This is why I HATE e-cigs (warning: rant mode enabled)

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username1970

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May 14, 2012
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You don't think their price increase was due to the huge expenses the government laid onto them? Which makes more sense from a financial perspective when no tinfoil hat is being worn?


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Cigarettes were a little less than $1 a pack when I started smoking. I'm sure people older than me can chime in and say how they were only 25 cents a pack or maybe the retailer even paid you to buy cigarettes, but that's the starting point I'm going to use.

Today cigarettes (where I live) are $6-$7.50 per pack (last I checked and it's been at least a year). Imagine if gas had increased that much in price during that time. Anyway, now we pay $1.01 in federal tax and anywhere from 17 cents to $4.35 per pack depending on what state you buy your smokes in. Someone said cigs were $13 in NY. Is there a city tax that I'm neglecting? Because if not, that pack of cigarettes costs $7.64 before taxes are applied.

It's no wonder organized crime thrives in NYC. I'm shocked! Shocked I tell ya'.

I don't study tobacco company's finances enough to say how big a hit lawsuits have been for them and added to that fewer people are buying cigarettes every year, but I can't imagine that they are not still making money hand over fist. Yeah, I just looked up how Reynold's is doing. They're doing just fine. I wish I had invested in them. I mean other than investing by buying their products. They're mostly just ashes by now.

So what huge expenses is the government imposing exactly?

I mean other than the onerous taxes. Oddly enough, I'm not completely against sin taxes. As long as they're not oppressive and comparing the rise of taxes with the rise of cigarette prices I have a bigger issue with the tobacco companies than the government.

I know, I should stop buying cigarettes. I haven't bought any this year and I've only smoked one all year. It was from an emergency pack I kept in my car. It had probably been in there about 10 years through temperatures ranging from -10 to 120 and it was stale. It burned like a ......I dunno......like a really old stale dry cigarette.
 

beckdg

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C'mon you guys, username said right up front, before you even opened the thread, that it was a rant. Silly people, you opened it anyway, what were you thinking?

It also sounds like he (she?) is having problems because of the lack of WTAs, MOIAs or whatever. It's a real problem for some people. One of the few things I didn't have problems with but I bet you all were a bowl of cherries when you had to go without a smoke. I'll bet a box of premium crunchy treats username's demeanor changes once he finds what works for him (and they don't pull the rug out from under him again). Where's Andria and/or Rolygate when you need them?
Could be that or not enough nic, vapor and/or throat hit too.

I don't need wta for example. But i do vape 50mg juice @ .2 ohm. That's MY happy place.

It certainly does sound like hardware is a serious issue regardless.

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chargingcharlie

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Cigarettes were a little less than $1 a pack when I started smoking. I'm sure people older than me can chime in and say how they were only 25 cents a pack or maybe the retailer even paid you to buy cigarettes, but that's the starting point I'm going to use.

Today cigarettes (where I live) are $6-$7.50 per pack (last I checked and it's been at least a year). Imagine if gas had increased that much in price during that time. Anyway, now we pay $1.01 in federal tax and anywhere from 17 cents to $4.35 per pack depending on what state you buy your smokes in. Someone said cigs were $13 in NY. Is there a city tax that I'm neglecting? Because if not, that pack of cigarettes costs $7.64 before taxes are applied.

It's no wonder organized crime thrives in NYC. I'm shocked! Shocked I tell ya'.

I don't study tobacco company's finances enough to say how big a hit lawsuits have been for them and added to that fewer people are buying cigarettes every year, but I can't imagine that they are not still making money hand over fist. Yeah, I just looked up how Reynold's is doing. They're doing just fine. I wish I had invested in them. I mean other than investing by buying their products. They're mostly just ashes by now.

So what huge expenses is the government imposing exactly?

I mean other than the onerous taxes. Oddly enough, I'm not completely against sin taxes. As long as they're not oppressive and comparing the rise of taxes with the rise of cigarette prices I have a bigger issue with the tobacco companies than the government.

I know, I should stop buying cigarettes. I haven't bought any this year and I've only smoked one all year. It was from an emergency pack I kept in my car. It had probably been in there about 10 years through temperatures ranging from -10 to 120 and it was stale. It burned like a ......I dunno......like a really old stale dry cigarette.

