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Update:ny child dies of nicotine poisoning.

Discussion in 'Media and General News' started by skoony, Dec 29, 2014.

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  1. Kent C

    Kent C ECF Guru Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Jun 12, 2009
    NW Ohio US
    We were back on topic. :) And this just confirms my earlier statement " And it doesn't take a 'Conspiracy theory' to see how the ANTZ have and will continue to make this a prime feature of their Anti-ecig programs and studies."

    Thanks for posting.....
  2. jpargana

    jpargana Super Member ECF Veteran

    Mar 5, 2010

    How dumb our society has become... :(

    "This Act may be cited as the 'Child Nicotine Poisoning Prevention Act of 2014''. "

    Really ?? IMHO, the BEST "Act" to prevent nicotine poisoning would be parents BEING parents. I mean, what will come next?

    The "Act cited as the 'Child Toothpaste Poisoning Prevention Act" ?

    The "Act cited as the 'Child House Cleaning Products Poisoning Prevention Act" ?

    The "Act cited as the 'Child Vitamins Poisoning Prevention Act" ?

    As much as I regret this child's death, I cannot leave behind the fact that because of the carelessness of others, because of other people's "childrun", our liberties as ADULTS is disappearing everyday. Our adult world, our adult lives, are slowly becoming a global kindergarden. :(
  3. Bill Godshall

    Bill Godshall Executive Director<br/> Smokefree Pennsylvania ECF Veteran

    Apr 2, 2009
    Note that all US House and Senate bills introduced in the 113th Congress (2013/14) are DEAD.

    The new 114th Congress can/will only pass bills introduced in 2015/16.
  4. skoony

    skoony Vaping Master ECF Veteran

    Jul 31, 2013
    saint paul,mn,usa
    hi all,
    i have spent the morning trying to track down the coroner of record.
    the Montgomery county coroner had already informed me that any
    autopsy or toxicology reports if any would have to come from Herkimer County
    as the child was pronounced dead there.
    i finally succeeded in getting in contact with the coroner of District 3,
    Herkimer County. i was informed by New York State law,which i confirmed,
    he was not allowed to discuss any aspect of the case unless i was next of
    kin or law enforcement.
    i further confirmed autopsy and toxicology reports are not public record
    and are protected even from FOIL(freedom of information laws) in the
    state of New York.
    the Fort Plains Police Dept has already stated they consider this an
    accident and as such i guess unless there is a law suite or criminal
    charge we will never get the facts.
    i haven't made up my mind what to think about this whole situation so,
    i think i'll give it some time to see if anything further shakes out.
    respectfully submitted.
  5. Jman8

    Jman8 Vaping Master ECF Veteran

    Jan 15, 2013
    Congratulations on your desperate, jerry springer-esque point that I shall now contend via reason just to keep our marriage healthy.

    It is inaccurate to state or imply that vaping is currently not somewhat regulated. For sure, there are already states / local municipalities that have weighed in with regulations. The common ingredients for eLiquid are seemingly already regulated.

    There are products that are legal (in some states) but illegal at the same time (in other states) and those would be examples of items, intended for human consumption, that are less regulated right now than vaping products are.

    The under regulated nature of eCigs (aka vaping) while the ingredients are regulated is similar to if I mixed soda with milk and started ingesting that and sharing it with people. I could claim that this is a great product simply because it is s not regulated. Likewise, a product like smoothies would be decent example of something that many people enjoy, is fairly popular, but is not really regulated. Anyone could put anything in a smoothie, sell it, and no one would regulate that currently, except in some local municipalities. The fact that liquid nicotine could theoretically be put into a smoothie, ought to mean that smoothies should be regulated under FSPTCA, by similar, if not same reasoning that is occurring with vaping. Or put another way, just because no nic smoothies exists doesn't mean that those shouldn't be as heavily regulated as a smoothie that could contain nicotine.

    The main point in current debate is that vapers, many of whom are ex-smokers, and who have dealt with ANTZ deception / propaganda for longer than the age of consent are really not okay that all vaping products are to be treated via oversight/regulations as if this is now equal to smoking. So, while I just shot down your point of "no products are unregulated as vaping is not," that's the desperate argument. The real argument is the smoking regulations and how overly and utterly zealous they have become plus that they are now up for consideration to apply to vaping. The more prudent consideration for society to think about is imagine if a product you consume were going to be regulated and constantly lambasted in the same vein as combustible tobacco. Like smoothies as an example. A child dies from ingesting nicotine and hey, let's now treat smoothies like BT makes them and are purely greedy and all daily smoothie drinkers are addicts who have no control over their use and need someone to step in and control all facets of their use, from how smoothie ingredients are marketed to where it is proper to enjoy one. Let's start with fact that no kid should ever be allowed to have/buy one, and if you can go along with that, then just realize that we will forever have an inroad to doing virtually whatever we want, cause even you agree that kids ought to be protected from smoothies. Those evil products that some weird adults enjoy.

