These people are going to kill themselves

[LDS714]

OK. But how is herding them through the system educating them?

In a society governed by those who care more about appearances than reality, just herding them through makes it look like the system is much less dysfunctional than it is. It should be up to the teachers to determine whether or not a student has met the requirements.

 

[Ed_C]

OK. But how is herding them through the system educating them?

In a society governed by those who care more about appearances than reality, just herding them through makes it look like the system is much less dysfunctional than it is. It should be up to the teachers to determine whether or not a student has met the requirements.

If you're responding to what I said, I'm not sure why you would think I would not agree with what you said here. I was just making the point that public school, where students are required to be there, may not wish to be there and may have parents that are not supportive is not the same as teaching students in a riding class, that are likely highly motivated and are not required to be there. Teachers deal with a wide range of students, with a wide range of abilities. Some classrooms have a high percentage of students with modified programs for a variety of reasons, some justified and some perhaps not so much. I see a kid that is smart and not motivated and another who is highly motivated with limited capabilities and I just wish I could switch their brains. I guess what I'm saying is, yes, just passing students from grade to grade is not what many teachers would promote as good practice, but with a classroom of unique students, there's no easy answers. Good teachers just want to motivate students and maximize their potentials.

 

[Racehorse]

At what point did you decide to let the salesperson ( who is paid to sell, not teach) becomes responsible for your safety?
Maybe he assumes you are smart enough to know what you are buying.

No matter how you try to spin it, you are responsible for your choices.

Ed already explained it well enough so I won't bother to do it again:

if you find plans to build a pipe bomb on the internet, build it without any more research and then blow your hand off, well maybe that's on you. On the other hand if you are new to vaping and you go into a store and say you have seen people blowing these big clouds and you would like to do the same, I think the store has some responsibility to inform you of what's involved.

 

[Bad Ninja]

Ed already explained it well enough so I won't bother to do it again:

No
The shop would simply ask the customer "what specifically would you like?"
When they realized the customer has no clue, then yes it would be the shops responsibility.

Ed set up a scenario where a shop would have to agree to the ćstomers terms.
Not the same and you know it.

No RBAs come with sub ohm coils.
You have to ask, and pay extra to get them.

Stop hiding from responsibility.
Your choices
Your reaponsibity.
Grow up.

 

[Ed_C]

So can I assume that you do extensive research concerning potential safety issues with each and every product that you purchase, Ninja?
What if the customer was an older person without the use of the internet for research? Perhaps you would think only the strong should survive and we'd be better off without them. As for your comment that we should "grow up", part of growing up is developing the ability to think about others and not just oneself.

As for your statement "Ed set up a scenario where a shop would have to agree to the ćstomers terms.
Not the same and you know it" I'm not even sure what you mean. If someone came into a shop and said that they "have seen people blowing these big clouds and [they] would like to do the same", it would be pretty clear to me that they might be in need of some basic instruction as to what is involved. Now if they said that they were fine and knew what they were doing, at that point it's on them. I guess it just comes to the fact that I'd rather live in a world where we watched each others back, than a world that's just dog eat dog. I think that's part of being civilized.

 

[chainvapor]

Any shop should not build anyone else coils. This should be done by the user. Selling the products and tools to make the coils is fine, but it is up to the individual to make their own. Unfortunately you have a lot of B&M shops popping up everywhere trying to get in on the new billion dollar+ market with no real experience for themselves. I have been vaping for 4 years. I just started to build sub-ohm coils after reading and watching videos on it for about a month. Any B&M that builds coils is just looking for a lawsuit!! I really wish they would stop, because anything bad that happens with ecigs is IMMEDIATELY publicized and used against the ecig industry!

CV

 

[Ohms Lawbreaker]

Trying to think of something similar, where you can take an electronic device to a small shop and have them rewire it for you ... maybe a small appliance shop is similar, but likely those guys really know what they're doing with electronics and are all licensed in some way. They aren't giving you back a sub-ohm toaster to stick your face into. Also good point about how much responsibility the shop owner has when selling these things. I would agree he shouldn't have much, for the sake of liberty and freedom, but retailers shouldn't be giving vapers poor or false information either, don't know how to fix that. Is all this how the sausages are made?

