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Update:ny child dies of nicotine poisoning.

Discussion in 'Media and General News' started by skoony, Dec 29, 2014.

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  1. zoiDman

    zoiDman My -0^10 = Nothing at All* ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Apr 16, 2010
    So-Cal
    ECf Members should Contact the Watertown Daily Times and remind them that Everything can be a Poison. That it Depends on the Dose and Not the Substance.

    But More Importantly, Members should ask for Information regarding how the Watertown Daily Times obtained access to the Official Cause of Death?

    Watertown Daily Times | Local News, Sports, Features, and Community Information for Jefferson County, St. Lawrence County, and Lewis County in Northern New York.
     
  2. four2109

    four2109 Ultra Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    May 9, 2009
    S. Indiana
    Can't get that link to work.:(

    Never mind, found it.
     
  3. four2109

    four2109 Ultra Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    May 9, 2009
    S. Indiana
    Yeah, I keep my liquid nicotine in a glass vial in the bathroom...! WT??
    It's a safe bet the paper didn't even write that article.
     
  4. Zebra Puzzle

    Zebra Puzzle Full Member

    Oct 21, 2014
    Poland
  5. Kent C

    Kent C ECF Guru Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Jun 12, 2009
    NW Ohio US
    We should have our own 'Wikipedia-type' page that responds to each negative point with studies. Possibly telling the non-objective editing problems that Dr.MA has run into trying to get it right.
     
  6. skoony

    skoony Vaping Master ECF Veteran

    Jul 31, 2013
    saint paul,mn,usa
    its just a rehash from earlier reports which are pretty much cut and paste jobs.
    regards
    mike
     
  7. four2109

    four2109 Ultra Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    May 9, 2009
    S. Indiana
    This death was referenced in the Indiana committee hearing for Senate Bill 539 (e-liquid regulation). It lives.:facepalm:
     
  8. philoshop

    philoshop Ultra Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Sep 21, 2014
    geneva, ny, usa
    The essence of propaganda, and the key to it's effectiveness, is that you can't put the toothpaste back in the tube.
     
  9. renacer

    renacer Senior Member

    Jan 27, 2015
    Clearwater, FL
    Ban e-liquid. Wait, that's not right.

    Ban incompetent parents.
     
  10. sofarsogood

    sofarsogood Vaping Master ECF Veteran

    Oct 12, 2014
    I'm a bit less than 4 months vaping, new to all this and oblivious to the issues before that (I don't watch TV). I've been scouring the web for recent news stories and finding lots of them. Today I went looking for past news and found youtube videos of reports going back 4 years. Those stories sounded almost the same as what I'm reading today. So two sides dug in, exchanging fire, day after day, month after month. The arguments of the anti's haven't changed at all. They have learned nothing new. They can't find people sickened by vaping so they torture mice?

    On the pro vaping side what's changed is the number of smokers adopting ecigs has increased dramatically and the rate of growth seems to be increasing. Apparently the scrare tactics aren't so effective. Am I right that the FDA has been promising since 2011 to start regulating any day now? The last I heard about them is they say they don't have enough science to regulate and seem to say that will take years more? The FDA would think twice before relying on junk science because many other nations seem to rely on various FDA determinations for all sorts of medicines, foods, etc.

    Is this e-cig fight an annual ritual?

    P.S. How about, Tobacco is slavery. Governments take most of the money so they are the slave masters. E-cigs are the underground railroad. It's time to free the slaves.
     
  11. four2109

    four2109 Ultra Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    May 9, 2009
    S. Indiana
    Since 2009 that I'm aware of. It's the states you have to worry about right now.
     
  12. Robino1

    Robino1 Resting in Peace ECF Veteran

    The FDA finally published their deeming proposal. We were all encouraged to voice our concerns and opinions, which most of us did. The deeming proposal is supposed to happen in June. (?)

    It has been too quiet on the FDA front. Which worries the heck out of me...
     
  13. LaraC

    LaraC Senior Member ECF Veteran

    Jan 6, 2013
    Tennessee
    I think the FDA is continuously working very hard out of sight behind closed doors. Working hard to be sure the non-smoking, non-vaping majority of "the public" is fed enough bogus scare stories that "the public" and the politicians supposedly representing "the public" will be enthusiastically on board when the hammer drops. Protecting the population at large; and of course, the blessed children.

    There also are probably a lot of out-of-sight private consultations going on between FDA and the big tobacco companies, ironing out the details of exactly what kind of "closed system" cig-alikes will make it through the million dollar acceptance process... after the hammer drops.

    It takes a lot of carefully and copiously applied bull$*** to fertilize the ground to serve as a cemetery for smokers who might otherwise have switched to vaping -- without looking like you really want all of them to just quit or die.
     
  14. sofarsogood

    sofarsogood Vaping Master ECF Veteran

    Oct 12, 2014
    I'm amazed at the outright lying of the other side. They lie with confidence and arrogance. I've seen that before. They believe they will get their way regardless of the merits. If they are right what's the point of being political and when do I start stockpiling nic and some simple devices?

