Tobacco Companies are Scaring Doctors

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rzil

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Savvy and able horse-drawn carriage and buggy-whip makers adapted to a growing automobile market scavenging their sales in the early 20th century by investing in the makers of the automobiles and/or becoming subcontractors for automobile components.

US auto companies answered the call of the US government at the advent of WWII and dramatically boosted their revenues by adapting (retooling) their factories to produce tanks and other military vehicles and equipment.

US auto companies adapted to a fast-growing influx of Japanese compact cars scavenging their sales in the 1970s by building and selling their own compact models.

Soft drink companies adapted to a fast-growing bottled water market scavenging their sales in the 1990s by offering their own bottled water brands. (Aquafina, Dasani, etc.)

Soft drink companies adapted to a fast-growing energy drink market scavenging their sales around the turn of the 21st century by offering their own energy drink brands. (Burn, Amp, etc.)

Big tobacco companies will adapt to a fast-growing e-cigarette industry scavenging their revenues in the early 21st century by creating and/or rebranding e-cig products to sell under their own brands, or under new brand names they will create.

This is why they haven't crushed e-cigs long before now. They're not stupid. And they're not incapable. They've been watching the e-cig industry very closely since its inception. They have billions of dollars and huge political clout which they could have used much more effectively than they have so far to abort vaping before many of us would have ever even heard of it.

Regardless of what they've been feeding the government and media, they know very well that e-liquid is mostly (if not completely) harmless, and therefore that a significant percentage of the public will eventually come to know the same. I guarantee you that they've been buying e-juices and breaking them down in their own laboratories for several years to determine exactly what's in them. Or rather, to confirm what most e-juice vendors advertise openly regarding ingredients.

I'm sure tobacco companies have been testing vaping products in their own secret focus groups to determine their effectiveness as a smoking cessation method. Take 100 smokers and record what they smoke and how many per day. Give them various vaping products to try out. Each week, record how many people are smoking less, and how many have quit entirely.

I guarantee you anything we know about vaping, they know about vaping. I believe they've let it grow just as it has so far, and have only used a small percentage of their power to push for regulations, more for market control than market reduction. Are they setting up to do what Coca-Cola and Pepsi and Ford and GM have done by adapting to new markets rather than destroying them? You better believe it.

In 20-30 years, us early adopters will still be using our VAMOs and Sigeleis and Stingrays and Protanks and Nautiluses and RDAs (rebuilt and restored as necessary if they've become unavailable) while the late adopters will be using Philip-Morris and Imperial and RJ Reynolds and British American brands of e-cigs. And I feel certain that they will not stop at cigalikes, but will also (sooner or later) offer tank systems once they see fit to join that aspect of the industry.

I doubt they'll get into the mech/RDA market, since it will be considerably smaller than the rest of the vaping market, making it much less profitable for them to offset the costs of adapting to it. What we call "dripping" will, therefore, continue to be served by existing product brands. As long as the subset of drippers is small enough to not encroach too much into big tobacco's respective sections of the e-cig market, I don't think they'll try to quash it either. It'll remain as a cult/hobbyist realm.

Big Tobacco has been losing sales significantly for over thirty years, ever since anti-smoking PSAs and big lawsuits began eating away at their revenues. I think they'll come around to welcome a new way to make money once they've developed and tested their strategies for doing so.

They will not kill what they can join and profit from.

So there's my stab at vaping futurism. :) (Adapted a bit from my previous positions after putting more thought into it recently.)

Great analysis yet I'm still not convinced that their agenda is to control ecig industry rather than shutting it down completely .
The thing is that even if tobacco companies will get most of the industry revenue , it's still nothing compared to their tobacco profit , mostly because e-liquids are so easy to make so many people use DIY juices .
 

stevegmu

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I'm wondering if Big Tobacco can actually accomplish that without the help of the FDA. The biggest step would be to impose import restrictions on China. Then they could scoop up the remaining US manufacturers and have the FDA "regulate" the few stragglers out of business.

Certainly not all juice makers use PRC extracted nicotine. The largest- Halo, doesn't. Not a big juice maker, but one of my favorites- ProVape, also doesn't use PRC nicotine...
 

CKCalmer

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Good stuff. :thumb:

"Just when you thought smoking was dead, e-cigarettes have breathed life into a business that had all but given up on its future. Euromonitor predicts that 4% of the global smoking market will be smoking e-cigarettes by 2050."

If they're using e-cigs, then they're not smoking. :blink: Pah! I give up. :facepalm:

And I contend that Euromonitor has that prediction wayyy too far out. We'll hit 4% by 2020 easily. By 2050, the 90% of ex-smokers who use e-cigs will be using their considerable voting muscle to have cigarettes banned outright. And within just a few more years after that, they'll (we'll) win.

