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U.S.A: PACT Act 2009

Discussion in 'Law and the E-Cigarette' started by AngeLsLuv, Sep 11, 2009.

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  1. sattec

    sattec Super Member ECF Veteran

    Jul 4, 2009
    mcallen texas
    hey! I thought we were on topic! It's all connected! If nobody censors the board, I would think any post is fair game to respond to...Bad boy Brewster, no "kids vaping" talk allowed in this thread.
  2. Halcyon

    Halcyon Unregistered Supplier

    Nov 5, 2009
    Winchester, VA
    ...So did anything happen? I felt like I was holding my breath all damn day at work over this and I can't even find any info on if a decision was made or postponed or even brought to attention at the proposed 10am... Should've Tivo'd CSPAN, lol. and several other sites show no progress.

    Anyone in the know? :fingerscrossed:
  3. Brewster 59

    Brewster 59 Ultra Member ECF Veteran

    Actually I wasn't talking about kids vaping I was stating that this bill is hiding under the skirts of keeping minors from illegaly obtaining tob prod when in reality this is about control and revenue. Control by making it so we can only purchase the prod our state says are ok and I guess i dont have to explain the revenue part.

    Does anyone know the results of this bill? This bill is more worrisome than the FDA issue by far.
  4. TropicalBob

    TropicalBob Vaping Master ECF Veteran

    Jan 13, 2008
    Port Charlotte, FL USA
    This bill goes far beyond e-cigs. E-cigs have never satisfied my nicotine needs, but do a great job of satisfying the habit part of cigarette smoking (which I quit July 17, 2007). For nicotine, I turn to snus and dissolvables. I also use nasal snuff and puff a pipe a few times each day. I would not stay "quit" on e-cigs alone.

    This bill threatens to prevent shipping of Swedish snus, nasal snuff, and Stonewall dissolvables to me. If my local tobacco shop doesn't have an item, I'll be out of luck. I don't order online to avoid paying tax -- although that's great! -- but to obtain items I cannot buy locally. I need that outlet.

    And I know I'm not alone. Read forums devoted to snus, nasal snuff or pipe tobacco to understand that there are many thousands of us in the U.S. who rely on online ordering of supplies.

    The bill is not final yet, and we'll see if allowances are made for small shipments to residences. That's key. Shipments will be made to businesses. That's allowed by the bill. It's the little guys like me and you that will be shafted here. As far as this bill is concerned, all we're doing is avoiding taxes.

    P.S. The bill was held over, and will be considered at some future date.
  5. olderthandirt

    olderthandirt Vaping Master Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Mar 28, 2009
    Willamette Valley, PNW
    Mayhaps you can help me out here T Bob.

    I posted in a related thread that I had skimmed the bill. Admitted, it was a skim, but what I got out of reading through S1147 was that it puts in place the means to collect taxes and it seems to dis-allow transport by USPS. Appeared that as long as applicable taxes were payed, shipment by other than USPS would continue.

    That's a huge paraphrase of what I skimmed, wheewwww only 74 pages as opposed to the 1990 pages f HR 3962 I spent several days on last week.

    I'll be reading more closely at this so I can better speak, but could you point me to the meaningful sections that spell out why we'll no longer be able to get smokeless tobacco products shipped to.

    Oop I see where you do address the ship to business vs residence in your post. Lord trying to make sense of proposed bills can be a trial for common folk like me:)
  6. TropicalBob

    TropicalBob Vaping Master ECF Veteran

    Jan 13, 2008
    Port Charlotte, FL USA
    It's a trial for me, too, and I profess no expert qualification for understanding all the legalese. The bill is being discussed on several forums I read each day.

    I can't point our specific sections for you. I have read that some companies will just throw up their arms and abandon online ordering/shipping if this bill becomes law. Imagine you're a small Swedish business selling snus or nasal snuff and now the U.S. wants you to keep track of taxes due in 50 states, collect those taxes, and get them to the states for every order you fill.

  7. olderthandirt

    olderthandirt Vaping Master Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Mar 28, 2009
    Willamette Valley, PNW
    Understood. I'm reading through it right now. The sections that cover required record keeping, tax payments received and age verification, could well put a lot vendors either out of business or as for the folks in Europe, just wash their hands of US sales.