    All sides have had years to inform each other and nothing has moved an inch. Most amazing to me are proposals to outlaw possession by kids. They are the ones who need protection. If the e-cig flavors appeal to kids they also make cigarettes taste bad, a good thing. If nicotine is barely or not reinforcing in never smokers the same is going to be true with kids who never smoked so how addicted can they get? Is anybody investigating the gateway theory? Are there any statistics or data from the vaping industry about how many newbies are starting and how things turn out?

    The vapers and the vape industry are not making their strong arguments. Why not?
     
  15. rolygate

    rolygate Forum Manager Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Sep 24, 2009
    ECF Towers
    Well, there are different ways to go about it. The foundation is to join and help your national consumer group, since unless people do that, the basics are not being covered.

    After that it's a matter of sophisticated allocation of resources. In other words, goals have to be set and worked toward. For example the two priorities right now are (1) fighting corrupt and unjust local legislation and (b) fighting back against the propaganda. No other issue is remotely as important (including yet more research to be completely ignored).


    That may be necessary when the FDA deeming proposals are published and they eventually lead to restrictive regulations and taxes; and if the proposals / regulations survive legal challenge. As of now we have some way to go before the 'apocalypse' situation arises. In any case, the black market will fill in the holes left by corrupt laws. The main result of a black market taking over a legal one is that prices go up and quality goes down, and availability is reduced. There will be a difficult time period between harsh regulations being imposed and then surviving legal obstacles, and the FDA enforcing the new laws on vendors by closing them down, and the black market replacing all the online and B&M vendors who close up. During that time slot, supplies will be very restricted. There is probably a long way to go yet until we see that point (at least a year and maybe up to three years). No action needed as yet, as far as stockpiling goes. If we are very, very lucky, then perhaps the rubbish the FDA intend to implement in order to protect drug sales (by protecting cigarette sales and the disease they cause) will be struck down by the courts.


    If you mean about there being a lack of any gateway effect in (a) never-smokers becoming vapers, and/or (b) never-smokers transitioning to smoking via vaping, then obtaining the data is not easy. It has only been obtained and openly published in the UK, where Prof West runs the only honest, up-to-date smoking and vaping statistics-gathering operation in the world - the Smoking Toolkit study. See:

    Smoking In England | Welcome
    Latest Statistics - Smoking In England
    STS Documents - Smoking In England
    BMC Public Health | Full text | 'The Smoking Toolkit Study': A national study of smoking and smoking cessation in England
    http://www.rjwest.co.uk/links.php

    These stats are remarkably cheap to obtain and process, considering, but of course they primarily require an independent person or body to organise, run and oversee the project. West doesn't care what the results show as long as smoking is being reduced, and recognises that THR is an efficient way to go about that*. The results are very clear indeed:

    - Insignificant numbers of never-smokers and youth are becoming vapers
    - Smoking prevalence has just started to show a fall in the UK after 5 years stuck at ~20% despite millions of pounds wasted on ineffective ways to reduce it
    - The reduction in the number of smokers almost exactly equals the number of vapers switching to ecigs

    So as far as the UK is concerned, we have an uncontestable answer: smoking prevalence is falling entirely due to vaping and there is no gateway of any kind (except of course the gateway out of smoking).

    * Many commentators believe that THR is the only way to significantly reduce smoking once certain conditions obtain (including me: http://www.ecigarette-politics.com/the-20-prevalence-rule.html ).


    The US problem
    This was achievable in the UK due to the tiny scale compared to the US. Only the CDC collects this sort of data, but they consistently lie about the results. Eventually, when the full dataset is released, observers are able to point out that everything the CDC says about the data has been a lie.

    So there are two separate issues here:

    1. Honest researchers appear harder to find in the USA. The problem may be caused by the vast amounts of money available to anyone prepared to lie about the issues. The UK is broke, by comparison, so the financial incentives to lie are not so prevalent.

    2. Until someone like Prof West can get some kind of similar operation to the Smoking Toolkit longitudinal surveys going in the USA (ongoing data retrieval that clearly identifies the trends), these stats will be unavailable for use. In other words, the government control the data and will lie about it blatantly for profit.

    Considering how (comparatively) cheap it is to get this data in the UK - peanuts by any US measurement of research costs - then it is likely that such a project would not cost a fortune even in the US. However, like all initiatives, it requires someone who is extremely determined to get the ball rolling. Such things have a snowball effect as more people come on board with the motivation to help it succeed, and then funding sources become available as a result. But it always requires that prime mover or nothing happens.

    Apparently there is no one at all in the USA who wants to see honest smoking and vaping statistics, and who is prepared to learn how to do it from Prof West.
     
  16. Bill Godshall

    Bill Godshall Executive Director<br/> Smokefree Pennsylvania ECF Veteran

    Apr 2, 2009
    rolygate wrote;

    Since 2009, I and other THR advocates have widely circulated lots of different published data that have consistently found e-cigs help many smokers quit and reduce cigarette consumption. While Robert West has his data for the UK, its far from the only relevant data on e-cigs. Also, please remember that Robert West was among those who claimed "there's no evidence e-cigs help smokers quit" until late in 2013.
     