I took this picture last month in NYC and sent it to my wife to show her how high she can expect a pack of smokes to cost in MA in the near future.

9fb919f877ca2a24aae938846d82a957.jpg


The rise is cost is due to multiple factors.

1- federal and state taxes imposed in the tobacco companies

2- federal and state taxes imposed in the tobacco purchasers

3- the loss of the right for tobacco companies to market their products

4- the government forcing the tobacco companies to pay billions to the states in a healthcare settlement

5- the government forcing the tobacco companies to fund smoking cessation research and programs

And the list goes on and on. Why doesn't the government force the alcohol companies to pay settlements to the victims of drunk drivers? Why doesn't the government force the alcohol companies to fund research, stop advertising, and fund programs that stear people away from their product? Ever think abou that? Here's more info...

The Original Participating Manufacturers (OPMs) agreed to several broad categories of conditions:

to restrict their advertising, sponsorship, lobbying, and litigation activities, particularly as those activities were seen as targeting youth;
to disband three specific "Tobacco-Related Organizations," and to restrict their creation and participation in trade associations;
generally to make available to the public documents the OPMs had disclosed during the discovery phase of their litigation with the settling states;
to create and fund the National Public Education Foundation, dedicated to reducing youth smoking and preventing diseases associated with smoking.[18]
to make annual payments to the settling states in perpetuity.
A section on enforcement gave jurisdiction to individual state courts to implement and enforce the term, and established a state enforcement fund ($50 million one-time payment). The participating manufacturers also paid the states' Attorney Fees.

Restrictions on youth targeting
Generally, the participating manufacturers agree not to "take any action, directly or indirectly, to target Youth within any Settling State in the advertising, promotion or marketing of Tobacco Products, or take any action the primary purpose of which is to initiate, maintain or increase the incidence of Youth smoking within any Settling State." (§III(a))

The restrictions specified included bans on outdoor billboards, advertising on transit vehicles, as well as restrictions on sports marketing, event sponsorships and promotional products.

Financial provisions
Receipts by the states
States were to receive over $206 billion over 25 years:

Up-front payments - $12.742 billion.
Annual Payments, beginning April 15, 2000 - $183.177 billion through 2025.
Strategic Contribution Fund, 2008-2017 - $8.61 billion.
National Foundation ($250 million over 10 years).
Public Education Fund (at least $1.45 billion 2000-2003).
State Enforcement Fund ($50 million, one-time payment).
National Association of Attorneys General ($1.5 billion over next 10 years).
Payments by the Participating Manufacturers (PMs)
The amount of money that the PMs are required to annually contribute to the states varies according to several factors. All payments are based primarily on the number of cigarettes sold.

For the OPMs (Original Participating Manufacturers), the payments are determined in accordance with their relative market share as of 1997. The payment amount of a particular OPM is also dictated by the "Volume Adjustment," which compares the number of cigarettes sold in each payment year to the number of cigarettes sold in 1997. If the number of cigarettes sold by an OPM in a given year is less than the number it sold in 1997, the Volume Adjustment allows that OPM to reduce its payment to the settling states. In other words, a reduction in the amount of cigarettes sold by the OPMs results in the settling states receiving less money.

The MSA sets forth specific amounts that the OPMs have agreed to pay the settling states each year. Those annual amounts are subject to a number of adjustments. The OPMs each pay a portion of the total annual payment according to each OPM's "Relative Market Share" for the preceding year.[18][19]

For the SPMs (Subsequent Participating Manufacturers), the payments are determined by their relative market share as compared to other SPMs. For the SPMs that joined the MSA within 90 days of its execution, the annual payments are determined by the number of cigarettes an SPM sells beyond the "grandfathered" volume—calculated as the higher of either the individual SPM's market share in 1998 (the year the MSA was executed) or 125% of the SPM's market share in 1997. If an SPM's sales volume or market share declines below the grandfathered amount, then it is not required to make any payments to the settling states. SPMs that failed to join the MSA within 90 days of its execution do not receive the benefit of any grandfathered amount.

