/Volt RY4
ElixirLiquid RY4
ECBlend Ruyan 4
VapeRite RY4
Liberty-Flights Hangsen RY4
GoodEJuice RY4
KalamazooVaporShop RY4
VaporStation VS4
SmokeForPennys RY4
Halo Tribeca

Variants (non-typical)
VapeRite Organic VR4
BackwoodsBrew RY4
Liberty-Flights Hangsen RY1
TheVaporRoom Ginger's RY4
JooglerJuice Joogler's Blend
Kick Bass Vapor RY4
Want2Vape Rock Star
High Caliber Our 4
FreedomSmokeUSA RY4
Halo Tribeca
CopperCreek Twisted Tobacco
VoidMist RY4 (all 3 versions)
Vapure VY4/Liberty-Flights LF4

So-So (undistinguished)
Mist-Stix RY4
VoidMist RY4 (all 3 versions)
Vapure VY4/Liberty-Flights LF4
Altsmoke RY4

Bizarre (just plain weird)
BlueMistVaping RY4
FlavourArt oRYental 4
 

Gotcoffee

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I'm looking for the old Janty Ry4 and Pure Riskee, where to me had a cotton candy aftertaste. Ive bought the Ry4 from Janty about 8 months ago and it was not the same taste to me not sure if they changed it? But I just can't see paying the price. Out of all the RY4's that you tried does any of them have that cotton candy burnt sugar after taste?
 

billherbst

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According to Ludo, one of the primary owners of Janty and the co-creator (with a Chinese flavor chemist) of the original RY4 (those two men named it Ruyan 4, since it was the fourth formula they tried that day, and then they shortened the name to RY4), nothing has ever changed in the ingredients or formula that Janty uses for its RY4. Ludo states (and the Janty web site reiterates this) that Janty RY4 is exactly the same liquid Janty has been selling since 2007.

I can't personally confirm that what Ludo says is true, but I can confirm that the information is first-hand---directly from Ludo. You can, if you wish, ask him yourself, since Janty has a supplier forum here on ECF. Or send him a PM.
 

Gotcoffee

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Yes I questioned Ludo a long time ago and got the same answer. I use to order only Janty liquid back in 2008 and then later switched to Jane's kick juice because of the price difference, by the way try the toasted toffee kick juice it's another RY4 varient. It is very good. Then one day I was craving the old Janty RY4 so placed an order in. I don't believe it's the same juice because the old Janty RY4 had a cotton candy after taste like Riskee, The new order of Janty RY4 didn't have that taste. Might just be my taste buds. Who knows just would like to get that old taste back.


According to Ludo, one of the primary owners of Janty and the co-creator (with a Chinese flavor chemist) of the original RY4 (those two men named it Ruyan 4, since it was the fourth formula they tried that day, and then they shortened the name to RY4), nothing has ever changed in the ingredients or formula that Janty uses for its RY4. Ludo states (and the Janty web site reiterates this) that Janty RY4 is exactly the same liquid Janty has been selling since 2007.

I can't personally confirm that what Ludo says is true, but I can confirm that the information is first-hand---directly from Ludo. You can, if you wish, ask him yourself, since Janty has a supplier forum here on ECF. Or send him a PM.
 

billherbst

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Gotcoffee,

Yes, it's difficult to be certain about any of these kinds of questions. Should we trust information from others? Should we trust our own memories? Should we rely on our taste buds/nose? I've been vaping for a year, and my palate has already gone through two or three major shifts.

I have no personal opinion about whether Janty RY4 is the same or different because I began vaping it only about two months ago, first in the Classic, now in the Elixir Line, so I have no idea what it tasted like years ago. I do hope you find something that satisfies your longings, however.

I just placed an order from ESCI from some Toasted Toffee Kick Juice. Thanks for the tip.
 

Gotcoffee

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100% agree with you I thing you will like the toasted toffee it is still one of my all time favorites. Also thanks for doing this great roundup. I know it's take a lot of time but has been very helpful.

