FDA TVECA post table of contents for Deeming Final Rule

[Kent C]

One thing that Confuses me when I hear the expression "Self-Regulation" is can Regulation Exist without Enforcement of said Regulations? YES

If so, who Enforces things when Something or Someone is in Non-Compliance in this Self-Regulated Market? WE do by not buying or trashing it on board.

And what are the Actual Regulations that we are Self-Regulating ourselves to in the First Place?

The 'E2' (CE2) experience - Dangerous Carto thread - in communication via badkolo? with Royal Smokers - wick is too long - wick was shortened; glued on stuff - no glue; don't like the weld - press on fitting; don't like the plastic - pyrex glass; And later - dry hits from top coils - bottom coils; want dual coils - ok - dual coils; want verticle coils - done!

Before that - it was cartos and cartridges. Not saying that 'evolution' wouldn't have happened, but it happened here with a lot of input by our stellar vets - too many to mention. And not just that thread although it was primary. So every time you see the latest and greatest subtank - think of that - I do

We did the same with exploding batts - better short and charge protection on the batts and chargers - I'm sure flashlight forums had their share of input as well.

And so many others suggestions and ideas that came from customer use where the manufactures comply on hardware and eliquids. And then people say that 'well that doesn't stop gas stations from selling crap' - yes it does - it 'trickles down' even to the crappy products. Esp. when someone goes to a vape shop instead of a gas station and gas stations and their owners and clerks know what other products are available. So a customer who has never heard of ECF still benefits from what the people here - who are more knowledgeable - demand. Spring loaded center pins, no diacetyl, no sugar, reversible screens, on/off, lock settings, replaceable batts, more mAh, small box mods, Temp Control, kanthal TC, better wire, better wicking, wide mouth drip tips, etc., etc., etc.

 

[zoiDman]

The 'E2' (CE2) experience - Dangerous Carto thread - in communication via badkolo? with Royal Smokers - wick is too long - wick was shortened; glued on stuff - no glue; don't like the weld - press on fitting; don't like the plastic - pyrex glass; And later - dry hits from top coils - bottom coils; want dual coils - ok - dual coils; want verticle coils - done!

And so many others suggestions and ideas that came from customer use where the manufactures comply on hardware and eliquids. And then people say that 'well that doesn't stop gas stations from selling crap' - yes it does - it 'trickles down' even to the crappy products. Esp. when someone goes to a vape shop instead of a gas station and gas stations and their owners and clerks know what other products are available. So a customer who has never heard of ECF still benefits from what the people here - who are more knowledgeable - demand. Spring loaded center pins, no diacetyl, no sugar, reversible screens, on/off, lock settings, replaceable batts, more mAh, small box mods, Temp Control, kanthal TC, better wire, better wicking, wide mouth drip tips, etc., etc., etc.

Maybe I read Too Much into what you Originally said. Or applied the term "Self-Regulation" to something you weren't Applying it to.

Because I was thinking more Along the Lines of Regulation of e-Liquids.

 

[Lessifer]

Maybe I read Too Much into what you Originally said. Or applied the term "Self-Regulation" to something you weren't Applying it to.

Because I was thinking more Along the Lines of Regulation of e-Liquids.

I'm thinking self-regulation by market forces as opposed to some "body" that would enforce a prescribed set of rules.

You know, people decide they don't want D/AP in their liquid, eventually liquids with D/AP in them stop selling(people stop buying them) so the vendors stop making/selling them.

It HAS worked fairly well so far. In addition to that, you would have the regular consumer protections that are available for every other product out there. A vendor says that product X does Y, or that e-liquid A does not contain ingredient B, and if those statements are found not to be true, they can be brought to court for false claims, as well as being publicly ridiculed on social media.

 

[zoiDman]

I'm thinking self-regulation by market forces as opposed to some "body" that would enforce a prescribed set of rules.

You know, people decide they don't want D/AP in their liquid, eventually liquids with D/AP in them stop selling(people stop buying them) so the vendors stop making/selling them.

It HAS worked fairly well so far. In addition to that, you would have the regular consumer protections that are available for every other product out there. A vendor says that product X does Y, or that e-liquid A does not contain ingredient B, and if those statements are found not to be true, they can be brought to court for false claims, as well as being publicly ridiculed on social media.

I think maybe where I'm having a Problem is I see the concept "Market Regulation" as there being a Single Set of Regulations which are Binding, and then Some Entity that has the Power to Enforce these Regulations.

I see Bits and Pieces of it for e-Liquids. But I just couldn't call the e-Liquid market that we have Today a "Self-Regulated" market.

A Market driven by Consumer Preference? Sure. But Not Self-Regulated.

 

[Lessifer]

I think maybe where I'm having a Problem is I see the concept "Market Regulation" as there being a Single Set of Regulations which are Binding, and then Some Entity that has the Power to Enforce these Regulations.