Both exempt and non-exempt SPMs' annual payment obligations under the MSA are "calculated on the basis of the percentage of the four original participating manufacturers' total domestic market share represented by the SPM[s'] domestic market share . . . . In other words, the denominator in the calculation is the total OPM market share, not the total OPM and SPM market share."[20] Furthermore, the parties agree that the amount the SPMs pay per cigarette is roughly the same as the per-cigarette amount that the OPMs pay under the MSA. To the extent the amount differs, the OPMs pay slightly more than the SPMs on a per cigarette basis.[17]

Escrow account
The payments from all the PMs are deposited into an escrow account until disbursement to the settling states.

The MSA includes a model escrow (or qualifying) act and provides strong incentives for settling states to adopt it.[21] "[A] Qualifying Statute . . . is one that effectively and fully neutralizes the cost disadvantages that the Participating Manufacturers experience vis-a-vis Nonparticipating Manufacturers within the state."[22]

The MSA encouraged settling states to adopt the model escrow act by providing that a settling state's allocated payment—that is, the portion of the annual MSA payment that a particular state receives in a given year—could be reduced by applying a non-participating manufacturers ("NPM") adjustment. That adjustment lowers a state's allocated share of the annual MSA payment if the OPMs lose market share to NPMs and if "a nationally recognized firm of economic consultants" determines that the MSA was "a significant factor contributing to the Market Share Loss for the year in question." The NPM adjustment does not apply to any state that has enacted and has in "full force and effect" a "qualifying" or model escrow statute. All settling states have enacted qualifying statutes.[23]

The escrow statute is premised on the legislative finding that, in light of the MSA settling the states' claims against the major cigarette manufacturers, t would be contrary to the policy of the State if tobacco product manufacturers who determine not to enter into such a settlement could use a resulting cost advantage to derive large, short-term profits in the years before liability may arise without ensuring that the State will have an eventual source of recovery from them if they are proven to have acted culpably. It is thus in the interest of the State to require that such manufacturers establish a reserve fund to guarantee a source of compensation and to prevent such manufacturers from deriving large, short-term profits and then becoming judgment-proof before liability may arise.[24][25]

In light of that, the model escrow statute requires an NPM selling cigarettes in [*1122] a given state to do one of two things: 1) join the MSA, agreeing to "become a participating manufacturer (as that term is defined in section II(jj) of the [MSA]) and generally perform its financial obligations under the [MSA]," or 2) make similar annual payments into the state's escrow fund.[26] An NPM's annual escrow payments in a particular state are calculated by multiplying a per-cigarette amount, established by the state's legislature and set forth in the statute, by the number of cigarettes the NPM sold in that state in the year for which payment is being made.[27] The parties agree that this per-cigarette amount is roughly equivalent to the per-cigarette amount the MSA requires from OPMs and SPMs for sales which are not exempt. To the extent it differs, the OPMs pay slightly more than the SPMs, which pay slightly more than the NPMs.[28]

The escrow statute specifically requires that the NPM place into a qualified escrow fund by April 15 of the year following the year in question the following amounts (as such amounts are adjusted for inflation)—

(A) 1999: $.0094241 per unit sold after the effective date of this act;
(B) 2000: $.0104712 per unit sold;
(C) for each of 2001 and 2002: $.0136125 per unit sold;
(D) for each of 2003 through 2006: $.0167539 per unit sold;
(E) for each of 2007 and each year thereafter: $.0188482 per unit sold.[29]
Allocable share
Each state receives a payment equal to its "Allocable Share," a percentage of the funds held in escrow that has been agreed upon by the settling states and memorialized in the MSA. This "Allocable Share" (as measured by a percentage of the total funds in escrow) does not vary according to how many cigarettes are sold in a particular state in a given year.

During the drafting of the MSA, the OPMs and the settling states contemplated that many of the smaller tobacco companies would choose not to join the MSA. This failure to join posed a potential problem for both the OPMs and the settling states. The OPMs worried that the NPMs, both because they would not be bound by the advertising and other restrictions in the MSA and because they would not be required to make payments to the settling states, would be able to charge lower prices for their cigarettes and thus increase their market share.