    And the other side of the argument, that I will make, while many politically aware vapers will argue otherwise, is that vaping is going to be fine in a regulated market. But less fine than the under regulated market and unfairly treated if equal to smoking which is the epitome of unfair treatment for a product. I can't think of any product allowed on the legal market, ever, that is treated as poorly by the masses as smoking. Guns and alcohol would be up there, but way more sympathizers on those products than with smoking. There are places on the planet where you can use alcohol and guns indoors (though not together) and vast majority are very okay with that in designated indoor locations.

    I also see the fight for vaping as a very good thing that has ramifications for either other currently existing products (such as traditional cigarettes) or other potential products (such as soda which is on the docket for heavy regulations). Vapers may not get 100% what they want, but the fight they are lodging is respectable and second only right now to fight against prohibition on alcohol. And this is occuring in the under regulated market.
  6. caramel

    caramel Vaping Master

    Dec 23, 2014
    Here are some statistics to put things into perspective:

    How about setting the priorities straight? Do we already have the Child Harm from Falling Prevention Act? How about the Child Harm from Gardens Prevention Act? Or maybe the Child Tripping on Toys Prevention Act?
  7. Bill Godshall

    Bill Godshall Executive Director<br/> Smokefree Pennsylvania ECF Veteran

    Apr 2, 2009
    skoony wrote

    Seems like the only ways to find out what the autopsy found is to contact family members or find a law enforcer who will contact the coroner.

    Until then, we can and should point out that there is still no evidence confirming that the child died from ingesting e-liquid (as was reported by many news outlets).
  8. four2109

    four2109 Ultra Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    May 9, 2009
    S. Indiana
    Yeah, and hope something even more reckless wasn't covered up by blaming nicotine.
  9. sofarsogood

    sofarsogood Vaping Master ECF Veteran

    Oct 12, 2014
    When this issue comes up I'm going to say there is no evidence that a child died from nicotine poisoning, only rumors and if someone has better evidence than that they should show it or stop making a claim for which they have no evidence.

    A different topic for which there seems to be no appropriate catagory.

    Reports that kids are experienting with vaping are only reports of experimenting, not reports of them becoming habitual users. The reason is because all they are doing is experimenting. Common sense provides the reason. The only adults who are becoming habitual vapers are habitual smokers trying to reduce their smoking or become non smokers. The same pattern applies to kids for the same reason. Vaping does not create new habitual users from people who never smoked because nicotine alone is not as habit forming as tobacco. Otherwise nicotine patches and gum could not be over the counter products.
  10. skoony

    skoony Vaping Master ECF Veteran

    Jul 31, 2013
    saint paul,mn,usa
    i have no wish to intrude upon the family members.
    a person fro the New York state health dept. returned
    a call to me this morning. i' paraphrasing but,the gist
    i got was medical examiner reports are only made
    available to next of kin and to law enforcement if enforcement is obligated to keep them
    all we have to go on is what can be gathered from initial
    news sources including one with family members.
    from what i piece together the child whether in the care
    of family members a parent and or both wanted to see
    sponge bob.i digress here but it was mentioned because
    of a recent move there were unpacked wasn't clear
    why that was important.back to sponge bob. someone
    retrieved a tape or dvd of sponge bob and started playing it.
    when that person turned around the child was on the floor
    apparently in convulsions. medical help was summoned
    but the child passed out before help arrived. paramedics
    started resuscitation and transported the child to a hospital
    in Little Falls New York where the child was pronounced dead.
    i talked to one of the officers that responded to the call.
    all he would tell me is when he arrived the medics were there
    and almost immediately transported the child.there was a bottle
    of liquid nicotine on the table.he would only refer to it as a bottle
    of liquid nicotine.he also said this all took place very fast.
    i assumed he meant fro the time the child ingested the nicotine
    until emergency responders were notified.its interesting to note
    that when ever the nicotine is mentioned its always on the table
    in a bottle. not in the child's hands or next to the child on the floor
    or anywhere else. just there,on the table.from what i gather no one
    actually saw the child ingest the nicotine.
    if anyone can elaborate further i'd appreciate it.
    so that's all i got for now.
  11. Tache

    Tache Super Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Jun 25, 2013
    BC Canada

    I can only speak for myself, but I truly appreciate the extra efforts you have made to try and bring the facts to us. I'm going to assume (and I may certainly be wrong) but I would expect that the majority of people who have been following this thread are very much saddened that someone has lost their child - irrespective of how that death actually came about. Those who have taken the time to read articles by scientists such as Meyer will have a hard time trying to rationalize how even a child could be poisoned by DIY nicotine - never mind regular e-liquid. I'm open to the possibility, but still somewhat sceptical.

