The situation may be getting worse.
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You're welcome hon! Apologies for the delay. As soon as fresh coffe is brewed, I'll send you an email to go with those PM's I just sent.
Well, since I (along with most of us) am not privy to any of the information about this, I'll be hoping that this will all work out for the best, but I will also be expecting a full ban of e-cigs.
If we're a mere four months (or less) from a complete ecig ban and are still trying to rally the troops, I have a feeling that all of this is too little, too late.
If we're a mere four months (or less) from a complete ecig ban and are still trying to rally the troops, I have a feeling that all of this is too little, too late.
I really am hoping for the best, I was part of the program and discussions with Rachel in the beginning and i was given full disclosure of a lot of what was happening, and while things have progressed far beyond that point, i do have faith that Rachel has OUR (not just the suppliers but the whole community) best interests at heart... key words being "At Heart"...
However, the attitude that Rachel is currently projecting is that Customers have and can have no say or no input on what is going to be acceptable within vaping and has no right to even put their two cents in... This is incorrect and I sincerely hope that this is merely a misunderstanding and not the actual facts...
if this is the case, I feel its important to remind Rachel and those whom she is representing (both suppliers and those supporting the suppliers) that this is a community and not just a business... if you create an official organization that has rules that the community as a whole (AKA the customers) cannot stand for and will not abide with, guess what, the community will abandon that organization and those companies that support that organization and new companies will arise and new standards will be created that match those viewpoints of the community as a whole....
Rachel, you and the vendors NEED to have our input, you need to have our direction... you are not our dictators, you are our suppliers, but you are not our ONLY suppliers and even if that were to be the case(ie, effective method of blocking 100% of cross border trade), If the regulations were to be something i and everyone else cannot stand for, we will look elsewhere for our vaping needs. I know how to make an atomizer (may look crude but they will work just fine), I know how to make a battery box and i know the basics for making crude juice and i am sure that there are others who also have knowledge of how to safely make the juice or who are willing to go the blackmarket route and bring it in "illegally"...
Is this the route I'm suggesting...??? not by a long shot...!!!
Please remember why you're here and why you are doing this... You aren't supposed to be pushing this hard to make people rich, you're supposed to be working hard because people need to drop the butts and pick up e-cigs for a healthier life... When profit becomes more important than our health and our community you become no better than HC and you will have lost our support and we will go elsewhere. All i'm saying is, please keep in mind that you and the suppliers are not, and will never be tolerated as, dictators... as with any population (not held at physical gunpoint) you can only hold supreme power for as long as we allow you to hold it, revolution does work and usually those who had all the power end up with no power of any kind and no respect and nothing to look out to...
I'm not trying to be confrontational or ignorant, but i just feel its important to remind you of this... if i'm misreading your responces then just take this as a reminder of where you're going and why its important to do this...
However, the attitude that Rachel is currently projecting is that Customers have and can have no say or no input on what is going to be acceptable within vaping and has no right to even put their two cents in... This is incorrect and I sincerely hope that this is merely a misunderstanding and not the actual facts...
if this is the case, I feel its important to remind Rachel and those whom she is representing (both suppliers and those supporting the suppliers) that this is a community and not just a business... if you create an official organization that has rules that the community as a whole (AKA the customers) cannot stand for and will not abide with, guess what, the community will abandon that organization and those companies that support that organization and new companies will arise and new standards will be created that match those viewpoints of the community as a whole....
Rachel, you and the vendors NEED to have our input, you need to have our direction... you are not our dictators, you are our suppliers, but you are not our ONLY suppliers and even if that were to be the case(ie, effective method of blocking 100% of cross border trade), If the regulations were to be something i and everyone else cannot stand for, we will look elsewhere for our vaping needs. I know how to make an atomizer (may look crude but they will work just fine), I know how to make a battery box and i know the basics for making crude juice and i am sure that there are others who also have knowledge of how to safely make the juice or who are willing to go the blackmarket route and bring it in "illegally"...
Is this the route I'm suggesting...??? not by a long shot...!!!
Please remember why you're here and why you are doing this... You aren't supposed to be pushing this hard to make people rich, you're supposed to be working hard because people need to drop the butts and pick up e-cigs for a healthier life... When profit becomes more important than our health and our community you become no better than HC and you will have lost our support and we will go elsewhere. All i'm saying is, please keep in mind that you and the suppliers are not, and will never be tolerated as, dictators... as with any population (not held at physical gunpoint) you can only hold supreme power for as long as we allow you to hold it, revolution does work and usually those who had all the power end up with no power of any kind and no respect and nothing to look out to...
I'm not trying to be confrontational or ignorant, but i just feel its important to remind you of this... if i'm misreading your responces then just take this as a reminder of where you're going and why its important to do this...
Personally I don't see Ian or Jack or Kat or James, as a small sample of suppliers, as dictators nor do I see Rachel acting as a supplier agent to make them richer.
I think it's important to remember too that everyone involved in this is a vaper first and foremost. Our interests are their interests. That vendors and suppliers (and Rachel) have a vested interest as well is only reason for them to work harder to make this work for all of us.