Gotcoffee,

Yes, it's difficult to be certain about any of these kinds of questions. Should we trust information from others? Should we trust our own memories? Should we rely on our taste buds/nose? I've been vaping for a year, and my palate has already gone through two or three major shifts.

I have no personal opinion about whether Janty RY4 is the same or different because I began vaping it only about two months ago, first in the Classic, now in the Elixir Line, so I have no idea what it tasted like years ago. I do hope you find something that satisfies your longings, however.

I just placed an order from ESCI from some Toasted Toffee Kick Juice. Thanks for the tip.
 

Zombitedesade

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For what it's worth I could tell no real discernible difference between the standard Janty or the Elixir range. There is, perhapes a slightly more sutble, crisp clean like taste on the pallet to the elixir range, like a fresh Budwiser lager compared to a groosh like European lager blend. Perhapes. As I mentioned, it's barely detectable though and it could all be in the mind.

Janty, in either form is so well balanced and offset wonderfully with a sourness on the exhale it remains a class of it's own.
 

billherbst

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For what it's worth I could tell no real discernible difference between the standard Janty or the Elixir range. There is, perhapes a slightly more sutble, crisp clean like taste on the pallet to the elixir range, like a fresh Budwiser lager compared to a groosh like European lager blend. Perhapes. As I mentioned, it's barely detectable though and it could all be in the mind.

Janty, in either form is so well balanced and offset wonderfully with a sourness on the exhale it remains a class of it's own.

Zombite,

I agree.
 

billherbst

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I purchased both these juices for review from their respective vendors. The Sweet-Vapes RY4 is a 60/40 PG/VG blend at 18mg nic, while the EliteVaporworks RY4 is 16mg nic strength in an unspecified base, probably either all-PG or an 80/20 PG/VG blend. Both liquids are almost colorless and transparent, with only the slightest golden tint. Juices were tested by dripping on a 1.5 LR510 atty run at 4.2 volts.

Neither of these juices has much chance of breaking into the Top 10, but both are solid, tasty RY4s that nest toward the middle of the pack and are worthwhile additions to the Big List.

Vapor production and throat hit are better in the Sweet-Vapes than the EliteVaporworks---to be expected because of Sweet-Vapes' higher-VG blend and slightly greater nicotine concentration---but both are completely acceptable in those departments.

They differ more in flavor than in performance. The EliteVaporworks RY4 is nicely blended into a unified overall flavor , although it probably qualifies as caramel-rich. It has a very slight zing of citrus that doesn't scream "fruit!" but adds to the taste experience in a positive way for me. Flavor is ample, but it has the subtlety of a complex blend. By contrast, Sweet-Vapes RY4 is simpler and less unified. Each flavor---tobacco, caramel, and vanilla---stands out as individually distinct, with the tobacco and vanilla elements leading the way. I like that the clean, bright tobacco comes through strongly, with a very pleasing bite, almost a kick. A rich vanilla then follows, with the caramel remaining more in the background, but still distinct. Neither juice is overly sweet, so no dessert vapes here. Also no nuts, no sour element for balance (but then, the lack of sweetness means that sour wouldn't work for balance anyway and would just taste funny), no stray flavors or weird aftertastes. These are both wonderfully clean RY4s that I can recommend without hesitation.

I rank Sweet-Vapes RY4 at a very respectable and even impressive #14 for the stronger tobacco fans, while the caramel-lover's EliteVaporworks RY4 finishes somewhat lower at #21, which is hardly shabby in a race with 45 horses, some of which are powerful thoroughbreds.
 

billherbst

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I went back yesterday and revisited all the juices ranked in the 20s---the middle of the pack and somewhat below---to see if any had changed (whatever the reason, whether the newer juices had improved from steeping, or if my tastes had changed since last trying them, sometimes months ago). As a result, the rankings are shifted somewhat, with one stunning change in particular.