Cigarettes will be the fodder of stories, history books and a ubiquitous black market. After scoping for cops, twitchy "cigheads" will be quietly hitting up shady street dealers for cartons of Pall Malls. :smokie:

When does anyone here think we'll see vaping appear in a movie? Before 2014's out? 2015? (Or have we already, in something I haven't seen yet...?)

And think of the merchandising possibilities that haven't even been invented yet. In consumer products, the street rules. When it becomes cool for the 20- and 30-somethings to use this vaping rig or that vaping rig...

And when we arrive in the future, we might not even have the terms "e-cigs" or "vaping" anymore. It might have some new, catchier, bumperstickerable, storewindowable name. Something that a former Nike marketing exec thinks up, maybe.

Mark my words... When enough people learn that vaping is hugely safer than smoking, and can look cooler than smoking1, the world of affordable fashion and big budget movies will grab vaping and call it its own.


1 - Yes, vaping can look much cooler than smoking. Pick up your vape and ponder it a moment. The possibilities for striking a pose are far more extensive than they ever were with smoking. If, for no other reason, IT'S NOT ON FIRE, so you can touch it to anything, put it in a little jacket holster, lay it on the table in front of you without having to put it in a nasty, stinky ashtray, and so on.
 
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wv2win

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Hangsen E-liquid, from China, is one of the two largest manufacturers of e-liquid in the world. I know of few American e-liquid suppliers that provide a list of ingredients. From their web site, ingredients in their e-liquid:

FAQs from Changning Hangsen Biotechnology Co., Ltd.

1. Is the ingredient diacetyl and diethylene glycol (DEG) used in your liquids?
Answer:

No. There is not diacetyl and diethylene glycol in our liquids Specifically, the concern is with Diacetyl. Diacetyl is sometimes used to add a buttery flavor to foods or e-liquids, but has been proven to cause health problems in some cases.

2. What does Hangsen e liquid contain and what safety standard?
Answer:

Safety Standard :

GMP , HACCP , ISO , KFDA ,SGS MSDS
formular :

1# Propylene Glycol ( Dow Chemical) , Nicotine, flavors
2# Polyethylene glycol (PEG 400) ( Dow Chemical), Nicotine, flavors
3# Vegetable Glycerin( Dow Chemical), Nicotine, flavors
All ingredients meet USP , see our SGS report

3. What are the ingredients in Hangsen e liquid?
Answer:

Ingredients contain:

Propylene Glycol 74%, Vanilla Extract 11%, Malic acid 3%, 3-Methylcyclopentane-1, 2-dione 2.5% ,Piperonal 1.5% ,Damascenone 0.2% ,Acetylpyrazine 1%,Rose oil 1.5% ,Rhodinol 0.3% ,Eleutheroside E1 5%

4. What's the highest mg Nicotine Dosage ?
Answer:

The highest nicotine level we offer is 26mg.
The common strength of our nicotine available:
1)High 24mg, Med 16mg, Low 11mg and None 0mg. for Tobacco series.
2)High 16mg, Med 11mg, Low 6mg, None: 0mg. for fruit, food, beverage series.
Of course, other nicotine level can be made depend on customers requirements.
 
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CKCalmer

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Nevertheless, I welcome some control over the quality of the e-liquids. E-liquid should be protected, not prohibited.
I completely agree. It's chemicals that we ingest. I know I'll be more comfortable when there are guarantees in place to keep me from having to wonder if someone put some new un-tested chemical in some new flavor of e-juice that'll make me stop breathing in 20 seconds.
 

wv2win

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I completely agree. It's chemicals that we ingest. I know I'll be more comfortable when there are guarantees in place to keep me from having to wonder if someone put some new un-tested chemical in some new flavor of e-juice that'll make me stop breathing in 20 seconds.

If the only regulations being proposed were ones that followed food safety regulations, we would probably have little concern. Unfortunately that is not the intent of the FDA.
 

CKCalmer

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Hello, CKCalmer. :) Am really enjoying your posts; and now that you've covered Big Tobacco, how 'bout forseeing the path of Big Pharma and the health organizations which stand to lose hugely......Maybe even more than tobacco! :D
Thanks. :)

Big pharma is hugely more complex for me than big tobacco is, at least on its face. I may try someday, though.

If the only regulations being proposed were ones that followed food safety regulations, we would probably have little concern. Unfortunately that is not the intent of the FDA.
I agree. I wish there was a way to really know what the FDA is communicating to physicians, pharmacies and pharmaceutical companies regarding vaping products and how they're doing it. Maybe I should reach out to my second ex-wife. She was an ER tech, and probably a PA by now. We parted on good terms, and she might just have some insight on that front.

