Totally Wicked: Deleting posts they don't like

[etip]

uhhhhh....you are aware that I didn't post anything on Totally Wicked's web site, right? It was in the Vendors' forum HERE.

Yeah, we know that internet forums are not public property....at least I hope we all know that. No one is claiming that anyone is breaking the law or anything - but there is a difference in having a RIGHT to do something and being RIGHT.

Websites that are owned or operated by businesses may set whatever standards they choose for postings that remain on their sites.

Every website I would go to has a Terms of Service which states they retain the right to edit or remove postings. They do not owe anyone a reason. It is their website. They allow people to use it, but they are in no way *required* to.

I am sorry if some people do not like that.

I look at it this way: It would not allow someone to come into my home or business and say or do things I do not approve of, and I have the right to remove them if they refuse. I do not have to allow anyone to insult me on my own property. Internet forums are not public property--they are owned by someone, and that someone has the right to set whatever rules they choose.

If someone wants to start a website where they and everyone else can say whatever they wish with impugnity, they are free to start their own websites.

Peace.

 

[titanflyer]

If someone wants to start a website where they and everyone else can say whatever they wish with impugnity, they are free to start their own websites.

Peace.

Already been done.. its called VF (wow, I put the full name of the site and it was edited out to just stars) and they do take advantage of the say anything clause...lol... its a breath of fresh air. I agree with you on your point though, its up to the company how they want to handle this stuff.

I would like to point out that although there is still quite a few negative posts on the TW subforum... there are many multiples of that number in more positive comments from customers giving feedback. So, my opinion would be that there is a back story behind the deletion and banning of these comments... we may never know.

 

[kcr]

I would like to point out that although there is still quite a few negative posts on the TW subforum... there are many multiples of that number in more positive comments from customers giving feedback. So, my opinion would be that there is a back story behind the deletion and banning of these comments... we may never know. __________________

Exactly right.

 

[kcr]

uhhhhh....you are aware that I didn't post anything on Totally Wicked's web site, right? It was in the Vendors' forum HERE.

I do not know this for a fact, but I would assume that as a sponsoring supplier they are given their own forum here as a benefit of their sponsorship.

If that is true, then it *is* their forum.

 

[raul]

What's he incentive then for suppliers to deliver great customer sevice and have their forums full of happy customers reporting their experience if some are allowed to delete posts. This is counterproductive and leaves little motivation for suppliers to be excellent and set high standards. Being a great resource and forum this policy needs to be looked at and the good suppliers who take pride in customer service will back it happily.

I am sure there is a problem that this rules are trying to address but it seems a vast over-reaction.

 

[kcr]

What is to stop me, if I work for Acme E-juice, from coming up with the bright idea to open an account or seven on ECF, then plaster TW's forum here with posts trashing them? If they are not allowed to delete posts, I can guarantee this will be a frequent occurrence.

I have no idea what the thread in question was about or who posted it, or whether or not TW tried to solve it for the person and they refused every reasonable attempt--and I don't much care. It is irrelevant.

The fact is that there are very few businesses--especially on the Internet--where 100% of the customers are 100% happy 100% of the time. And not necessarily because of anything the business did or did not do.

If I have a problem with a business, I have a choice: I can attempt to resolve it with the vendor, or I can get online and complain long and loud to anyone who will listen (and I am not referring to the OP of this thread).

But, if I read a post knocking a vendor, I am not going to take that post as Gospel truth. I am going to filter it through many things, not the least of which is my own experience with the vendor hand how the same vendor has resolved other disputes in the past. On the Internet people hide behind anonymity and tend to grossly overstate things. This makes it bad for people with legitimate beefs, but that is the way of the world--the bad always make things harder for the good.

Now, as has been pointed out on this thread, there are less-than-complimentary posts in the TW folder that have been allowed to remain. This leads me to believe that TW has tried to deal with the person in the thread in question, but the person was either a) unreasonable or b)not really a customer at all.

The customer is not always right. Sometimes the customer is a real jerk and you just want to be shed of them.

The OP of this thread appears to be collateral damage. I have no clue what he posted, but he either appeared to them to be working in concert with someone trolling their folder, or they confused him with someone else.

Frankly, I would contact Pillbox if I were the OP. I would also be prepared to apologize if there was a chance I was wrong or misunderstood.

