There may be an easy answer to the FDA ban

[TropicalBob]

KatyS, you're a reseller, not a manufacturer. Product responsibilities should reside above your level. I don't think anyone faults you or the other resellers for not ponying up big money to have your items tested. Your product investment was on faith, as is ours; a maker of devices should never rely on that alone. THEY are to blame if the gavel bangs this trial to an end.

 

[Faethe]

We can import cigarettes in the US. Actually, I know of no restriction on the importation of nicotine products. I still think this is a labeling issue for the most part.

As for Australia doing stupid things on impulse. Yes. Yes they do. Then the people get all ...... off and make a huge amount of noise, and then it goes away. I'm a dual citizen with the US and Oz and planning on moving to New Zealand. The noise level is much more friendly. It's also much easier to point out when the government does stupid things. Here in the US - it's not stupid things. It's terrifying things, and I do not see that stopping.

 

[Faethe]

KatyS, you're a reseller, not a manufacturer. Product responsibilities should reside above your level. I don't think anyone faults you or the other resellers for not ponying up big money to have your items tested. Your product investment was on faith, as is ours; a maker of devices should never rely on that alone. THEY are to blame if the gavel bangs this trial to an end.

Ruyan or Janty or someone with much to loose will inevitably pay up on the bribes. Johnson Creek has already made overtures towards the FDA. The have a certificate on their site now. We don't know whether the manufacturers do have things in testing. Why would they tell anyone? Business in China, from what I understand, is mad competitive. Whomever gets to the finish line first will likely use that as a hammer to disprove their competition's validity.

 

[TropicalBob]

Ruyan or Janty or someone with much to loose will inevitably pay up on the bribes.

THAT is exactly the kind of statement that dooms e-smoking. Exactly. End of patience with this kind of nonsense ... A radical segment will kill the practice. What hope is left with postings like that for the FDA to read?

 

[ed_bollix]

If it makes any difference I was able to purchase Absinthe from Eastern Europe and have it shipped to the US during the ban. The thought was that it wasn't illegal to use, just buy or sell in this country. I may have that wrong but I did enjoy my Absinthe.

 

[Heed]

THAT is exactly the kind of statement that dooms e-smoking. Exactly. End of patience with this kind of nonsense ... A radical segment will kill the practice. What hope is left with postings like that for the FDA to read?

Huh?

One comment on a forum left for "the FDA to read" has doomed e-smoking?

If one off-hand comment on a forum holds the balance for the FDA, then that's when there really is no hope -- because that means the FDA aren't bothered with investigating the issue at all and will decide based upon something equivalent to a shoolyard name calling incident.

FDA Bob: "Those nasty e-smokers insinuated on an internet forum that we are on the take!"

FDA Ted: "Oh well, I was going to pass this stuff, but now that you've showed me that -- BAN!!"

Seriously, while I can understand wanting to be careful with wording when advertising and selling the products (i.e. no health/cessation claims, etc.) I find it hard to fathom that comments on a forum are going to be the doom for e-smoking.

 

[ChadmanMn]

We can import cigarettes in the US. Actually, I know of no restriction on the importation of nicotine products. I still think this is a labeling issue for the most part.

Congress recently passed legislation that gives the FDA regulatory authority over nicotine. I dont know the specifics, but it can't be good.

 

[Faethe]

THAT is exactly the kind of statement that dooms e-smoking. Exactly. End of patience with this kind of nonsense ... A radical segment will kill the practice. What hope is left with postings like that for the FDA to read?

I don't see how anyone is going to kill the process? Are you saying that the FDA had no business with E cigs? I agree with you. But I rather doubt that will be the case. I hope it is. But if it is not, then my scenario may be what happens. I have confidence that this will sort itself out. Too much money in it to get swept under the rug, for sure.

 

[Faethe]

Congress recently passed legislation that gives the FDA regulatory authority over nicotine. I dont know the specifics, but it can't be good.

The only thing I can think of is that it would take a terrific amount of money for the FDA to do anything at this point. I don't think this will be acted on, tbh.

 

[Sun Vaporer]

Ruyan or Janty or someone with much to loose will inevitably pay up on the bribes..

This statement is in fact plain nonsense.

THAT is exactly the kind of statement that dooms e-smoking. Exactly. End of patience with this kind of nonsense ... A radical segment will kill the practice. What hope is left with postings like that for the FDA to read?