I see Bits and Pieces of it for e-Liquids. But I just couldn't call the e-Liquid market that we have Today a "Self-Regulated" market.

A Market driven by Consumer Preference? Sure. But Not Self-Regulated.

I think regulated might be the wrong term. When I order an e-liquid from one of my favorite vendors, I am reasonably sure(above 90%) that it will be what I ordered, in the pg/vg ratio I specified, and at the correct nic level. Is there someone who will assess a fine on the vendor if that turns out not to be the case? No. Will I order from them again if they do not send me what I ordered? No.

I'm okay with it taking a little while for the less reliable vendors to be weeded out through market forces, though I understand why others would not be.

 

[Kent C]

Maybe I read Too Much into what you Originally said. Or applied the term "Self-Regulation" to something you weren't Applying it to.

It's a matter of orientation or even depth of economic education. If you're read Adam Smith, Milton Friedman, FA Hayek, Von Mises - there would be instant duplication of ideas. If you've read Keynes, Galbraith, Thurow, Rawls, et al. then you may have a time grasping the idea.

Because I was thinking more Along the Lines of Regulation of e-Liquids.

Also self-regulated by demand for quality and not including certain stuff - D/AP, etc.

 

[Kent C]

I think maybe where I'm having a Problem is I see the concept "Market Regulation" as there being a Single Set of Regulations which are Binding, and then Some Entity that has the Power to Enforce these Regulations.

Yes - you want force to be used. I don't. I think people can figure it out by their minds - so addressing their minds instead of blackmailing, coercing them addresses their nature as volitional rational beings rather than stimulus/response animals. The Left always uses force or threat of force, even the Peace and Love hippies. Libertarians types use consent, instead.

Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed,

 

[navigator2011]

Yes - you want force to be used. I don't. I think people can figure it out by their minds - so addressing their minds instead of blackmailing, coercing them addresses their nature as volitional rational beings rather than stimulus/response animals. The Left always uses force or threat of force, even the Peace and Love hippies. Libertarians types use consent, instead.

Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed,

"Like" x 10^1000

. . . because "Like" x 10^0 is just not enough!!!

 

[zoiDman]

It's a matter of orientation or even depth of economic education. If you're read Adam Smith, Milton Friedman, FA Hayek, Von Mises - there would be instant duplication of ideas. If you've read Keynes, Galbraith, Thurow, Rawls, et al. then you may have a time grasping the idea.



Also self-regulated by demand for quality and not including certain stuff - D/AP, etc.

Yes - you want force to be used. I don't. I think people can figure it out by their minds - so addressing their minds instead of blackmailing, coercing them addresses their nature as volitional rational beings rather than stimulus/response animals. The Left always uses force or threat of force, even the Peace and Love hippies. Libertarians types use consent, instead.

Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed,

I'm Not Say'n or Advocating I want Anything. And I'm not trying to Promote a Platform for some Left vs. Right debate like some want to Make Everything.

All I'm say'n is I Don't see how One could say that the Current Market we buy e-Liquids in is "Self-Regulated".

 

[Kent C]

I'm Not Say'n or Advocating I want Anything.
And I'm not trying to Promote a Platform for some Left vs. Right debate like some want to Make Everything.

Zoidman: (quote): "...I see the concept "Market Regulation" as there being a Single Set of Regulations which are Binding, and then Some Entity that has the Power to Enforce these Regulations."

When you put things in those terms - political terms - you're going to get a political argument to explain why using 'the power to enforce' isn't the only answer.

The difference in 'gov't regulation' (which is what you're actually stating there - not 'market regulation) and self-regulation is that gov't regulation means force or threat of force, whereas self-regulation or consumer regulation would be by demand for certain products and a refusal to buy certain products - no force involved. I don't know how I could make it any clearer.

So if you don't get that - fine, but quit bringing up what are 'political ideas' and then accusing me and others as 'making everything into a political discussion. Every time someone mentions BT or BP, it's political. IF you and others don't want political discussions, then don't bring up political ideas and you won't hear much from me.

Much of it is because you don't understand what is political and what isn't. You have certain 'givens' that you think aren't political when in fact it's just your brainwashing and stuff you've bought into through media, Hollywood, public schools to where you are surprised (and disturbed) when someone offers an alternative way to address things. And you get all - 'stop with the politics!' when it was you who brought it up in the first place. Even if you didn't know you did, where you're just parroting (and not understanding the propaganda you never think twice about.)

 

[DC2]

All I'm say'n is I Don't see how One could say that the Current Market we buy e-Liquids in is "Self-Regulated".

Would you prefer self-guided, or self-monitored?