 

[Angela]

I think this thread says everything about TW that you need to know:

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/totally-wicked-e-liquid/36796-resolution-kind.html#post561489

Jason will always try to resolve any issues, in my experience. It does seem though that occassionally not all of the staff follow the ethos completely. I understand that many of the US staff are new and haven't gotten used to the usual service given yet!

Jason can't be everywhere at once!

 

[beckah54]

You know, to me, this has nothing to do with TW. I have never purchased from them so I have no opinion on their customer service, good or bad.

It's about the right of the supplier to delete postings in their subforum that reflect poorly on them for whatever reason. If they are working with a customer with a problem or complaint, it is in their best interest to make that customer happy within reason.

If I read a thread that shows they're trying to appease the customer and he/she is being a jerk, it will not inflluence whether I purchase from them or not because they TRIED to make the customer happy. If I hear they deleted the thread, it makes me wonder what they are trying to hide.

No one supplier is going to make everyone happy, but deleting the threads just makes me wonder why. There are two things I look at at a supplier subforum.
1. How many customers were happy with their purchases and, if there was a problem, what was the resolution?
2. How many times a customer had to repeatedly email the supplier to get an answer to a question or a response to a problem.

If I don't have access to anything but the "good" comments, how can you judge the quality of the supplier? I work pretty hard for my money and I try to spend it wisely. But I need all the information I can get, both good and bad, to make a wise choice.

 

[smc]

When I was a n00b, I often judged how good or bad a supplier was by reading the posts in the supplier's subforums to find good/bad experiences others had with the specific supplier. If they can delete posts at will, how can anyone get a feel for their customer service or products?
I don't think they should be allowed to delete posts or whole threads because someone had a bad experince with them and wanted resolution. That defeats the whole purpose of having their subforums here at all.
How are new vapers to judge where to get their supplies if we don't keep an honest record from those that have had problems? I'm confused on these issues as I'm sure are many n00bs.
JMHO

Before I purchased my first kit I judged who was a quantity supplyer by the number of posts they had in their forum (not a good metric) (quantity=many people must like it). Additionally I scanned the titles of the posts to try and asertain the ratio of 'good/bad' (again bad metric). Most were good for all the suppliers that I was considering.

Before I made a purchase I started reading the main forums. This is where I found posts like this in regards to the supplier forums. Out of the 5 or so suppliers I was considering I found "negative" posts concerning all of them. Being that people can be "unlucky" with any given purchase, I made an arbitrary purchase. This just happened to be TW.

Anyway, if someone is really serious about switching to vaping then at the bare minimum they should spend some quality time searching the main forums.

I agree with letting the supplier mods delete posts. There is always going to be the guy that flames a supplier for some very minor thing. How the mods actually use this power is something different altogether.

You have to also consider... if I was a competing supplier I could very well get a hand full of customers to start posting negative things about my competition. What then?

 

[kcr]

uhhhhh....you are aware that I didn't post anything on Totally Wicked's web site, right? It was in the Vendors' forum HERE.

Yeah, we know that internet forums are not public property....at least I hope we all know that. No one is claiming that anyone is breaking the law or anything - but there is a difference in having a RIGHT to do something and being RIGHT.

I read part of the TW forum here, and I do not see any indication that "all unfavorable posts about them are being removed," as is being claimed. There are several there, and they are being addressed. Most of the complaints are about the time involved in receiving orders.

What you failed to say when you started this thread, etip, was that you were in TW's ECF forum advertising other suppliers. Remnants of your posts remain, as you said, in quotes.

I do not know if that is why Pillbox banned you from his forum, but I do know that it would be why *I* would have banned you. I wouldn't put up with that, and neither should anyone else be expected to. You earned the ban.

Might have been nice if you had admitted towhat you had actually done in there to get banned when you made your OP...

 

[lordmage]

the op brings up a good point. yes supporting supplier can control and self moderate their sections. the moderation staff usually only get involved in the extreme or rare cases.

Edit: moved out of newbie section

 

[etip]

kcr: you have come at me guns a blazin' since your first post in this thread. I certainly didn't pick a fight with you but I am not going to sit back and let you continue to put words in my mouth, infer or directly accuse me of all sorts of nonsense. I posted in the TW forum and here to share my experience not to be attacked. See below.

I read part of the TW forum here, and I do not see any indication that "all unfavorable posts about them are being removed," as is being claimed.