    Sticky one with out doubt...
  8. whistlrr

    whistlrr Super Member ECF Veteran

    what I unfortunately predict is that the online shops will come down, they'll be forced to take their websites down, told that these are illegal. The very least/best they'll be able to hope for wold be allowed to exist but forced to sell to the very scant few (and getting fewer all the time) number of countries who can legally accept/buy e-cigs and supplies.
    I'm afraid this is how the US sellers are going to go away because they're going to hit us two fold

    1. "E -cigs are a a nicotine delivery device, yes, even when you don't use nicotine in them" (see a maddening exchange someone here actually had with the FDA via email about this)

    2. E cigs are a tobacco product, the PACT (I think thats the one) is going to ban the mailing of tobacco products" -- this one's really rotten because its also liable to close down snus and nasal snuff suppliers as well

    3. Nicotine liquid will either be considered a 'tobacco product' along with the e cig (see above) or will be reclassified as a controlled substance and therefore considered a drug and the sale of products containing pure/liquid nicotine (in amounts above the amount a tomato etc will hold) will be prohibited.

    I'm thinking as long as passthroughs don't break, we don't manage to melt or lose our cartridges and we can figre out the amazing feat of how to construct our own atomizers or come up with creative alternate devices (that don't even resemble cigarettes in any way whatsoever) we may at least be able to vape (but just vape, no nicotine)

    otherwise we're going to have to learn how to get creative with loose tobacco we can still buy directly over the counter (how to make our own snus etc from it for either snusing or maybe even vaping a la tropical bob's ingenious idea).

    this is kinda gonna be like people who have permission to partake of certain medicinal herbs.. they can possess it, they can supposedly use it, but good actually luck actually getting a hold of it, cultivating it, sharing it with others also permitted to partake or finding a device or a place in which you can safely partake , etc etc without somebody's risking arrest.

    in the event of Emageddon, seriously I'm thinking for me the most likely outcome will be

    I'm still planning on one of my options being possibly to go down to 0 e-cig nicotine and just using it for the hand-to-mouth pyschological piece of the 'hey, I'm smoking!" thing and seeing what smokeless tobacco work arounds I can device out of standard pipe/'american spirit' etc types of tobacco (like maybe trying to make my own snus out of it) from tobaccos that I can still buy directly over the counter

    maybe by the time all my atomizers wear out I wouldn't need the e-cig any more, sad but true that's today about how realistically it would work out for me, but at least I still wouldn't be smoking

    edited to add here:
    I see the healthcare thing passed 'the house' on saturday, needed 218 votes and got 219 or 220, now it needs to go to the senate or whatever

    Do you think Big Pharma NRTs will magically be affordable to all as a result?
    (Can anybody tell me why somehow I just don't think thats gonna happen, no matter what?)
  9. sattec

    sattec Super Member ECF Veteran

    Jul 4, 2009
    mcallen texas
    Our best bet is Obama gets on the wrong side of big tobacco somehow, the way he got on the wrong side of the media when he jumped FOX news and the other medias stood with FOX, those media outlets look at Obama different today than they did...all it takes is for enough power house's to line up against him and he's toast, I hope the Senate is next power house to lineup against BO...remember what happened to the governor of Illinois when the powers lined up against him.... ;)
  10. Webby

    Webby Resting In Peace ECF Veteran

    Mar 31, 2009
    I own an ISP and we write shopping carts for a living. Changing the code to parse out individual state taxes would be a PITA, but wouldn't shutter my business. Most of my sales are done through a network of tobacco retail stores so I could even survive an outright ban on mail shipments although it would involve hiring more delivery drivers.

    The real loser here would be the user. SE and Njoy have established delivery chains in truck stops and malls and (assuming e-cigs aren't banned altogether) would come back on top as the last man standing.

    It isn't rocket surgery to build a list of manufacturers and Country of Origin paper trail to go back to halting shipments at the border. While it's true that most orders would still make it through, all it would take is a few "examples" being made of some poor saps who bought supplies through the mail and the KGB - I mean FDA, would succesfully scare most people out of vaping.
  11. DRR91075

    DRR91075 Full Member ECF Veteran

    Sep 20, 2009
    Oh No! Did Mark Levin and Glen Beck have a child together?