Exactly TB---That kind of nonsense has NO Legitimate Office here–and is just plan ridiculous. Stick with the facts as we know them and as they come forward—Sun

 

[Vicks Vap-oh-Yeah]

I think what WILL cause the FDA to act is if enough of a stink is raised by the non-smoking community action groups... Right now, they've got the FDA and the feds/local governments on their side - smoking is evil, smoking is bad, you smokers either have to quit or pay huge sin taxes.... don't pollute my air.... etc....

So we've cleverly come across a way to circumnavigate the smoking bans. We've found a way to avoid the huge sin taxes and it doesn't involve sacrifice on our part. We still get to "smoke." It's a classic example of "I get to have my cake and eat it, too!"

Technically, these devices found a loophole in the laws....no burning tobacco = no smoke, therefore, I can "smoke anywhere." But, the anti-smokers aren't going to like this, it's going to stick in their craw that we've found a way to be happy, and they've got the ears of the politicos who make the laws. Short and sweet, people, if we FLAUNT the loophole, it will be CLOSED.

I abide by all the non-smoking regulations currently in effect in my state. I smoke only where I'm allowed to smoke analogs. Some may think this is pacifistic thinking, but I'm in for keeping my head down, so long as I can keep my vape.

 

[mrl]

I think what WILL cause the FDA to act is if enough of a stink is raised by the non-smoking community action groups... Right now, they've got the FDA and the feds/local governments on their side - smoking is evil, smoking is bad, you smokers either have to quit or pay huge sin taxes.... don't pollute my air.... etc....

So we've cleverly come across a way to circumnavigate the smoking bans. We've found a way to avoid the huge sin taxes and it doesn't involve sacrifice on our part. We still get to "smoke." It's a classic example of "I get to have my cake and eat it, too!"

Technically, these devices found a loophole in the laws....no burning tobacco = no smoke, therefore, I can "smoke anywhere." But, the anti-smokers aren't going to like this, it's going to stick in their craw that we've found a way to be happy, and they've got the ears of the politicos who make the laws. Short and sweet, people, if we FLAUNT the loophole, it will be CLOSED.

I abide by all the non-smoking regulations currently in effect in my state. I smoke only where I'm allowed to smoke analogs. Some may think this is pacifistic thinking, but I'm in for keeping my head down, so long as I can keep my vape.

I also don't flaunt my ecig and always only vape where smoking is allowed. I do this to avoid misunderstandings ( don't want to pollute anyone's air) and also because I get to walk more. Got a pedometer, I always try to increase my steps

 

[smokingclam]

I also treat my ecig just like it was a regular in public. Though I do sneak it once in a while I don't flaunt it at all.

 

[Vicks Vap-oh-Yeah]

I also don't flaunt my ecig and always only vape where smoking is allowed. I do this to avoid misunderstandings ( don't want to pollute anyone's air) and also because I get to walk more. Got a pedometer, I always try to increase my steps

I went out and got a weekend paper route to increase my steps - get paid to do it, too...

 

[rlorange]

Oh, customs LOVES to seize personal shipments in the U.S.

Like...when Absinthe was illegal...for 95 years...because it was considered toxic...they'd seize it in a heartbeat if they found it.

Our Australian customs is just as narcy but nicotine is not illegal. The FDA would have to specifically make them 'illegal' rather than ban their sale due to poisons regulation violation from existing laws. Tricky to specificlly make them illegal without strict justification a ban using existing poisons laws I feel is more likely, fingers crossed this will not be enough fot US customs to seize personal import orders as in Australia

 

[rlorange]

Another good source of known quantities of Nic is the carts for the Nicotrol Inhailer. Each cart contains 10 mg of Nic (4mg delivered when using the Inhailer).

Indeed my friend who almost killed himself lacing his weed with nioctine (see my patch posts) tried this first. It is very easy to do without the glue worry. Indeed they have around 10mg, my friend thought that patches might have a similar amount but he was wrong, in fact they have more than 10 times the amount found in an inhaler!

You would need 2 inhalers minimum to make 1mL of liquid which is not a lot really. Very expensive to make any quantity.