Anyway - I still feel confident that, along their path of tinkering in markets in ways that they shouldn't, they'll eventually throw out some boilerplate labeling rules for e-liquids.

"Maybe we should do something logical and useful every now and then while we're giving the Giant Royal Screw to anyone who can't top our nine-figure lobbying influx. It'll keep the peasants docile."
 
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Vermiform

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BT: "You have to make the stores drop those other brands of e-juice."
Regulator: "Why? Theirs should have the same ingredients as yours. In fact, wait... theirs have 5 ingredients, while yours has 300. What the hell did you pu...."
BT: "Never mind. Never mind."

Fixed it for you:

BT: "Yeah, uh... we want to offer you a job starting with a 300K annual salary. Also, here's the key to a hotel room full of 'massage therapists'. Also, we have pictures of you getting a 'massage" from some underage 'therapists'. "
Regulator: "Holy sh....."
BT: "Yeah, do us a little favor before you resign. Bomb our competitors products into oblivion and leave the back channels open in case we need help from the FDA again in the future. By the way, do you know if any of your coworkers like 'massages'?"
 

CKCalmer

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BT: "You have to make the stores drop those other brands of e-juice."
Regulator: "Why? Theirs should have the same ingredients as yours. In fact, wait... theirs have 5 ingredients, while yours has 300. What the hell did you pu...."
BT: "Never mind. Never mind."
Fixed it for you:

BT: "Yeah, uh... we want to offer you a job starting with a 300K annual salary. Also, here's the key to a hotel room full of 'massage therapists'. Also, we have pictures of you getting a 'massage" from some underage 'therapists'. "
Regulator: "Holy sh....."
BT: "Yeah, do us a little favor before you resign. Bomb our competitors products into oblivion and leave the back channels open in case we need help from the FDA again in the future. By the way, do you know if any of your coworkers like 'massages'?"
^ Classic! :lol:
 
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CKCalmer

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Apparently, Johnny Depp had one in The Tourist (2010).
Ah, OK. That would explain why I haven't seen vaping in a movie yet. I tried to watch the Tourist. After 20 minutes or so I had to turn it off.

(I'm not saying it was a bad movie, I'm saying that I have a weak and impatient mind which is far too easily bored. If a book or movie doesn't grab me within the first 20 pages or 20 minutes, then I'm probably not gonna make it much further in. I remember watching The English Patient back in '98 with my then-girlfriend. Well, only the first 20 minutes of it...)
 

faile

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Ah, OK. That would explain why I haven't seen vaping in a movie yet. I tried to watch the Tourist. After 20 minutes or so I had to turn it off.

(I'm not saying it was a bad movie, I'm saying that I have a weak and impatient mind which is far too easily bored. If a book or movie doesn't grab me within the first 20 pages or 20 minutes, then I'm probably not gonna make it much further in. I remember watching The English Patient back in '98 with my then-girlfriend. Well, only the first 20 minutes of it...)

Ha! I haven't seen it either (not a big movie-watcher), I just did a little googling when you brought it up because you made me curious. Apparently Julia Louis-Dreyfus takes her vape with her everywhere... I knew I liked her. :)
 

Vermiform

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Careful Vermiform, if BT sees that post and realizes you're spreading truth, that thing in your avatar may "accidentally discharge" 20 or 30 times while you're cleaning it...


Insert internet tough guy bravado here about having lots of "toys" way out here in the country to send them running

........followed by a brutal assessment of my sad state of fitness

.....tempered with with a dose of cold reality as I realize that with that kind of money I'd probably never see them coming

.....and top it off with a little tinfoil as I shrug and decide that of all the lists I am probably already on, BT scares me the least. :unsure:
 
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amolson

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I don't think analogs will ever go away completely, but I think they'll become very niche. Much the way pipes and cigars have gone today. Heck, we have more vape shops where I live than tobacconists.

But yes, I think eventually analogs will go the way of pipe tobacco and cigars. A minority high end taste with the only remaining cigarettes on the market being high end and specialty brands. Even drug store pipe tobacco is considerably better quality than the stuff they put in most cigarettes.

Oh, think of the old soda fountains! That's where we are now. Before the days of bottled soda and a handful of standardized flavors. Now we have standard sodas at the C stores, high end luxury brands with a huge number of flavors and custom, make it yourself at home sodas with things like Sodastream.
 

djsvapour

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Now do you think the tobacco companies that bought some ecig companies will put more addictive stuff in the nicotine?

There is something very cynical going on in the UK. Tobacco companies are selling almost useless products, aimed at the dual fuel market. Not good enough to be a 100% alternative and loaded up with 45mg nicotine to increase nicotine addiction for the dual users.

Win, win. Those that try to go 100% e-cig will have to spend £20 a day and those that go back to smoking will smoke more than ever.
 
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