NPMs
Although the settling states' motivation was different from that of the OPMs, these states also were concerned about the effect of the tobacco companies that refused to join the MSA. The settling states worried that the NPMs would be able to regulate their sales so as to stay afloat financially while at the same time being effectively judgment-proof. As a result of these twin concerns, the OPMs and the settling states sought to have the MSA provide these other tobacco companies with incentives to join the agreement.

One such incentive, called the NPM Adjustment, provides that the payments by the PMs to the settling states may be adjusted according to the "NPM Adjustment Percentage." According to this provision, if a nationally recognized firm of economic consultants determines that the PMs have lost market share as a result of compliance with the MSA, the PMs' required payments to the settling states will be reduced to account for the loss. The NPM Adjustment therefore gives the settling states an incentive to protect the market dominance of the PMs, because [*551] otherwise the settling states themselves will receive less funds. The MSA also provides a safe harbor from the NPM Adjustment if a settling state "diligently enforces" the provision of a Model Statute atached to the MSA and enacted by all of the settling states.

Most of the settling states have also voluntarilly adopted "complementary" legislation to provide additional enforcement tools to compel compliance with the Model Statute.

Allocable Share Release Repeal
The original escrow statutes provided that NPM payments would remain in escrow for 25 years, but authorized an early release of any escrow amount which was greater than the allocable share which that state would have received if the NPM had been an SPM.[30] The originally enacted escrow statutes permitted an NPM to obtain a refund of the amount the NPM paid into the escrow fund to the extent that a tobacco product manufacturer establishes that the amount it was required to place into escrow in a particular year was greater than the State's allocable share of the total payments that such manufacturer would have been required to make in that year under the [MSA] . . . had it been a participating manufacturer.[31] This "Allocable Share Release Provision" was intended to create substantial equivalence between the escrow obligation of NPMs under the escrow statutes and the amounts the NPMs would have paid if they had they joined the MSA.[32]

The settling states agreed to divide the annual MSA payment among themselves according to each state's preset allocable share, rather than according to the volume of sales made in a particular state in a given year.[33] An NPM's payments into a state's escrow fund, on the other hand, were dependent on the number of cigarettes that the NPM sold in that state in a given year. Nevertheless, the originally enacted escrow statute based any refund of those escrowed funds payments on that state's allocable share of the national MSA payment. This refund provision, then, assumed an NPM would sell its cigarettes nationally.[34][35]

If an NPM made the bulk of its sales in a few states, however, it could obtain a refund of those escrow payments in excess of what it would have paid each of those States had it been an SPM. For example, an NPM which made 50 per cent of its sales in Kansas (which has a relatively low allocable share) would obtain a release from its Kansas escrow fund of more than 49 per cent of its full escrow payment. In other words, the original allocable share release provision created an unintended loophole: it only operated as intended if the NPMs distributed their products nationally. In that circumstance, the NPMs' total escrow obligations to all states with similar tobacco statutes approximately totaled the payments those NPMs would have made under the MSA. If an NPM concentrated its sales in a few state with low allocable share percentages, however, the NPM could obtain a refund of much of its escrow payments. Because the Kansas percentage was so low—roughly 0.8 per cent—NPMs concentrated their sales within Kansas and a few other states to receive immediate escrow refunds from those states.

Rather than selling cigarettes nationally, several NPMs instead concentrated their sales in just a few states. Because the originally enacted escrow statute refunded escrow funds to the extent those funds exceeded each state's "allocable share" of the national MSA payment, NPMs were able to obtain refunds of most of the monies they had paid into a state's escrow fund. To illustrate, if an NPM only sold cigarettes in Kansas in 2006, the Kansas escrow statute would require that NPM to pay into the Kansas escrow fund $.0167539 for each cigarette the NPM sold in that state.[36] Pursuant to the refund provision in the originally enacted Kansas escrow statute, however, the NPM could obtain a refund of all but .8336712% of those payments.