    Seriously, jadeninja, progressives are not your enemy on this one. We (yes, I am a progressive) are vapers too and we don't like it any more than you. This is not a left vs. right issue. I've written my representatives and senators. Everyone should do the same. It is our only recourse.
  12. olderthandirt

    olderthandirt Vaping Master Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Mar 28, 2009
    Willamette Valley, PNW
    Agree with DRR on that one! In another thread today, Bardic Druid reminded of a similar bill, H.R. 1676. This one actually made it out of committee and as far as a vote in the House of Representatives. The only significant difference between the 2 bills is that H.R.1676 excludes cigars and S. 1147 includes cigars.

    What is relevant here, I think it is at least, is how the vote went on H.R. 1676.
    Dems Yea 238, Nay 2 and No Vote 15
    Reps Yea 159, Nay 9 and No Vote 10.

    No, progressives, conservatives, not the issue. $$ and perceived lost revenue is the crux on this particular one.

    Damn, into committee, out of committee, to the "floor" for a vote back to... I need to redo a civics class to keep this all straight in my old head... [​IMG]
  13. jadeninja

    jadeninja Senior Member ECF Veteran

    If we have to rely on P-BO or big tobacco, then we are all doomed. And being from Illinois, which governor:lol:, cuz we are about to have 2 in a row go to jail.

    The thing that is on our side is the facts. E cigs contain no known carcinogens, (execept for tobacco based nitrosamines and in such a small amount that it is more harmful to eat a fried chicken leg than vape).
    Ecigs have revolutionalized nicotine intake. They are taking off like wild fire.

    We stand up for our rights, they will not be able to ban them. Regulate at best, they may try, but will fail. BUT, we must stand up to the powers that be. We must email, write, call, show up, and get in the face of these bureaucrats and politicians and say, "No, you will not take away our right to have our nicotine." "No, you will not stand in the way of small businesses sprouting up all over the nation." "NO YOU WILL NOT BAN E CIGS, BECAUSE IF YOU DO THEN BAN TOBACCO ALTOGHETHER"

    For them to stand in the way of a really safer alternative is ludicrous. It will not stand. We will bring doctors, lawyers, like minded politicans and they will see the light. It doesn't make sense.

    I am also really tired of hearing the arguement about taxing and regulation and "Big Tobacco" and all the rest. When the hell are we going to get off our collective asses and stand up to this. This is AN INNOVATION THAT HAS REVOLUTIONALIZED SMOKING AND CONSUMPTION OF NICOTINE!!!! Not since the invention of the FREAKING light bulb, personal computer, or the internet has a device come along that has really changed things for the better for thousands on thousands and soon to be millions upon millions of people. I will NOT HAVE THIS TAKEN AWAY ANY MORE THAN MY MORNING CUP OF COFFEE OR THE BRITS ON THIS BOARD WOULD BE PARTED WITH THEIR 4 O'CLOCK TEA.

    So stop whining about lobby groups and tax hungry congressmen and do something. Talk to smokers, let them try vaping, get them to try and maybe convert. The more numbers we have the better. Address the FDA's concerns; demand ingredients labels from eliquid and cart distributors. I only buy liquid from companies that list ingredients. The stupid "it's for the children" card is just that, stupid. YOU HAVE TO BE 18 OR OLDER TO HAVE A CREDIT CARD OR BANK ACCOUNT WITH DEBIT CAPABILITIES WITH ONLY YOUR NAME. If they want to stop sales to minors, the tools are already there. If you give a kid a debit card, the kid buys e-cigs online, and has them shipped to your house, and has the equipment in your house and you are too stupid or absent to notice, THEN YOU GET FINED. Enough of this. ENOUGH ENOUGH E - GOD - DAMN NOUGH.

    We can't count on Barack Hussein Obama, Nanny State Pelosi, Harry "Realestate" Reid, Little **** Durbin, or any of the politicians or bureaucrats to do a thing for us. So we stand up, in great number,s NOT TO BE IGNORED.

    Do your part, what ever that is, what ever you think will work (legally). Make your voice heard.