    What we have to deal with is how those opposed to the concept of vaping will use this particular incident. It's all about context. Many more children have died from numerous other dangers in our day-to-day world. There are links within this thread that provide various levels of support for this position. All of us need to make sure we have those available to respond to challenges within our own jurisdictions.
  12. sofarsogood

    sofarsogood Vaping Master ECF Veteran

    Oct 12, 2014
    Apparently the police cannot disclose the cause of death by law because any and all documents that would establish that are confidential by law in New York. There are a number of possible accidental caues of death that have nothing to do with niciotine or where niciotine was involved but the cuase of death was mistaken actions by responders. Anybody who claims the child died from nicotine poisoning without producing more than hearsay is speculating or lying. Personally I have no problem with safety packaging. I bet government agencies already have administrative authority and don't need legislation to impose it on e liquid.. The legislation might just be grandstanding. We already know the anti vaping people are shameless liars who will make victims out of anything and anybody to protect their money. BTW I believe New York has the highest tobacco taxes in the nation. Anything they do or say negatively about vaping is nothing more than a drug cartel protecting it's business.
  13. eudox

    eudox Full Member Verified Member

    Nov 16, 2014
    1. How on earth can a kid have access to such poison?

    2. Whatever type of poison was on that table, if that kid drinks it he will still die. Not necessarily Nic, or Nic for ecigs.

    Vaping is NOT the headline here, neither is Nic. It is accident, and ignorance. Unless someone wants it otherwise.

    How many car accident happened during the last few years caused by teenagers driving recklessly?
    Should we ban all teenagers for driving? Or the car? Or the make of the car? Or the model of the car? Or the brand of the tires on the car?
  14. skoony

    skoony Vaping Master ECF Veteran

    Jul 31, 2013
    saint paul,mn,usa
    i believe the police report itself is in the public domain.
    when i talked to the chief he told me the only way i would get it
    was through the FOIL.(freedom of info laws) last i new the
    investigation was still open.
    this is the only first hand account of the story i could find.
    "When (redacted) brought (redacted) to her new home, (redacted) asked for his favorite show, ''SpongeBob SquarePants,'' saying "Bob, Bob, Bob."

    When she turned around from putting the show on, (redacted) was lying on the floor, convulsing, and his eyes were rolling back in his head, she said.

    She made (redacted) vomit to get the poison out and then called 911. Emergency medical personnel worked on him for what seemed like a long time before the ambulance took him to Little Falls Hospital, (redacted) said, adding "I kept on asking if he's breathing."

    Around 6 p.m. (redacted) was pronounced dead. Fort Plain police deemed the cause of death accidental."
    i have redacted the names as i feel at this point they are unnecessary.
    as you can see there's not much there.there.
    what intrigues me is the lack of a total lack of coverage from the national
    news outlets and lack of any in depth questions put to the mother when
    the chance presented it.
    where was the bottle of nic,before,during and after the child's poisoning?
    no one actually witnessed the child ingesting the nic. how and why do
    they assume it was the nic?
    the only time its referenced its stated and i quote"there was a jar of liquid
    nicotine on the table".
    i don't know what to think either. i'll give it another month to see if the
    police finish their investigation.after that all bets are off.
  15. four2109

    four2109 Ultra Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    May 9, 2009
    S. Indiana
    Yeah Mike, That's why I tend to think something else happened and we may never know. I really appreciate your effort in finding the details of this story.
  16. DrMA

    DrMA Ultra Member ECF Veteran

    Jan 26, 2013
    Seattle area
  17. sofarsogood

    sofarsogood Vaping Master ECF Veteran

    Oct 12, 2014
    Because the details of this death are not disclosed there is still no confirmed case of accidental nicotine poisoning as a cause of death. It's as simple as that.
  18. skoony

    skoony Vaping Master ECF Veteran

    Jul 31, 2013
    saint paul,mn,usa
    till if and when something changes,thats my story and i'm sticking
    to it.
  19. Painter_

    Painter_ Super Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Dec 21, 2013
    In my happy place
    www. watertowndailytimes .com/article/20150126/CURR/150129166

    This was posted today.

    Safe alternative? Liquid nicotine used in e-cigarettes can be lethal, experts warn

    I wonder if they have confirmed this information or if they are just running what was in the prior articles. I would guess the latter since the media does not have to do any fact checking.
  20. Lessifer

    Lessifer Vaping Master Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Wow, that was the worst case of "let's just put anything we can find, and quote a bunch of people who know nothing about the topic, as long as they say something bad" that I have ever seen.
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