One commentator further explains that the calculations under the [originally enacted escrow] statutes were based on an assumption that a nonparticipating manufacturer sold cigarettes nationally. When this was the case, the statutes functioned as intended, permitting the NPM to obtain a refund of excess amounts placed in escrow in each state. However, when an NPM followed a regional sales strategy, as several did, the original escrow statutes allowed the NPM to obtain a refund that was much larger than intended.[37]

To close this loophole, in late 2002, the National Association of Attorneys General ("NAAG") introduced the Allocable Share Release Repealer ("ASR Repealer"), a model statute which eliminated the ASR. In a memo dated September 12, 2003, Attorney General William H. Sorrell of Vermont, Chairman of the NAAG Tobacco Project, underscored the urgency of "all States taking steps to deal with the proliferation of NPM sales, including enactment of complementary legislation and allocable share legislation and consideration of other measures designed to serve the interests of the States in avoiding reductions in tobacco settlement payments." He stressed that "NPM sales anywhere in the country hurt all States," that NPM sales in any state reduce payments to every other State," and that "[a]ll States have an interest in reducing NPM sales in every State."[38]

The "Allocable Share Release Repeal" ("ASR Repeal") revised the originally enacted escrow statute's refund calculation to remove the reference to the enacting state's "allocable share" of the annual MSA payments. HN2The amended statute, therefore, now provides that an NPM will be entitled to a refund[t]o the extent that a tobacco product manufacturer establishes that the amount it was required to place into escrow, based on units sold in the state . . . in a particular year, was greater than the [MSA] payments, as determined pursuant to section IX(i) of that agreement including, after final determination of all adjustments, that such manufacturer would have been required to make based on such units sold had it been a participating manufacturer, the excess shall be released from escrow and revert to such tobacco product manufacturer.[39]

Thus, an NPM still has to pay annually into a state's escrow fund an amount calculated by multiplying the number of cigarettes the NPM sells in that state during the year in question by the same per-cigarette amount for that year as set forth in the state's escrow statute. The NPM can obtain a refund to the extent those escrowed funds are greater than the amount that the NPM would have had to pay under the MSA for that same year, based upon that same number of cigarettes sold.



http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tobacco_Master_Settlement_Agreement


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Building tanks and coils myself seems like too much work. I'm sure it's easy once you know what you're doing, but I'd rather disengage myself from the process and just enjoy the benefits.

As for things not being easy, some things should be easy. If you want to spend your time becoming an expert DIY vapor(?) more power to you. I just want it to be convenient - and cheap.

That's like saying you want to drive a car for free, without either doing the maintenance yourself, or paying someone else to do it. You can disengage yourself from the maintenance of it and be a pure consumer...but it's gonna cost you, cause you're paying someone else to do it for you. You can enjoy the results you want for minimal expense...but you're going to have to put some effort into it. And that's not just vapes and cars...that's pretty much everything in life. Either learn to do without, learn to do it yourself, or learn to pay someone else to do it for you. I havent yet discovered some mystical fourth option.
 

Rotowoman

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Sep 27, 2014
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You know, OP, I can relate to your rant. I did one myself a few days ago. You're just a lot more verbose than I was. :D I was in a spot experiencing frustration with my equipment, etc, etc, etc. BUT, in the end run of things, I do NOT want to smoke anymore. I just don't. In spite of my frustration, I am pushing on, learning new things here and I'm just an ornery cuss and refuse to give up. Besides, there's a boatload of great people here who will help you, if you let them.
 

Lessifer

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My wife still smokes, despite my best efforts. Here in CA a pack of Camels costs ~$5, compared to about $2.50 when I first started 20 years ago. So, while BT may have raised their prices, I think it's fairly in line with other consumer goods over the years. The big difference is the taxes imposed by the federal government and state and local governments. I don't think the tobacco companies' share of the price is different between CA and NY.
 