 

[zoiDman]

Zoidman: (quote): "...I see the concept "Market Regulation" as there being a Single Set of Regulations which are Binding, and then Some Entity that has the Power to Enforce these Regulations."

When you put things in those terms - political terms - you're going to get a political argument to explain why using 'the power to enforce' isn't the only answer.

The difference in 'gov't regulation' (which is what you're actually stating there - not 'market regulation) and self-regulation is that gov't regulation means force or threat of force, whereas self-regulation or consumer regulation would be by demand for certain products and a refusal to buy certain products - no force involved. I don't know how I could make it any clearer.

So if you don't get that - fine, but quit bringing up what are 'political ideas' and then accusing me and others as 'making everything into a political discussion. Every time someone mention BT or BP it's political. IF you and others don't want political discussions, then don't bring up political ideas and you won't hear much from me.

Much of it is because you don't understand what is political and what isn't. You have certain 'givens' that you think aren't political when in fact it's just your brainwashing and stuff you've bought into through media, Hollywood, public schools to where you are surprised (and disturbed) when someone offers an alternative way to address things. And you get all - 'stop with the politics!' when it was you who brought it up in the first place. Even if you didn't know you did, where you're just parroting (and not understanding the propaganda you never think twice about.)

Oh.... I see.

By saying that I don't think the e-Liquid Market is "Self-Regulated", I was the one turning this into a Political Debate.

Thus Opening the Door for all the Left vs. Right Soapboxing that we All have come to Love.

Then Great. In the Interest of Not Fueling some Esoteric Pissing Contest as to why the Right is Better than the Left, or the Left is Better than the Right, I can have it your way. We are in a Self-Regulated e-Liquid Market.

BTW - Is there Anything here we can Talk About that Doesn't start one of these Left vs. Right Debates? Because I think Many are getting Tired of them.

 

[zoiDman]

Would you prefer self-guided, or self-monitored?

I'd rather not say Either Way. Or even Interject Something Else.

Because all it would do is Launch another Round of why some Political Faction is Clearly Superior to Some Other.

 

[Kent C]

By saying that I don't think the e-Liquid Market is "Self-Regulated", I was the one turning this into a Political Debate.

You can't even read what you said

You mentioned - as I pointed out - 'binding' and 'enforcing' - not that, as you say above, 'that I don't think the eliquid market is self-regulated.' So yes - you were turning it into a political debate when you mention binding and enforcing regulations - that's what a certain faction think should be done and it's a political idea.

 

[Kent C]

I'd rather not say Either Way. Or even Interject Something Else.

Because all it would do is Launch another Round of why some Political Faction is Clearly Superior to Some Other.

Playing the victim card.... typical. And it's more about 'other options' rather than clearly superior - but if that's the way you want to spin it, go right ahead.

 

[zoiDman]

You can't even read what you said

You mentioned - as I pointed out - 'binding' and 'enforcing' - not that, as you say above, 'that I don't think the eliquid market is self-regulated.' So yes - you were turning it into a political debate when you mention binding and enforcing regulations - that's what a certain faction think should be done and it's a political idea.

I thought we were all Past that?

Because didn't I say that I now agree that we are in a "Self-Regulated" Market.

 

[zoiDman]

Playing the victim card.... typical. And it's more about 'other options' rather than clearly superior - but if that's the way you want to spin it, go right ahead.

Don't see any Cards being Played.

And if Not Saying something about self-guided, or self-monitored will Keep this thread On Topic, I'm All For it.

It's like that Homeless Guy down by the Bus Stop. If you keep Talking to him, he will Keep Telling you why the Aliens are Talking Over High Ranking Government Positions.

Better to just Nod and say... "Oh Yeah, I'm Totally with you."

BTW - Wasn't trying to Start a Political Debate when I mentioned "High Ranking Government Positions". Because I didn't get the Feeling that the Homeless guy believes that the Aliens are Selective in the Government Positions that they Infest. So it Really Isn't a Alien Right vs. Alien Left thing.

Just to be Clear.

 

[Katya]

yup! 'storm troopers' are definitely not a thing of the past in this country

Obama Food Safety Czar Defends Armed Raids on Amish Farmers, Raw Milk Producers

 

[haleysdadda]

Obama Food Safety Czar Defends Armed Raids on Amish Farmers, Raw Milk Producers

My gosh how did Hitler & Stalin's love child get to be in charge of the FDA?

 

[Katya]

My gosh how did Hitler & Stalin's love child get to be in charge of the FDA?

Armed raids. Guns drawn. Peaceful goat herders in handcuffs. Cheese samples and honey jars confiscated.

"We believe we're doing our job," Taylor said at a presentation at the Ogilvy Washington public affairs group. He promised to "keep doing our public health job," and described his agency's campaign against raw milk producers as based on a "public health duty" and "statutory directive."