  17. sofarsogood

    sofarsogood Vaping Master ECF Veteran

    Oct 12, 2014
    The 'no evidence' part confuses me. If there was something that addressed ebola as effectively as ecigs do smoking the developer would be up for a nobel in medicine. Part of my life has been as a garage inventor. My very first dumb kid invention had resemblences to today's vaping. Ecigs could have happened 40 years ago except batteries had about 1/3 the energy density and there would have been no digital controls but everything else was available. I read about Gilbert, he reminds me of me.

    There are people in this forum who have been involved in this from the start. I'm still playing catch up. Going back and reading the press of a few years back is depressing. Intellectually it's WWI style trench warfare. The army of vapers is growing to the point where that has to be acknowledged but it's characterized as a fad. I'm poking around for some ideas that force the debate to elevate.

    I know there are plenty of non smokers who agree with us but they are hard to find in the press. What surprises me the most is the view about kids. There should have been ecigs when I was a kid. It's better that ecig flavors appeal to kids because they make cigarettes taste awful. Since nic is barely habit forming to non smokers I would bet the kids will lose interest and if that takes a while at least they are vaping and not smoking. I' sure there are parents who get that. The anti folks raise their concerns about kids then show zero interest in finding out what kids are actually doing. Do we know any better than my hunches what kids are doing with ecigs?
     
  18. rolygate

    rolygate Forum Manager Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Sep 24, 2009
    ECF Towers
    Bill, of course you have done what you can with the resources available. What I'm talking about is an academic, with a team, with access to funds, who can set up a similar rolling programme of surveys and convert them into an ongoing study in the US. Admittedly it was easier in England as the government sponsors a survey process called YouGov that West's team tacked their questions onto, and the scale is so small in comparison. But considering the massive difference in the relative money pool in England vs the US (at least 10x in this area), it just seems extraordinary that no one has got something similar going in the USA.

    Yes, West's data is not the only source. Even the CDC data is useful once it can be independently analysed, but surely you would admit that if it were done properly - and honestly - in the US then the situation would be much better?

    And I agree that West cannot be considered perfectly accurate in every respect - but who can? He is notable as being what could be thought of as one of the old school psychologists who are years out of date and regard nicotine as an addictive drug, despite all the recent evidence that has completely destroyed that position (such as Newhouse's work); and his apparent contention that vaping did not affect smoking in any way until fairly recently seems a little hard to understand (although if that's what his figures for England say to him, then fair enough); and strangest of all, he appears to be an apologist for Chantix and has written a strong defence for it that appears to suggest it has no serious adverse effects at all and is about as harmful as repackaged vitamin C. He is what he is: an academic who has had to adjust to a new world order (new technology and the public fighting back against a corrupt public health industry) and is not entirely at ease with the situation as yet, and probably with way too much history in the academia-pharma-public health industry to see how strange that old alliance looks to modern eyes. It is said that he is uncomfortable with the overbearing influence pharma (money) has on this area, but the most obvious aspect to outsiders is how warped the whole system looks to fresh eyes, and how strange the old-fashioned views look that some academics have due to their inbuilt inertia. It's very noticeable when you attend a conference on these issues how out of date everyone is - even the leaders are clearly a year behind the curve.

    So we have to allow for a lot of inertia to be shifted before real progress can be made. Fagerstrom changed the name of his eponymous dependence test from 'nicotine' to 'smoking' some time back, but there are still academics who use the obsolete name; and who probably even still think it measures nicotine dependency and not smoking dependency. When academics confuse the effect of 9,600 compounds with the effect of one alone, you know there is still a lot of work to be done. It generally takes about 20 years...

    But in this world you take what you can get, and West has done a fine job with the smoking/vaping stats. Let's be clear about that. Until someone can match it, he is unique: an honest tobacco control industry staffer who has provided solid statistical evidence to fight the propaganda with and who won't toe the line for pharma. For that we are extremely grateful, and let's not forget it or try to make light of it either. It takes courage to do what he has done and there are plenty who just take the money and lie.
     
  19. sofarsogood

    sofarsogood Vaping Master ECF Veteran

    Oct 12, 2014
    What about studying the success of some vape speciality shops. How many newbies do they start and what happens to those people with their smoking? Success, however that's defined, isn't just the technology in the box, it's also the mentoring, encouragement, selection of devices, etc. Good numbers for a state of the art approach might encourage more smokers to give it a try. My local vape shop owner claims very high success rates but closer study might show different numbers. The tobacco control people show not the slightest interest in the possible benefits. They want to eradicate ecigs regardless of the merits. Tobacco control is really about controlling people and they are addicted to that, and the money.
     
  20. DC2

    DC2 Tootie Puffer Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Jun 21, 2009
    San Diego
    Most people out there still believe that nicotine is a poisonous, dangerous, highly-addictive drug.
    And as long as vapers are still using nicotine, the "success" you speak of just doesn't compute with them.

    I hope that changes sooner rather than later.
    But they will continue to cling to that ladder as long as they can.
     
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