Rizzyking

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Op if your after simplicity it doesn't get easier then a MVP 2 or 3 if you can wait it's release is soon and an aspire nautilus tank with bvc heads fill it with juice adjust the power to suit and your done simplest setup there is. When I started the idea of coils and stuff looked way too hard and I never thought I'd be doing it but the longer I vaped and the more I tried friends setups the more I realised that if I truly wanted a vape that suited me individually it was the way to go. This forum is a fantastic resource and will help you every step of the way in anything vape related. It's your decision how you progress all I can do is tell you that vaping will give you back what you put into it if you put in little sadly your likely to get little back. It really isn't as hard or time consuming to get into recoiling yourself maybe 3 or 4 films worth of time will get you where you need to be. Whatever choice you make I wish you luck and hope you find a better place then where your at now.
 

WharfRat1976

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May 31, 2014
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First off, I spent a lot of money trying different ones. They all sucked. NONE of them hit like a real cigarette. There is no satisfaction from an e-cig.


But I'm sick enough of real cigarettes that I finally settle on a particular brand. Okay, these are alright I thought. I can get by with these I thought. They're not great, but whatever. And then BAM! All of a sudden they're out of stock of their only clearomizers that are worth a crap. And I mean they've been out for MONTHS!


I order stuff online, wait a few days and then when it finally comes, it's the wrong stuff. These clearomizers don't even fit or this isn't what I ordered happens way too often.


I used to hate my weekly pilgrimage to the 7-11 to buy a carton of cigarettes, but this is turning out to be worse. With real cigarettes, at least I knew what I was getting and the product was consistent and I NEVER had to worry about getting more. There was no messing around with chargers. All you need is a cigarette and a source of flame. Setting things on fire is easy.


Since my e-cig of choice is (according to them) only able to supply at the whim of some factory in China I have a table littered with used clearomizers - just in case I can't get a new one, maybe I can get by with a used one I already decided was pretty much dead.


So when I was out earlier today, I ALMOST bought a pack of cigarettes. Really, all I need is a pack of cigarettes, an empty beer bottle to put the ashes and a few matches. What could be simpler?


But no, now I've got chargers. I've got batteries and clearomizers and bottles of nicotine juice cluttering up the place.


And while e-cigs are cheaper, you get what you pay for and in my experience everything is a gamble. I read reviews here and considered a few different e-cigs. Then I shelled out somewhere around $100 only to find out it was a piece of junk (I'm trying not to use profanity here). Money completely wasted. I'd have been better off grinding it up and rolling it into a cigarette.


But I didn't buy real cigarettes. Instead I bought a Vuse. It tastes horrible, but I got a free one a while back and I know it delivers somewhat consistently until it's dead. It's not overly heavy. It's not clumsy to pick up between 2 fingers. I'm not shilling for them though. I absolutely detest the fact that I was driven to buy one.


At least with a cigarette you knew when you were done. There's a certain feeling you get as you take that first drag off a real cigarette just as you get it lit. There's a different feeling as you finish it and snuff it out in an ashtray or flick it away (please do NOT litter!). It's just satisfying. Sometimes it's even better than sex.


With e-cigs, it's just always sort of burning in the ashtray. Unless the battery is dead or the clearomizer is empty or just too used up. There's no climax. That's another thing I hate. If my e-cig isn't hitting well, I don't immediately know what's wrong. It could be a few things, a couple of which don't just work or not work but instead go from working okay to not working at all, but gradually.


And I get annoyed at the e-cig zealots. I know this is probably going to step on some toes here, but this is how I honestly feel. Whenever e-cigs come up on forums around the internet there are always a handful of zealots. They post pictures of their ridiculous looking "mods". Okay, admittedly some of them are cool looking, but why bother? They're also the ones who claim that "it's just water vapor". Yeah, right. What's in the flavoring? Who makes sure they don't use lead and mercury as flavoring? No one, that's who.


Sure, e-cigs are probably much safer than conventional cigarettes, but that's just a feeling I have not supported by any scientific evidence. At least with REAL cigarettes there was no question about whether or not we were breathing in toxins.


I see e-cigs as a nicotine delivery system. I know some people just vape for the flavor and don't have any nicotine in what they're vaping, but I really wonder about them. Are they just trying to look cool? Are they hipsters? Are they the type of people who used to carry around Tic Tacs?


And now I'm worried about vaping in public. And I'm not sure I'm allowed to say why here.
Sounds like RJR has found a new chemical to put into their analogs. the addiction is so strong. The addiction is so powerful. G/L.
 

username1970

Full Member
May 14, 2012
52
33
USA
I had a really great post all composed and then my browser ate it.