Claimed by WHO??!!! WHERE? I don't know what those quotes are for but you certainly aren't quoting me. Show me a link. NOT ME! In fact in my response to Wrecktangle here,I said exactly this:

"Yes, there are some good and some bad experiences posted there. But there was at least one long thread of a mostly bad experience where several others chimed in and talked about their bad experiences - mostly regarding TW's CS department. That thread was deleted without explanation as were most of my posts in other threads there. That leads me to believe that other similar threads & posts were deleted. I was not aware that vendors forum was moderated by the vendors themselves and that they could delete posts and threads without explanation. Perhaps I should have been aware of this. I won't even go into whether or not I think that is appropriate or not - but I do think it's important for everyone to be AWARE that this is the case."​

There are several there, and they are being addressed. Most of the complaints are about the time involved in receiving orders.

Indeed. They are being addressed NOW. Wonder about the one's in the thread that was deleted. Hmm. Guess we will never know how those turned out.

What you failed to say when you started this thread, etip, was that you were in TW's ECF forum advertising other suppliers. Remnants of your posts remain, as you said, in quotes.

Again, show me where I "advertised" for anyone! If you are referring to my mention of a couple other vendors that I have had good experiences with then why exactly would I assume that this was forbidden? I made it clear in at least one of my deleted posts over there that I was new and just putting in my .02. I thought this site was a place for reviews....and had no idea that mentioning one vendors name in another vendors forum would get you banned! As I mentioned in the OP here, I didn't even know that the vendors were mods for their subforums. I thought that forum Perhaps I should have know this - but based on the the responses here in this thread, it seems that I was not the only one that didn't know this.

The ironic thing is what drew me into that original discussion to begin with was that the OP had a problem with TW customer service, and I felt that they were being unnecessarily attacked simply for sharing their own experience....kinda like what you are doing to me. I posted a response indicating that I found their post helpful in deciding who to place a large order with. To me it felt like negative reviews of TW were not welcome and were met with anything from skepticism to downright hostility. One guy had what seemed to me to be a valid complaint - and a bunch of people attacked him for misspellings! To be fair, not everyone behaved this way. In fact after my post, a couple others stepped in to defend the OP and some posted their own negative and positive experiences.

I came across that original thread by searching the site for posts regarding PW. At the time, I had had about $200 in my cart at TW and based on that thread as well as others, I chose to place that order elsewhere. Ultimately, I did place a couple orders with TW and was actually happy with my experience (and I posted as much in that very thread!).

I do not know if that is why Pillbox banned you from his forum....

...nope and neither do I. That's kind of been my key point all along. If it was for (god forbid!) mentioning other vendors, no one told me. I asked Pillbox directly a few times (in the very same thread you are MISquoting me from) why my posts -were being deleted.

but I do know that it would be why *I* would have banned you. .

let me guess....because you don't like me?

I wouldn't put up with that, and neither should anyone else be expected to. You earned the ban.

Put up with WHAT? I sure wouldn't want to be involved in any forum that you moderated.

Might have been nice if you had admitted towhat you had actually done in there to get banned when you made your OP...

How am I supposed to admit to something I didn't know was (supposedly) so verboten?

I have worked in the computer field for 20+ years and have been involved in various forums since the dial-up/BBS days. I don't think I have ever been banned or even warned on any forum. And I have never *seen* anyone get banned from a forum for as silly as this supposed infraction.

 

[kcr]

Okay.

Here is the portion of what you posted in the TW forum:

Originally Posted by etip



There was a long thread here last week about complaints (and support) regarding TW's customer service, but it disappeared with no explananation. There are many strong supporters of TW but from what I gathered in that thread and others - it seems as if you DO have a problem with an order from them and have to deal with CS, that's where the trouble starts. I have placed a couple orders with them with no problems so far but I limit what and how much I spend there because of these concerns. Vendors I strongly recommend: e-Smokey Treats, Rocky Mountain Vapor. I am tentative regarding Nuvape as well. I have had a few good experiences there but others have had mixed results

Yes, that is advertising other suppliers in a supplier's own forum. Yes, that is unacceptable. And I order from both RMV and E-Smokey Treats, find them both to be fantastic suppliers. But I would not go into one of their sites and tell people to go to TW instead, either.

I am not understanding why you cannot see that this was unacceptable behavior.

I do not like or dislike you--I do not know you. I was not attacking you, I was strongly disagreeing with your posts and your tactics. I was pointing out your inconsistencies, and the fact that you left out a crucial point.