 

[Coelli]

I had a conversation with a friend on Facebook last night about vaping - neither of us had known the other did it.

I told him I love my Provari and build at about 1.1. He said "Meghan no!" and said he was at .4. I said I preferred to stick at a safer resistance on a device with built-in safety. His response:

"Is sub-ohm not safe?"

Turns out he's been building sub-ohm and had no idea there were any risks associated with it. Like, at all.

 

[Chawg]

Boy oh boy this is a tough one. On one hand I agree that it is the customers responsibility to know what he/she is getting into. You just don't jump into anything without doing research. Do I research every product I buy? Of course not. But when it comes to something that I am going to put in my body, absolutely. Except food. This fat boy will eat just about anything if it's fried, research be damned. On the other, and especially when it comes to vaping, I think the shop has to assume some responsibility in this situation. Building custom coils? Like another another person said...that's pushing it. I don't think it's wise to custom build coils for other people and if you do then you HAVE to take responsibility for the product that you put out there. It's the same for every other product.

Let me exaggerate to make a point. If Ford made cars that had a tendency to blow up after the first 100 miles they would HAVE to assume responsibility for their product. They'd be sued by countless people and having their customers sign a waiver isn't going to help them one bit. Not even if they tell the customer, "Okay, this is how you avoid blowing yourself up..."

If this guy goes and gets somebody's kid hurt, he's going to have to endure a legal storm like he wouldn't believe. His shop is likely to get shut down and rightfully so. A little bit of prudence would go a long way. Yes, I agree that you should educate yourself before you venture into anything new. But at the same time if you're building coils for people you are responsible for their performance.

Just my

 

[KSidwell]

Most people assume this. Not so.
People play dumb to avoid liability.
They know better.
Don't be dumb bough to fall for that act.

We all know that old lady knew that cup of coffe was hot.
She ordered it. It was not forced on her, or given by mistake.

She did not order iced tea.

She spilled it. An accident. Sux she was injured but it wasn't intentional.
Society today fears responsibity, so we play stupid and try to blame others.

Reality check:
Do you really believe the lady had no clue hot coffee would burn?

I think the issue lies more with the malfunctioning coffee maker that the comapny knew was malfunctioning that made the coffee far hotter than it ever should have been. That coffee made from malfunctioning equipment then burnt the lady WHO WAS NOT DRIVING, the car was parked and she was a passenger. It was so hot it burnt her skin off to bone in some places. The case has been horrible misrepresented and used to make points that are not actually valid in context of what actually happened.

 

[KSidwell]

I think this applies to situations like the somewhat slow "kid" (eighteen) that lives two blocks away from me. He went to a vape shop to buy his first set up. They sold him a mech and battery with an rba but he had no idea they could be dangerous. He bought them because the shop owner told him they looked cool. It was his first set up!!! The shop knew he had no experience but made no effort to teach him because he had a pocketful of cash. He didn't go in looking to sub ohm but was pushed in that direction by a shop who should have known better. Had we not known better and educated him he would have walked around completely unaware of any danger.

 

[Bad Ninja]

I think this applies to situations like the somewhat slow "kid" (eighteen) that lives two blocks away from me. He went to a vape shop to buy his first set up. They sold him a mech and battery with an rba but he had no idea they could be dangerous. He bought them because the shop owner told him they looked cool. It was his first set up!!! The shop knew he had no experience but made no effort to teach him because he had a pocketful of cash. He didn't go in looking to sub ohm but was pushed in that direction by a shop who should have known better. Had we not known better and educated him he would have walked around completely unaware of any danger.

Why do we have to change all the variables?
Now we have a mentally deficient person and a shady shop owner?
You know right from wrong.
Sounds like the parents shouldn't let your neighbor out without supervision.
All things equal, stop trying to place others responsible for your actions.

Adults are responsible for their own actions, no matter how you try to spin the scenario.