So, I'll try to summarize it. I don't think government accounts for as much as people think. From someone else's post: (E) for each of 2007 and each year thereafter: $.0188482 per unit sold.[29] So, what. Not even 2 cents per unit? I assume a unit is a pack, but even if it's a cigarette that still doesn't add up to most of the cost of a pack of cigarettes.

I don't even object to "sin taxes" so long as they're not onerous. The only question is what is onerous? 2 cents per pack? Or even 2 cents per cigarette? That's not really so bad. Add in state and local taxes? Okay, that adds another dime for me. (not even that, but I'm rounding up). I feel that, but it's not really that painful.

That's like saying you want to drive a car for free, without either doing the maintenance yourself, or paying someone else to do it. You can disengage yourself from the maintenance of it and be a pure consumer...but it's gonna cost you, cause you're paying someone else to do it for you. You can enjoy the results you want for minimal expense...but you're going to have to put some effort into it. And that's not just vapes and cars...that's pretty much everything in life. Either learn to do without, learn to do it yourself, or learn to pay someone else to do it for you. I havent yet discovered some mystical fourth option.

Your analogy fails. I've taken my car to get the oil changed once this year. It took about 15 minutes and though the price was a bit high IMO, it was well worth it. That's the only maintenance (other than filling up with gas) I've done to my car all year. (It doesn't get a whole lot of miles put on it, so it's not unreasonable that the oil has only been changed once this year). I've put on a spare tire more times than I would have liked and I've changed the battery out (not easy on my car) and changed the brakes and a few lights, but certain things I'd just prefer to let other people do.

I don't think I complained about the cost of e-cigs. They're way cheaper than regular cigarettes. There's also a fair amount of competition from what I can tell and that's good. It leads to more innovation and lower prices overall. Big Tobacco is an oligopoly with Altria (Marlboro, et al.) comprising over 45% of the market (in the US anyway). Reynolds (Camel, et al.) takes up almost another quarter of the US market and 3 others are hanging on for dear life. I'm not saying that Altria and Reynolds are colluding to fix prices.....No, wait. That's exactly what I'm saying.
 

chiliphil1

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Sep 17, 2014
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139
Barnesville, ga
Op if your after simplicity it doesn't get easier then a MVP 2 or 3 if you can wait it's release is soon and an aspire nautilus tank with bvc heads fill it with juice adjust the power to suit and your done simplest setup there is.

This is exactly what I was going to say. Adjustable power, adjustable air flow, and NO coils to build!

I think the issue may be that you are using "e-cig" cartos, the ones that look like a cigarette (impression that I got) trust me, if you want to really get a good hit and be able to make the switch you need a good set up, the cheap ones are just not going to do it. As above the aspire nautilus tank is amazing paired with the inokin mvp2 mod you have a power house capable of doing jus about anything you need it to.. Best of luck.
 

chargingcharlie

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MA
I don't even object to "sin taxes" so long as they're not onerous. The only question is what is onerous? 2 cents per pack? Or even 2 cents per cigarette? That's not really so bad. Add in state and local taxes? Okay, that adds another dime for me. (not even that, but I'm rounding up). I feel that, but it's not really that painful.

Did you see the photo I posted? Do you think BT just charges more for smokes to NYC and MA? Most of what you pay for cigarettes is taxes in a lot of states and cities. When I was in the military in the mid 90's I used to be able to buy a carton of Newports for $11.00 at the commissary. My wife pays right around $9/pack for Pall Malls in MA right now. I asked the woman at the store down the road what a carton of Newports costs last week and she said it was around $100. As of August 1st of last year, the cigarette tax in MA has been $3.51 per pack. Where are you getting your numbers from?


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username1970

Full Member
May 14, 2012
52
33
USA
Did you see the photo I posted? Do you think BT just charges more for smokes to NYC and MA? Most of what you pay for cigarettes is taxes in a lot of states and cities. When I was in the military in the mid 90's I used to be able to buy a carton of Newports for $11.00 at the commissary. My wife pays right around $9/pack for Pall Malls in MA right now. I asked the woman at the store down the road what a carton of Newports costs last week and she said it was around $100. As of August 1st of last year, the cigarette tax in MA has been $3.51 per pack. Where are you getting your numbers from?