You may not have said as a hard quote that TW was removing all negative comments, and I did not intend it as a hard quote by anyone in particular, including you, but as a general description of what was being said in this thread--a synopsis, if you will. And you cannot deny, if you read back through this thread, that that is the impression that most of the responses got and you did not do anything to disabuse them of this notion, now did you? No, rather you fueled it.

I do understand that you are all wadded up because you got edited/deleted and told not to post there. And I am sorry. But the best thing--and the thing that will leave your dignity in tact in the long run, would be to accept and move on with your life. There is an entire page of folders on ECF that you can still post in. Your rights have not been abridged in any damaging way, you will still awaken a free man (or woman, I have no clue and do not intend to insult) and, God willing, will continue in your computer job for many years to come.

Which brings me to what bothers me about your thread:

You are frivolously maligning someone's livelihood.


This is not a game or a way to pass the time of day to the suppliers. This is how they earn their keep, pay their mortgages and feed their children.


Do you really think that a few typed words in a post on a forum by you or anyone else is worth putting someone's livelihood in jeopardy? Particularly—particularly a supplier who by your own words has always given you good service.
Would you think it fair if one of your clients fired off self-righteous posts about you on the Internet? How about on your company's website-- “Hey—etip is lousy! Go to kcr instead!” Would that make you feel good? How about if it cost you business? How about if someone came to your defense and they responded with “Don't listen to that person—etip must pay that person!” And then continued on well into the night with no signs of getting weary of the whole petty mess.


I would get more than a tad huffy, to tell you the truth. I think you would, too.


From everything I have read in the TW forum, they have a known problem and are dealing with it. It happens. Just because I order something and do not get it when I think I should have does not mean that gravity will reverse itself and we will all fly off into space. They are swamped, they know they are swamped, they are dealing with their swampedness.


There are times when complaints are warranted. There are times when patience is warranted. And there are times when it is just best to keep one's mouth firmly shut and decide which is appropriate at a given time. And sometimes we just need to know when something isn't really any of our business.


I am pretty sure the whole thing could have been avoided had to reacted a bit less indignation and a bit more perspicacity. If I were you, I would fire off an apology to Pillbox. Wouldn't hurt. Might help.


But I am herewith deciding that this is none of my business and not a productive use of my time, as we do not seem to be communicating very well.


I wish you well.

 

[The Wiz]

I am having Deja vu here.....in a bad way!!The Wiz!

 

[surbitonPete]

Okay.

Here is the portion of what you posted in the TW forum:



Yes, that is advertising other suppliers in a supplier's own forum. Yes, that is unacceptable. And I order from both RMV and E-Smokey Treats, find them both to be fantastic suppliers. But I would not go into one of their sites and tell people to go to TW instead, either.

I am not understanding why you cannot see that this was unacceptable behavior.

I do not like or dislike you--I do not know you. I was not attacking you, I was strongly disagreeing with your posts and your tactics. I was pointing out your inconsistencies, and the fact that you left out a crucial point.

You may not have said as a hard quote that TW was removing all negative comments, and I did not intend it as a hard quote by anyone in particular, including you, but as a general description of what was being said in this thread--a synopsis, if you will. And you cannot deny, if you read back through this thread, that that is the impression that most of the responses got and you did not do anything to disabuse them of this notion, now did you? No, rather you fueled it.

I do understand that you are all wadded up because you got edited/deleted and told not to post there. And I am sorry. But the best thing--and the thing that will leave your dignity in tact in the long run, would be to accept and move on with your life. There is an entire page of folders on ECF that you can still post in. Your rights have not been abridged in any damaging way, you will still awaken a free man (or woman, I have no clue and do not intend to insult) and, God willing, will continue in your computer job for many years to come.

Which brings me to what bothers me about your thread:

You are frivolously maligning someone's livelihood.


This is not a game or a way to pass the time of day to the suppliers. This is how they earn their keep, pay their mortgages and feed their children.


Do you really think that a few typed words in a post on a forum by you or anyone else is worth putting someone's livelihood in jeopardy? Particularly—particularly a supplier who by your own words has always given you good service.
Would you think it fair if one of your clients fired off self-righteous posts about you on the Internet? How about on your company's website-- “Hey—etip is lousy! Go to kcr instead!” Would that make you feel good? How about if it cost you business? How about if someone came to your defense and they responded with “Don't listen to that person—etip must pay that person!” And then continued on well into the night with no signs of getting weary of the whole petty mess.