This is about the legal right for us to choose a safer alternative to smoking, establishing acceptable standards for the industry, and securing fair and reasonable regulation so that the industry may continue and prosper without significant hindrance while ensuring standards of quality and safety for Canadian vapers.
Hey,
do i think that any of them are dictatorial?? hell no! I've dealt with Jack, Kat, James, Primo, Saby and a few others and had the opportunity to talk to a fair number of other vendors... Not one of them gives me that impression... having said that... and without making the evil connection, how many dictators came on the scene saying "i'm going to F your life up and take all your gold", no, they started off "with the peoples interest at heart...."
my only concern here was the "you're just the people and you can't possibly know whats best for you" connotation in some of Rachels wording that I, as well as others, picked up on. it may very well have been unintentional, and if so, then great, but if not and she/they really do believe that... then my statement above stands for itself.
As far as I can tell from reading this thread, us as consumers do not have any say in this. It's not Rachel's choice, it's how the sytem works. HC isn't going to listen to a community of vapers or a petition, they are going to listen to a viable plan created by the industry on how e-cigs can and should be effectively regulated. I agree that it is important for us as vapers to stand up and be heard, but as far as this coalition is concerned, it needs to come directly from the industry - the suppliers and manufacturers. I'm sure they are willing to accept constructive input should it come from us as a community.
Unfortunately, it is a business, first and foremost, just like analogues. E-cigs will likely never be part of our health care system, regardless of the benefits when compared to analogues, and it's the business of selling E-cigs and accessories that needs regulation. Making our own parts & accessories and creating a black market is not the answer, nor will it give us the freedom we desire. It is in our best interest to have our parts and accessories made to a standard, to know we are getting quality products that we can depend on, just like any other industry.
No one is vying for power or dicatorship here, it's just that this fight needs to be fought by the industry. Let's support them in any way they ask, as we as the community will be the winners in the end.
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Dauslyn,
The problem with your stance is that it presupposes that HC merely wants us to build our devices safely and just wants us to make our juices in a safe way... which is an incorrect presupposition... HC is concerned with all the same issues that they were with tobacco before they beat smokers into a quivering pile (ie... Nicotine content, Flavours, Poisonous additives, kids access, TAXES)
The problem with your stance is that it presupposes that HC merely wants us to build our devices safely and just wants us to make our juices in a safe way... which is an incorrect presupposition... HC is concerned with all the same issues that they were with tobacco before they beat smokers into a quivering pile (ie... Nicotine content, Flavours, Poisonous additives, kids access, TAXES)
I don't understand how they are able to ban the equipment. Health Canada has no governance over hardware that does not make any health claims. They can't, for example, arbitrarily ban glass pipes or syringes just because they could be used in conjunction with a banned product...
An e-cig is just a battery and an atomizer. Are they going to ban batteries and heating elements? Or just those that come in a package labeled "e-cig?" What about vaporizers? You can buy those anywhere... the ones for "tobacco use only."
An e-cig is just a battery and an atomizer. Are they going to ban batteries and heating elements? Or just those that come in a package labeled "e-cig?" What about vaporizers? You can buy those anywhere... the ones for "tobacco use only."
What exactly is the community going to win by this process? Do we think that HC will change its mind because vendors have come up with regulations? I can see it now...HC will say...son of a ....., a few Canadian vendors have come up with regulation, let's remove our health concerns/warnings and allow a free flow of product across our boarders.
What's the end game here? We will be catigorized as either medical (cessation) or tobacco product. The most likely and reasonable solution is a tobacco product. Cessation would take far too much money and time. If it is a tobacco product, then regulations are already in place.
The model to success has been provided by the US lawsuits.
As consumers, we will always be able to receive product for personal use from US/China/European companies. I'd be very careful not to alienate your customer base. We can be quite fickle.
What's the end game here? We will be catigorized as either medical (cessation) or tobacco product. The most likely and reasonable solution is a tobacco product. Cessation would take far too much money and time. If it is a tobacco product, then regulations are already in place.
The model to success has been provided by the US lawsuits.
As consumers, we will always be able to receive product for personal use from US/China/European companies. I'd be very careful not to alienate your customer base. We can be quite fickle.
Is consumer safety not part of the reason they are banning it? If HC is 'officially uninformed' about the product(s), then they are automatically opposed to it to prevent potential safety issues to the end-user. Reasonable. Of course part of this investigation includes nicotine content, flavours, poisonous additives, childrens access, taxes, Big Tobacco and a host of other potential conflicts. Until the industry can scientifically prove it's relative safety, their position remains the same. They won't listen to the users, they'll listen to the manufacturers and suppliers.
All I'm saying is that this fight that Rachel has so graciously agreed to arbitrate lies between the industry and the government. We as vapers still need to do all we can to support the greater cause, a point on which I'm sure we all agree.