VaporStation VS4 made a spectacular leap up in the rankings, from #23 all the way to #12. This change is clearly about me, since the juice itself was purchased nearly six months ago. Why the dramatic change in its ranking? I don't know exactly. I spent all afternoon vaping VS4 and comparing it to RY4s just above it in the rankings. It was like a single-elimination tournament. Winner goes on, loser goes home. One by one, VS4 beat out the juices just above it and rose in the rankings, further and further. When I first got VS4, I liked it a lot. Then I didn't like it so much for quite awhile, and now I do again. Go figure. Proof positive that rising from obscurity is possible on this list (like VS4), as is falling from grace (like BackwoodsBrew RY4). Oh, I am the vengeful god of the RY4 cosmos! LOL.

So, this is the most current update of the rankings. Please keep in mind that numerical rankings are 1) inherently sort of silly (just like the "Top 100 Rock Songs of All Time" and every similar list), and 2) these rankings are just my opinion---your taste buds and nose may not sing to your brain like mine do to my brain.



RY4 Rankings



1. Janty RY4 Elixir

2. Health Cabin Dekang RY4
3. Ikenvape IKV RY4 Gold, PG Blend

4. VapeRite Organic VR4

5. PrimeVaping PV4

6. VaporTalk Dulcis

7. Bloog/Volt RY4

8. LiquidXpress Taboo

9. Esmoke4Life Riskee Yuice
10. ElixirLiquid RY4


11. Want2Vape RY4

12. VaporStation VS4
13. BackwoodsBrew RY4
14. Sweet-Vapes RY4

15. NiteLiteVapor Renegade RY4

16. ECBlend Ruyan 4 (lite recipe)
17. QuickNicVapor RY4
18. Vixen Vapors RY4

19. VapeRite RY4
20. Liberty-Flights Hangsen RY1-4


21. KalamazooVaporShop RY4

22. EliteVaporworks RY4
23. GoodEJuice RY4
24. TheVaporRoom Ginger's RY4
25. VapeDoctor RY4
26. GourmetVapor RY4
27. KickBassVapor RY4
28. TopShelf RY4
29. SmokeForPennys RY4
30. JooglerJuice Joogler's Blend


31. Want2Vape Rock Star
32. VaporStation RY4

33. High Caliber Our 4
34. VapeMasters R4
35. FreedomSmokeUSA RY4

36. HoneyvilleVapor RY4

37. AwesomeVapor RY4

38. Halo Tribeca
39. Copper Creek Twisted Tobacco

40. Mist-Stix RY4


41. VoidMist RY4 (all 3 versions as a group)
42. Vapure VY4/Liberty-Flights LF4
43. AltSmoke RY4
44. BlueMistVaping RY4
45. FlavourArt oRYental 4




Category Groups



Stronger Tobacco (less sweet)

Health Cabin Dekang RY4
Ikenvape RY4 Gold

VaporTalk Dulcis

Esmoke4Life Riskee Yuice

VaporStation VS4

BackwoodsBrew RY4

Sweet-Vapes RY4
NiteLiteVapor Renegade RY4

VapeRite RY4

Liberty-Flights Hangsen RY1-2

TheVaporRoom Ginger's RY4



Dessert (more sweet)

Janty RY4
 Elixir Line
Bloog/Volt RY4

Vixen Vapors RY4

QuickNicVapor RY4

Liberty-Flights Hangsen RY4

GoodEJuice RY4

KalamazooVaporShop RY4
VapeDoctor RY4
Kick Bass Vapor RY4
TopShelf RY4
SmokeForPennys RY4
High Caliber Our 4