I'm amazed at some of the responses here.
People really don't want to be responsible for themselves anymore.

It's shameful.

 

[Coelli]

I think the issue lies more with the malfunctioning coffee maker that the comapny knew was malfunctioning that made the coffee far hotter than it ever should have been. That coffee made from malfunctioning equipment then burnt the lady WHO WAS NOT DRIVING, the car was parked and she was a passenger. It was so hot it burnt her skin off to bone in some places. The case has been horrible misrepresented and used to make points that are not actually valid in context of what actually happened.

Yes - exactly - if you'd ever seen the photos of the damage that coffee did to her (they can be found online) and knew the actual details of the case you'd never bring that up as an example of a frivolous liability case. Also, it was not malfunctioning; they deliberately kept the coffee something like 40 degrees above industry standard because customers asked for less refills and they saved money that way.

Anyone who has the stomach for it can google image search "mcdonald's hot coffee injury photos" - but don't say I didn't warn you.

 

[Ed_C]

No one is arguing anyone shouldn't have personal responsibility. We are just arguing that if you see someone that might be missing some important information concerning some safety issue, you might have some ethical and moral responsibility as a human being to point this out. It's like saying if you saw someone who was about to walk in front of a car that he didn't see, you shouldn't say anything because it's not your problem.

 

[Bad Ninja]

I give up Ninja. I beginning to think you must be a troll. No one is arguing anyone shouldn't have personal responsibility. We are just arguing that if you see someone that might be missing some important information concerning some safety issue, you might have some ethical and moral responsibility as a human being to point this out. It's like saying if you saw someone who was about to walk in front of a car that he didn't see, you shouldn't say anything because it's not your problem. If you can't understand this concept I don't know of any other way to explain it to you.

I'm a troll because I advocate being responsible ?
Wow.
Some of you have a lot to learn about how life works.

Legal liability has nothing to do with morality.
Insulting me simply shows a lack of ability to accept a different opinion.

Lastly, accepting responsibility for ones actions is a prime example of strong moral values.
Funny you see it the other way around.

 

[Ed_C]

A. Once again: "No one is arguing anyone shouldn't have personal responsibility."
B. I've never once mentioned legal liability, all I was commenting on was what I thought was the "right" thing for a shop to do. I'm very aware of how that world works, I just think it would be a better world if we looked out for each other a bit more. Even if we are vigilant in learning everything we can about any given topic, we all miss something at sometime and it would be nice to think that someone might have my back.
C. I apologize for my less than civil response. I will edit my post.
I might point out, however, that your comments that we should "grow up", are "shameful", "lazy" and should "top blaming others for your own mistakes" sounds like I'm not the only one who has a "lack of ability to accept a different opinion."

 

[zoiDman]

I'm a troll because I advocate being responsible ?
...

I don't think you are a Troll.

But I think that your Views are Extremely Black and White. And leave no Room for any Discussion of Any Middle Ground.

 

[jd1978]

Anytime a tool is given to enough people, eventually someone will think of something dumb to do with it, and inspire others to do even dumber things. It is solely the end users responsibility to make sure that they are using something in a safe manner.

 

[Ed_C]

Anytime a tool is given to enough people, eventually someone will think of something dumb to do with it, and inspire others to do even dumber things. It is solely the end users responsibility to make sure that they are using something in a safe manner.

...and I don't totally disagree with you. If you talking about creative ways to render something unsafe I would agree with you. But if you're talking about something that, under the course of normal use, can be made unsafe, I would think a warning would be in order. I just don't understand why someone would be opposed to that. Just because some of the warnings we find on products seem, over the top silly, that doesn't mean all warnings fall under that category.

 

[Stosh]

Anytime a tool is given to enough people, eventually someone will think of something dumb to do with it, and inspire others to do even dumber things. It is solely the end users responsibility to make sure that they are using something in a safe manner.

If this was realistic, all the personal injury lawyers that are riding around in Audi A8 and Jaguars, living in mansions would actually be on welfare. Don't think we'll see that anytime soon...