I think trial and error with the solvent used to extract the nicotine from the patch plus filtering should get rid of any glue. Find the solvent which leaves the glue alone yet still dissolves nicotine. I'm guessing the most polar one because the glue resists water, maybe methanol.

 

[Sun Vaporer]

The FDA would have to specifically make them 'illegal' rather than ban their sale due to poisons regulation violation from existing laws. Tricky to specificlly make them illegal without strict justification a ban using existing poisons laws I feel is more likely, fingers crossed this will not be enough fot US customs to seize personal import orders as in Australia

The FDA is charged with enforcing the saftey of food and drug products. All the FDA has to do is issue a mandate on a product that does not meet its guidlines and the product is done. The Plight of Nicotine Water is the perfect example when it comes to Nicotine----Sun

 

[rlorange]

But the problem is, in order to sue, we need a cause of action. We need to prove that the FDA violated a duty they have towards us. The FDA doesn't have a duty to us to give us a way off cigarettes. They do have a duty to prevent drugs from being marketed that haven't been proven to be safe and effective.

Their decision is not forcing us to go back to analogs, the fact that we are unable or unwilling to quit or use approved NRT drugs is. So we don't have a legal cause of action.

It IS a nice thought, though.

Thanks for the insight Leaford, Oh by the way thanks for the informative youtube reviews you were my first point of contact to the e-smoking world and pointed me to the right advice

I'm no lawyer but could a case be made that the FDA has no right to ban e-cigarette becasue their use is no different and indeed directly comparable to existing NRT available in the market. Nicotine is hardly a new and unapproved drug which the FDA needs to protect us from. Only the delivery device, the e-cigarette is 'new'. Does their juristiction extend to the delivery device.

This whole thing is ludicrous in light of the fact that a delivery device for an ILLEGAL drug is commonly available and legal to but, the .... or indeed Crystal .... pipes (only recently made illegal in Aus). perhaps we should take heart that take away the juice and Nicotine and they cant ban the device. Then we will be cooking up our own more dangerous and unregulated ejuices and the will have made the whole situation a lot worse. Will they ever learn, hello prohibiting? boggles the mind

 

[rlorange]

Well Sun sounds like you have done a lot more research about the FDA than me. I guess the FDA is different to our TGA. In spite of what they can or can't do versus our TGA I still feel that they might no go that far... even if they can.

I am not aware of things that we can import here that you guys in the US can't (cuban cigars excluded LOL!) which are regulated by our FDA and TGA respectively generally there is very close consistency it will be interesting to see what happens. If a total ban by the FDA results in out TGA following like the lap dog it is then we are as screwed as you are.

On a lighter note, without sounding too 'airy faery' there has been a real shift away from the black-and-white hysterical mind-set of the Conservative forces, granted your conservatives in the US are far scarier and downright evil pro-active demon spawn, the new Democratic regime has instilled a sense of reason once more so maybe it is the right climate for the future of e somoking to look rosier.

True the Left-Socialist powers have stronger 'Nanny State' instincts but they also understand that things are rarely Black and White, they comprehenend the concept of 'Harm Minimisation' and they actually listen to the educated professionals who have credibility deciding if e-smoking should be banned or not. Surely the majority of doctors and health workers will eventually support it once proper testing prove it is safe and effective.

The Clean Air Zelots are not rational and will never think that e-smoking isd a good idea. Their damaged brains are simply incapable of understanding that their opinions of what other people do is NONE OF THEIR GOD-DAMN BUSINESS, if it not hurting them or their loved ones directly nor the people engaging in the activity then their reasons to object are personal or, GOD forbid 'Moral'. So then these people channel their energy into spinning lies and justifications supporting their Zelous mission...

Without getting sidetracked. I think this will work out one way or another simply because the general mind-set of the world has recoiled from this Irrational conservative mind-set, those hysterical shreiking voices have faded away along with the cranky old border-line-senile, white-male, sociopaths who have lost power their grip on world affairs.

 

[leaford]

I'm no lawyer but could a case be made that the FDA has no right to ban e-cigarette becasue their use is no different and indeed directly comparable to existing NRT available in the market. Nicotine is hardly a new and unapproved drug which the FDA needs to protect us from. Only the delivery device, the e-cigarette is 'new'. Does their juristiction extend to the delivery device.

Being similar to existing devices makes the approval process a little easier, but it doesn't bypass it, as far as I understand.