CopperCreek Twisted Tobacco

VoidMist RY4 (all 3 versions)
Vapure VY4/Liberty-Flights LF4
nHaler RY4



Nutty
Ikenvape IKV RY4 Gold, PG Blend

VaporTalk Dulcis

LiquidXpress Taboo

ElixirLiquid RY4

QuickNicVapor RY4

VapeRite RY4

KalamazooVaporShop RY4



Caramel Rich

VapeRite Organic VR4

PrimeVaping PV4

LiquidXpress Taboo

Want2Vape RY4

Vixen Vapors RY4

EliteVaporworks RY4
GoodEJuice RY4

GourmetVapor RY4

Kick Bass Vapor RY4
TopShelf RY4
CopperCreek Twisted Tobacco

VoidMist RY4 Version 1

Vapure VY4/Liberty-Flights LF4
nHaler RY4



Vanilla Rich

PrimeVaping PV4

BackwoodsBrew RY4
Sweet-Vapes RY4

QuickNicVapor RY4

JooglerJuice Joogler's Blend

FreedomSmokeUSA RY4
CopperCreek Twisted Tobacco

VoidMist RY4 Version 3



Liqueur

BackwoodsBrew RY4

Vixen Vapors RY4

QuickNicVapor RY4


Balanced/Blended

Janty RY4 Elixir Line

Health Cabin Dekang RY4
PrimeVaping PV4

VaporTalk Dulcis

Bloog/Volt RY4

ElixirLiquid RY4
ECBlend Ruyan 4

VapeRite RY4

Liberty-Flights Hangsen RY4

KalamazooVaporShop RY4
EliteVaporworks RY4

GoodEJuice RY4

VaporStation VS4

SmokeForPennys RY4
Halo Tribeca



Variants (non-typical)

VapeRite Organic VR4

BackwoodsBrew RY4

Liberty-Flights Hangsen RY1

TheVaporRoom Ginger's RY4

Kick Bass Vapor RY4

JooglerJuice Joogler's Blend

Want2Vape Rock Star

High Caliber Our 4

FreedomSmokeUSA RY4

Halo Tribeca
CopperCreek Twisted Tobacco

VoidMist RY4 (all 3 versions)

Vapure VY4/Liberty-Flights LF4

So-So (undistinguished)

Mist-Stix RY4
VoidMist RY4 (all 3 versions)

Vapure VY4/Liberty-Flights LF4
Altsmoke RY4


Bizarre (just plain weird)

BlueMistVaping RY4

FlavourArt oRYental 4
 

billherbst

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Bill, just curious if you've had a chance to try the reformulated Renegade RY4? If not, I'd be really curious to see whether it moves up or down...

goodtimes,

The version of Renegade RY4 that's on the current rankings list and in the category groups is the reformulated "beefier" Renegade. Originally, I reviewed the earlier, first version, which was a bit leaner. After Gene sent me for free a 30ml bottle of the newer version, Renegade moved up a couple spots in my rankings. I also purchased a second bottle of the new version, because---silly me---I didn't realize that what Gene had gifted me with was the revised formula.

Gene at NiteLite and Donley at want2vape have both been very generous with me, often including large sample bottles. Gene's pricing ($3.50 for 10mls and $10 for 30mls) is fantastic, especially given the deliciousness, quality, and popularity of his juices.
 

billherbst

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I've been trying to create a good RY4 via DIY for much of the past year. None of the DIY from-scratch recipes I found in the DIY form has produced a juice that's anywhere close to the Top 10 on the Big List here, which was disappointing at first but now is just what I expect. In addition, I've bought many different RY4 flavoring concentrates---from Want2Vape (sold by xtremevaping.com), VaporRenu, BlueMist, Perfumer's Apprentice, FlavourArt, and GoodEJuice. Want2Vapes is the best of the bunch, but it's far from the "real thing."

After reviewing the Hangsen RY4 from Liberty-Flights---which is very good, though not quite in the Janty-Ikenvape-Dekang league---I discovered soon after that ecigexpress, one of my DIY sites of choice, now sells some tobacco flavor concentrates from Hangseng, including RY4. I couldn't help but buy some. Today I mixed up a small bottle. Well, this is more like it! The end result is pretty much the same as the pre-mixed Hangseng RY4 juice. So, this post is a head's up for those of you that dabble in DIY. $5.99 for a 10ml bottle, and it's very concentrated. I'd guess that a single bottle will make at least 50mls of RY4, more or less, depending on how strong you like it.

http://www.ecigexpress.com/flavorin.../e-liquid-tobacco-essence-select-flavor-p-925

Also, I was browsing the DIY Recipes sub-forum yesterday and came across a thread for making what the author called Peanut ButteRY4. The recipe is simple: 10% RY4 flavoring (Perfumer's Apprentice), 3% Caramel Original (Perfumer's Apprentice), 7% Peanut Butter (Lorann's).