I would get more than a tad huffy, to tell you the truth. I think you would, too.


From everything I have read in the TW forum, they have a known problem and are dealing with it. It happens. Just because I order something and do not get it when I think I should have does not mean that gravity will reverse itself and we will all fly off into space. They are swamped, they know they are swamped, they are dealing with their swampedness.


There are times when complaints are warranted. There are times when patience is warranted. And there are times when it is just best to keep one's mouth firmly shut and decide which is appropriate at a given time. And sometimes we just need to know when something isn't really any of our business.


I am pretty sure the whole thing could have been avoided had to reacted a bit less indignation and a bit more perspicacity. If I were you, I would fire off an apology to Pillbox. Wouldn't hurt. Might help.


But I am herewith deciding that this is none of my business and not a productive use of my time, as we do not seem to be communicating very well.


I wish you well.

I really like that post.

 

[gep]

I think of the supplier subforums as their adverstising/PR homes. I read comments in the member forums where the suppliers cannot advertise to glean "objective" information about products.

etip, I understand being new to the forum how you would find this practice to be somewhat distasteful. But that's the way it is and has been.

There is sufficient anecdotal evidence within these forums that TW does not tolerate his customers being treated unfairly, if he is aware of it. In fact, I recall that he went to Florida from the UK to get things straight not too long ago because of the complaints of no or slow responses to customer inquiries. If they've had staff turnover since then, perhaps he needs to reiterate his position regarding customer service to his new employees.

Hope you take the time to read some of the older posts as they are chock full of information that will help fill in the blanks about e-cigs in general and this forum in particular.

Cheers,
GEP

 

[lordmage]

ok all it has been addressed and answered the suppliers sub-forums are directly under that suppliers control including what is allowed to stay with support from the moderation Staff at ECF as needed. this goes for all supporting suppliers.

 

[etip]

You know, I am really regretting every posting my experience here at all and am getting close to being done with this forum altogether. It just doesn't seem worth it.

For those of you that expressed support or appreciation publicly or via PM -- thanks! I sincerely hope that I helped you make informed decisions as to where you make your purchases. And believe it or not, I sincerely hope that TW turns things around and gets ahold of their Customer Service situation. More strong suppliers benefits all of us.

In the famous deleted thread, there were actually some great discussions in regards to what the customers responsibilities are vs. that of the vendors; different ways to handle an upset customer...and when it was a "lost cause", etc. I managed to find a copy of one of those posts and I will repost it separately.

kcr: I wish you well too. Let's just leave it at that. Escalating or continuing this discussion is clearly of no benefit to anyone. It's sad how often frequently discussions come to this.

TW: For the benefit of others if nothing else, why not explain here or the "Not-so-positive Experience with TW" thread exactly why I was "banned"? If it was, as kcr suggests, because I mentioned other suppliers then it was not clear to me that this was some kind of violation and perhaps you should consider making that a sticky (along with other such rules). Part of me still wonders if you aren't getting me mixed up with another user - the user that started the thread that was removed did have a similar username.

 

[etip]

Trog: Well put and I agree with most if not all of what you say.
BVila: Glad to hear that your are hearing back from TW and I hope it gets resolved for you.

no single individual can paint the true picture based on their own very limitedly experience of the e cig seller scene in general..

all they can do is paint their own very small part of the big picture.. TW has thousands of customers.. most get a (relatively) good experience a small number get a bad one..

Totally agree with the above. I have not personally had any bad experiences with TW and in fact, I have ordered from them as recently as a couple of days ago. I am still cautious however; I have seen enough of a trend with complaints about their CS that I don't place large orders there. The more people that post their experiences, the more info we all have to go on. And of course everything is subjective and everyone has different standards, expectations, etc. It sounds like BV is getting his issue resolved and that is a good thing. Even better that he is sharing his experience and updating us as things change. I am sure that TW is backed up right now with the sale and with people "stocking up". I am not going to trash them over the somewhat slow response by any means - but I still take that into account along with other factors (shipping time, reliability, stability, etc.) Whether a victim of their own success or otherwise, all other things being equal- if I have a vendor that has been more responsive when issues come up then I am more likely choose them. For example, I had a small problem with an item recently from Rocky Mountain Vapor and their response was immediate. That left a strong and positive impression on me.

e cig battereis for those who have real knowledge of the subject are not exactly the most reliable things on the planet..