    Jason :-x
  14. jadeninja

    jadeninja Senior Member ECF Veteran

    Thanks for the insult, I guess that's what that's suppose to be. Firstly, progressivism is not really a right or left belief. It happens to be shared by both parties. Dare I say it, George W. Bush is a progressive(Medicare Rx, No Child Left Behind, Every Spending Bill that crossed his desk, Nation building, I can go on). A true progressive believes in the growth of government as a protector of it's citizenry in all aspects of life. True progressivism seeks a society that works towards collective goal set forth by the leadership of the society to futher the common good. In the process, it crushes individualism. It crushes the entrepreneurial drive. Most e-cig retailers are entrepreneurs. This is the progressive mentality. Progressivism takes it's roots back to Teddy Roosevelt (a republican) and Woodrow Wilson (well if you can't say anything nice . . . )

    Progressivism in it's roots, believed in eugenics. During the 20's and 30's eugenics (the breeding out of the undesirable) was explored as policy of the US during this period, and in the 40's carried out by the National Socialist Party in Germany.

    With that flash grenade, most modern day progressive ideology has turned away from the eugenics idea from actual people, and cast in the light of the structure of society and it's innerworkings as a whole. The modern day progressive focuses more on behaviors of people (example, the anti smoking lobby & the anti transfat lobby) These progressives really only want to help people live and be better people for the betterment of society as a whole. A progressive in power looks at the people as in need of compassion and help in the right direction. (Read any health departments goals and initiative standards) Because we don't know any better. . .

    So we can stop with the RIGHT or LEFT crap, because progressivism calls home to both sides. The policital spectrum is not linear. It's multi dimensional. POLISCI 101. Not to be insulting to anyone, but to be a true progressive, you are willing to sacrifice liberty for security. A famous quote from one of the founders, if you haven't heard it you should look it up.
  15. olderthandirt

    olderthandirt Vaping Master Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Mar 28, 2009
    Willamette Valley, PNW
    Aww c'mon Jason, tell us how ya really feel. lame J/K :D

    Seriously though, wouldn't better understanding of the legislative processes involved in such as the fore mentioned bills be a valid approach to addressing our concerns?

    Indignant voices are only a small part of the actions that need to be taken by "we the people". Actions that hit the parties we whine about where it hurts, their bank accounts, will go much further I'm thinking.

    Study and understanding of the legislative process identifies the politicos that need to be spanked. Calm and methodical campaigns by "we the people" to the people in all states and districts to unseat said identified politicos will either in fact unseat them or wake em up that they might lose their jobs, hence hit em in their wallets.

    just sayin....

    OBTW, 2 of the 3 Co-sponsers of H.R. 1676 are Republican, Issa from CA and Smith from TX
  16. jadeninja

    jadeninja Senior Member ECF Veteran

    I am with you on the money issue. It's always about "OUR" money, and how much can they take. Please take a minute to glance at my polisci101 post. Many people think that when I say progressive I mean democrat. I don't. There are just as many progressives in the republican party as there are with the dems. Progressivism is a term loosely thrown around and link to liberalism, it's not. There are good democrats out there that believe in constituionalism. Problem is there is not enough of them in office. Most people who think they are progressives might change their tune when they find out what it is really about.

    It's one of those feel good terms. I mean who wants to stand it the way of "progress". Question is: "Progress" twords what?

    I keep this up, I am going to own this page of the thread.


  17. jadeninja

    jadeninja Senior Member ECF Veteran

    You got my point! It's not just about being indignant. Although, that can be fun! You just pointed out an idea. That's what I meant in my last paragraph. Brainstorm and idea. Little fire and brimstone. Making people aware and to participate in the political process at the local level, the primary level, the caucus level, and the national level.

    I want to get people fire up. Then they ask themselves and others the question, "What can I do now?"

    And if I may point out, you may have answer that question for one or more. So PHAT PROPS. :thumb: That's what we need. Ideas through engagement.
  18. olderthandirt

    olderthandirt Vaping Master Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Mar 28, 2009
    Willamette Valley, PNW
    And I thank you! Made me look into the term progressive as it's used in politics. Yep, I had liberal in mind and nothing more. Appears to be so wrong!

    Community college, civics 101, ayup! I need to be there!
  19. jadeninja

    jadeninja Senior Member ECF Veteran

    I just got a 401 with a USB passthrough and IT IS AWESOME. Vaping some JC Peach, which is very tasty (reduced PG formula). Dip method, no cart. MAD VAPOR, SIC THROAT HIT, AWESOME FLAVOR.
  20. jadeninja

    jadeninja Senior Member ECF Veteran

    No problem, and props for wanting to continue education. I have been a political junkie since I could talk. I love arguing politics. If I could vape political science, I would:p

    Hey Johnson Creek, get on that for me.
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