My first reaction was that it might taste like the "mystery nut" DK-TAB from Dekang. In addition, I've already tried Perfumer's Apprentice RY4 flavoring, and it's nothing to write home about. In short, I was extremely skeptical. But I had all three flavorings in my DIY stash, so I thought, "Why not?" Last night I whipped up 10mls, adding one drop of Tobacco Absolute to kick up the tobacco a bit and upping the total percentage of flavorings from 20% to 25% for more oomph.

Well, the end result isn't really an RY4-variant, but it is surprisingly good. Very smooth with a nice bite from the Absolute. Sort of like Reese's Peanut Butter Cup with a tobacco kick. Works very well with the otherwise sub-par Perfumer's Apprentice RY4 flavoring, transforming it into something different but good.

This got me to wondering what the recipe would taste like using real RY4 juice, so I got out my big bottle of Dekang RY4 from Madvapes, which is a much "leaner" version of the rich and yummy newer Dekang from HealthCabin. I still have 40mls left of that year-old 50ml bottle from Madvapes, and I'll never vape it again, so I whipped up a batch of the peanut butter concoction substituting the old Dekang for the PA flavoring. To my surprise, it didn't work. Just sort of meh.

Anyway, if you've got some of the Perfumer's Apprentice RY4 flavoring lying around unused, this Peanut Butter Cup RY4 is a perfect use for it. I'll definitely make more and keep it on hand. I've loaded the first batch into one of my homemade dual-coil carto-tanks (made from two 6cc syringes) and have been vaping it off and on all day today. Very tasty and pleasing.
 

billherbst

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has anyone tried VOODOO Copper Creek... I am taking it as a RY4 from the description "Creamy Caramel and Vanilla, with tobacco undertones"

passerbyeus,

I ordered some Voodoo two days ago in my third order from Copper Creek. Twisted Tobacco is described on the site as their version of RY4, but I found it to be so un-RY4-like that I put it on the extreme boundary of RY4-variants. I also didn't personally like it all that much. By contrast, the description of Voodoo, while not mentioning RY4, seemed to me much more centered in RY4 territory, but I'll find out when my order arrives.

As an aside, I noticed with dismay that Copper Creek's juice pricing has risen significantly. Price for a 30ml bottle has leaped up from $12.50 to $16.50---an increase of 32%! Now, I don't begrudge vendors charging enough to make a real living and pocket some profits, and $16.50 for 30mls is not outrageous (it's roughly in center of the pricing bell curve for quality juice from American vendors), so I don't want to complain too much. That said, I no longer regard Copper Creek as any sort of bargain, and that matters to me.

Numerous vendors charge in excess of $20 for 30mls, plus additional shipping charges. With the sole exception of Janty RY4 (which I will probably never need to buy again now that I have 30mls), I simply refuse to buy juice at those exorbitant prices. Curiously, however, I also shy away from the extreme low end of the price range as well ($10 or less for 30mls), but that's because I have discovered time and again that I simply don't like these ultra-bargain juices---$10 is no bargain for a juice I won't vape.

My shining example of superlative juice at a very reasonable price is Nite Lite Vapor. Gene charges $3.50 for a 10ml bottle and $10 for 30mls with reasonable shipping costs. Now that is an amazing bargain. I don't know how Gene does it, but it's great for us!

I've spent enough on juice over the past year to break the bank, but I plan to cut back and focus more on DIY, which I'm getting much better at finally. All things considered, even with failures, DIY juice-making is dirt cheap and great fun.
 
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