That's an understatement, IMHO . I am struggling with that very issue right now (have a 901, killed 2 std. batts; bought a couple manuals but they seem to be lasting less than 1/2 as long..).

people who do research into the e cig scene would know this.. it was said long long ago.. never just buy a single starter kit.. always buy some spares in at the same time..

There is certainly good information here and elsewhere. In fact, the problem may be that there is TOO MUCH to sort through. I am a n00b to e-cigs but not to forums, gadgets or new technology so I have been through this before but I have to say it took a LOT of reading & video watching to come up to speed and I am still learning. There are a lot of great intro videos and threads and overall - people are much nicer and more willing to help in this community than in most I have experienced and that goes a long way. But I know there are plenty of people that wouldn't tolerate the learning curve - and that's a shame because we are talking about lives here. Not blaming anyone for this - but vendors that make make this process easier will go far.

I have had my frustrations -but the fact that I was able to quit... analogs (still can't get used to saying/typing that word. I am a geek...but it's just seems dorky to me - I'll get over it.) is more than enough to make up for the problems. I would disagree with you when you say "never buy a single starter kit", however. If it is your very first e-cig - you don't want to spend more $ than you have to until you are sure it's "for you". In my case, I researched and chose a 901 - starter kit only. Once I realized it was something I could take to (within a week or so), I ordered extra parts and one for my wife. I have friends that are now interested and I would still recommend they get just a starter kit since I am not sure they are prepared for the learning curve, etc.

okay.. it could be said this situation is far from ideal.. but its the situation we have at the moment.. perhaps the sellers are wrong for not making this "unreliability" factor clearer but if they did folks would buy from someone else who embellished the truth a little more....

Absolutely correct. It wouldn't be smart to but a giant bright red warning about "ureliability" on one's web page. There are things that can, help that many if not most vendors do. Having a clearly stated and fair return/exchange policy helps a lot. So does a FAQ and a forum. Live Chat is great too. More than anything - just an overall clear path for support. Most importantly, they need to be consistently responsive to genuine problems. (And i don't mean handholding, people need to take responsibility for learning how to properly use the product despite the steep learning curve).

And just like consumers need to educate themselves, *VENDORS* need to do the same. I would assume that when one decides to enter into the e-cig business, they are already aware of the potential problems with the product and they should have some kind of strategy for dealing with that (not saying that they aren't doing so). Ditto for dealing with "customs issues", "shipping issues", etc. I don't subscribe to the view that when problems come up, that we (consumers) should just "deal with it" or automatically accept it (not inferring that you do this). *Some* vendors sometimes seem ill-prepared or dealing with these things that they should have clearly anticipated.

if you really want to totally get off real cigs.. or in other words become dependant on e cigs.. do not under any circumstances expect to do it with one starter kit on its own..

this dosnt matter who you buy from or where you buy from.. if you only have just the one starter kit it will let you down.. allow for this and buy in some spare parts before it does..

True, but if one vendor gives you that warm fuzzy feeling that they will step up to the plate and make things *as easy as possible* when things go wrong....it makes a difference. This is even MORE important in an industry where both the failure rate and learning curve is high. IMHO, there is still a huge market out there for e-cigs, primarily consisting of people that have less of a tolerance for "issues". Difficult to say whether any level of hand-holding would convert these people, though. I think that perhaps we are still in the "early adopter" stage and the product reliability needs to improve.

TW with the their multi packs of cheaper parts are trying to be as honest as any seller can be.. the bottom line is e cigs do and will work but the initial start up cost is more than just one starter kit..

Great example. I have ordered two multi-packs with the clear understanding that they don't offer the same warranty. It would be nice if they clarified whether this includes DOA's though.

know the truth learn to cope with the truth.. dont expect more from an e cig than it can deliver.. and dont expect more from a seller than they can deliver..

Well, let's not forget that the truth can be difficult to nail down and there is sometimes conflicting information. (i.e. - Does dripping damage an atomizer? How long does a cartridge or battery last?). Yes, I know that some of these things are subjective and/or vary by nature but again, the vendors also knew this when they got into the business and have some responsibility to set expectations for their customers.

none of them are perfect and nether is the product they sell..

True, true.

 

[BigJimW]

Fortunately, there are only a few suppliers here at ECF who are like this. It's pretty obvious when you visit a supplier's sub-forum and see deleted posts and threads who to stay away from.

Yup. Wet Your Stick allows all posts to stay, good and bad. Glad I stuck with them.