In the meantime, I'm low on juice and waiting for an order from BWB, and freaking out
HC needs to piggy back the FDA, they have absolutely no way to keep people from doing what they are doing. As long as it's all over the US and you can buy stuff for pennies from china(who cares if only 1 in 5 shipments make it in) still cheaper then buying from Canadians and HC can't do anything about it. The Canadian vendors for the most part can go **** sheep. Exploiting people into paying way too much out of the fear of having customs seize something. Like 50%, 100%, 300% more than RETAIL then south or west of us but Canadians being the gutless culture of have's, are content over paying, being over regulated and whining without any real action. Sure there are a few peeps on here that I would go to war with but for the most part other then getting angry reading this stuff no one cares enough to reach out to there MP with a phone call. I've done more then most and the only things I have done was ..... at my MP's secretary(didn't get a call back from him(suprise)), join the CASSA download the teamspeak app, never attend a meeting and forget to show up to a local meet last tuesday. I am sorry about that one. Oh and this is a big waste of time writing this because the people it is directed at are the same ones that are too lazy and complacent to even bother reading it or being involved. So I feel better now and hope I made lots of new friends Going to have a beer and vape myself dizzy. PEACE!
I am sorry about that one. Oh and this is a big waste of time writing this because the people it is directed at are the same ones that are too lazy and complacent to even bother reading it or being involved. So I feel better now and hope I made lots of new friends Going to have a beer and vape myself dizzy. PEACE!
HC needs to piggy back the FDA, they have absolutely no way to keep people from doing what they are doing. As long as it's all over the US and you can buy stuff for pennies from china(who cares if only 1 in 5 shipments make it in) still cheaper then buying from Canadians and HC can't do anything about it. The Canadian vendors for the most part can go **** sheep. Exploiting people into paying way too much out of the fear of having customs seize something. Like 50%, 100%, 300% more than RETAIL then south or west of us but Canadians being the gutless culture of have's, are content over paying, being over regulated and whining without any real action. Sure there are a few peeps on here that I would go to war with but for the most part other then getting angry reading this stuff no one cares enough to reach out to there MP with a phone call. I've done more then most and the only things I have done was ..... at my MP's secretary(didn't get a call back from him(suprise)), join the CASSA download the teamspeak app, never attend a meeting and forget to show up to a local meet last tuesday.
So far my experiences with Canadian vendors have been fantastic (HappyVaper, CDNVapor). I'll pay a premium for fast shipping and outstanding customer service any day.
You're also not taking into account that in our economy, everything is more expensive than in the US, despite our stronger dollar. Higher transportation costs, taxes, and a much smaller population (lower purchasing power) make everything from cars to books to booze to cigarettes about 30% more expensive. I'll happily trade higher retail for standard of living any day.
Alas, we digress. Good job on at least phoning your MP, more of us need to step up to the plate - myself included. Are there any serious consumer-based initiatives going on besides being a member of CASSA?
I said for the most part and quoted the ones that start at 50% plus mark up retail. I do deal with a couple Canadian vendors that I view only to have a fair mark up and have been happy with them since since I started vaping. Juice can be made for dimes and nickles and some of these guys are trying to push it well over the $20.00 mark for 30ml wtf? With no or little staff and with no or very little overhead I promise you that no one selling juice around the 20$ mark for 20ml is making anything less than gold and 300%++ on their investment. But to get off the vendor gouge comment.The CASSA is the only one that I am aware of(I only view/post the "Canada" section of the website though). I remember reading Pipeous was working on establishing a chapter up here but there wasn't enough interest or dedication from enough people? However as we reach another point of loosing yet another personal freedom based on "traces of nicotine" HAHAHA HC is a joke like the CRTC and every other canadian body we are forced to follow. (Not to mention the new law being slipped in with the "Crime Bill" that your e-mail and such can be monitored without a court order.) Sorry getting off topic and people wonder why no one wants to do anything it's alot of work and a battle up hill the entire way.
But if someone is actively trying to set up a lobby group or CASSA in Canada still, let me know I can donate some time. Sick of being pushed around.
wasn't enough interest? not one single person stepped up with a single comment, let alone offered to get involved I am not interested in doing it all myself. I am an activist in things and don't mind butting heads, but I have a lot going on in my life to take over the battle by myself. I actually assumed Rachel would have been first to step up since she was active in the fight.
hell I even considered being a vendor/juice maker for a while. I agree with mopar on many points.
hell I even considered being a vendor/juice maker for a while. I agree with mopar on many points.
Fair enough.
Sorry to hear that. I've only been a part of this community for about a month so I'm still learning alot about our situation here in Canada. That being said, I'm happy to help where I can.
When folks figure out what the fight is really about, then perhaps there might be a slim chance of turning them around. In the mean time start robbing banks because that is the root of the problem MONEY. Oil and money make the world go around. If ya got it you are laughing, if ya don't your in deep doodoo.
Some interesting information just came to light on mine and Noizmaker's group on facebook! OMG, anyone who may be interested please come see! Join it here, and u must be on facebook to read it!
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all I see is blah blah (evil facebook) blah blah. if you can't post it here then it doesn't do the community any good
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