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Well, it says you're in MA, which I assume is Massachusetts which has the 2nd highest state tax on cigs. Second only to NY and 4 of the top 5 highest state taxes on tobacco are in the Northeast. I'm not surprised Hawaii takes the 5th spot. Everything is expensive there because it's an island in the middle of nowhere. Nice place so I've heard though.

I saw the picture. $13.50 per pack? That's insane! Really, it is, but people in NYC at least pay more for everything. With any luck they get paid more too.

Still, the state tax for a pack of smokes in NY is still only $4.35. Add in the federal tax and it makes it $5.36. Does NYC add in even more taxes? I don't know, but it still looks to me like the tobacco companies are raking the cash in....and fueling the underground black market for smuggled cigarettes from other states.
 

chargingcharlie

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Nov 14, 2014
431
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MA
Well, it says you're in MA, which I assume is Massachusetts which has the 2nd highest state tax on cigs. Second only to NY and 4 of the top 5 highest state taxes on tobacco are in the Northeast. I'm not surprised Hawaii takes the 5th spot. Everything is expensive there because it's an island in the middle of nowhere. Nice place so I've heard though.

I saw the picture. $13.50 per pack? That's insane! Really, it is, but people in NYC at least pay more for everything. With any luck they get paid more too.

Still, the state tax for a pack of smokes in NY is still only $4.35. Add in the federal tax and it makes it $5.36. Does NYC add in even more taxes? I don't know, but it still looks to me like the tobacco companies are raking the cash in....and fueling the underground black market for smuggled cigarettes from other states.

NYC adds an additional $1.50 per pack. You really think that BT is the big money maker here? The Govt is the real money maker...they don't have to put a penny into the manufacturing or distribution. Our govt is far worse than BT in my opinion.


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Debadoo

ECF Guru
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May 18, 2012
18,048
133,962
Texas, near Fort Hood
OP, I would strongly urge you to try aspire bdc's. They run about 7.00-8.00 or so. They look just like the vivi novas, and are just as simple to use. Rarely will you ever have an issue with these. I've used them for 6-8 months or so, had one leak once, and that was when I laid it on it's side. The atomizer heads are about 2.50 and last a week or more. Get them from a reliable vendor, not the cheapest place you can find or you may find yourself getting duds. The atomizer screws into the bottom piece. Turn it upside down, unscrew the bottom piece, fill with juice, replace the bottom, take a couple dry hits to remove any bubbles, and voila! They really give great flavor and are 99.9% problem and error free.
Nothing is going to be exactly like a cig, but if you can get past that, get the right nic level and the right flavors, you just may end up loving vaping. If you're using tobacco flavors, you may want to try other ones. I prefer light fruity flavors. Things I love to eat, like bakery goods particularly with cinnamon, I detest vaping! It seems like you really really don't want to smoke, so good luck to you
 

Krashman Von Stinkputin

Super Member
ECF Veteran
Dec 31, 2013
447
871
Missouri
If it's that unsatisfying and difficult for you, then smoke for crying out loud.

If you truly don't want to smoke cigarettes and truly want to quit--that change in behavior is going to require a change in mental and physical perception.
Vaping is not smoking--don't expect it to be.

Unless you live in a cave somewhere...pick a clearomizer that is also available at a local B&M. Maybe you can even test a device combo before you buy.
They usually all have "cigarette flavors" (Humps, Sahara, Cowboy,Western,etc)--which BTW have gotten much better at capturing that (ahem) "flavor"
Try dual using your cigs and ecigs and wean yourself off the smokes til you get used to how satisfying vaping can be.

And complaining about chargers/cables????
Guess you're one of the lucky ones who doesn't own dozens of now defunct/obsolete electronic devices accumulated over the last 20 or so years.
I've got a drawer full of nothing but chargers, cables, power supplies--you got a hole, I got a cable to fill it with.
 
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