Vapelicious?

[DVap]

Hmmm... I'd have to have more information to know for certain how the terms are being defined.

You could do WTA a couple ways:

1. WTA Spiked into nicotine (WTA containing minor alkaloids and nicotine) plus more nicotine. This would result in a spread not in line with the natural spread, enhanced in nicotine. Nothing really wrong with this, I guess.

2. WTA as the only alkaloid bearing component.

 

[stefania123]

WTA should follow the spread. Making a liquid with no nicotine would not be WTA as the "W" in "WTA" stands for "Whole". I can't imagine anyone with a liquid containing only the minor alkaloid portion of the alkaloid spread... I know I couldn't make it and I wouldn't want to vape it.

The 30 mg WTA, which is pretty potent stuff, is 95% (28.5 mg/mL) in nicotine, and 5% (1.5 mg/mL) in all the other alkaloids combined.

You must not assume that the mg strength of WTA refers to just the minor alkaloids, it refers to the total alkaloid concentration, I.E. nicotine plus all the minor alkaloids. While WTA is mostly nicotine, the 5% other alkaloids is where the magic is.

edit:

To add something, one might ask, "Can't you then start with just nicotine and add the 5% other alkaloids to get WTA?". The answer is "No" for two reasons:

1. When you extract tobacco, you get 95% nicotine and 5% other alkaloids. Very sophisticated techniques could be used to separate the minor alkaloids from the nicotine, but this would be extremely involved and astronomically expensive. Far easier to extract WTA and simply dilute with PG/VG.

2. When you start messing with the product and changing it, it is no longer WTA. I define WTA as the UNMODIFIED alkaloid spread extracted from whole tobacco. I can do that 'cuz I created the term and I get to define it.

Hi Dvap.. an honor for us that u showed up, thanks

 

[stefania123]

So then, how is Ethan adding 'extra WTA' to his juice? This has been my question on this subject particularily, how is he altering the roughly 5 percent that isnt nicotine? It doesnt make sense to me, at all.

 

[DVap]

I don't know how Ethan does things or defines things. I've spoken to him briefly in the past, but I didn't much care for him, and moved on.

 

[Mr.Mann]

So then, how is Ethan adding 'extra WTA' to his juice? This has been my question on this subject particularly, how is he altering the roughly 5 percent that isn't nicotine? It doesn't make sense to me, at all.

I guess, as has been pointed out to me, it wouldn't be adding extra WTA to the juice unless the nic went up right along with it. I do like how the term "defined" is being used. I think this may be where particulars lie.

 

[stefania123]

Well, Dvap, thank you for all the great work you do glad to see you're still around, ive read many of your posts.

 

[DVap]

I'm headed to bed. I'll think a bit about things and some of the questions I've seen, and try to come up with my version of the questions that should be asked, and how they ought to be asked.

edit:

Thanks stefania. I'll likely go back to lurking soon, but like it says, I'm only "mostly retired".

 

[stefania123]

I guess, as has been pointed out to me, it wouldn't be adding extra WTA to the juice unless the nic went up right along with it. I do like how the term "defined" is being used. I think this may be where particulars lie.

it is quite confusing. Sometimes, he suggests the alkaloids other than nicotine are raised or separate and sometimes he suggests that the whole WTAs are added at different levels to separate nicotine levels.

 

[stefania123]

Anyways.. I think im going to move on on this one with Dvap.

I really have no clue what he is doing, i just know it doesnt make sense, and im not about to try his juice anytime soon.

 

[AnthonyB]

I think you've raised some very important considerations about how the WTA liquids are used.

What I like about Aroma-ejuice (apart from what I've already said about their juices and their effects on me in a prior post) is that Jerry has a business model where he clamps his product with certain parameters, namely that he restricts his WTA to 5%. This must be a mixture they came up with that adequately simulates the experience of a cigarette without turning WTA in the newest drug sensation.

I think it's a decision that is ethical, responsible and upholds what WTA juices ought to represent. It's damn smart too because it also allows them to spread their product out to the queue of people waiting for WTA liquids. It's a prudent business move in a market where they almost have an exclusive monopoly and have a large demand for their product which they have scarce quantities of and takes time to manufacturer.

WTA's intended purpose is to offer those with a difficulty in breaking the cigarette habit completely an alternative, more fuller vaping experience. It should not, in my mind, be intended to provide the consumer with a greater level of drug induction that's only going to increase desensitization and create possible complications further down the line.

I find Aroma-ejuice's customer service and product to be consistent, efficient in delivery and processing and having a quality of customer service which goes a bit beyond just the ordinary minimal level of maintenance. I think their policy on restricting WTA quantities is ethical and responsible. For an enterprise that has a virtual monopoly on WTA's I think its exceptional and exemplary. I think that not only do they exercise in customer care but offer a kind of care to the vaping community as a whole.

Just as nobody should be sending out liquids with obscene amounts of nicotine it stands to reason that an ethical and conscientious shouldn't be sending out liquids with obscene amounts of WTA and it probably shouldn't even be offered. It's that kind of vendor behaviour that will only expedite the intervention of the FDA.

I could say that when I first started smoking, the nicotine seemed less and less, I dunno, effective? until I was up to a pack a day.

I have read similar stories from people who have tried Ethan's WTA and in every case, I remember thinking, I never got that kind of a reaction, even after I smoked after quitting for several days, or even from when I first started smoking. So I have to ask, is getting a pack to a carton's worth of tobacco alkaloids in one vape session something that we should want or encourage? I remember when I first got Jerry's (Aroma E-Juice) WTA, and I ignored the instructions about shaking the bottle up. That last couple of ml packed a punch. Every bottle I have gotten since then, I have shaken well. Why? because I don't need something that makes me feel better than smoking a cigarette. I just need something that cuts down on the urges while I get myself over that hump. More "mellow and relaxed" while nice, isn't necessary, and I have to wonder if chasing that dragon won't cause more problems for ex-smokers than it solves. I've been vaping nothing but WTA juices for the last 2 months and it has gotten me off of the cigarettes (for about two weeks now). Now I'm in the process of cutting back on my WTA and switching to the same flavor non-WTA juices.

Before I started using WTA, when I was in the process of deciding who I would order from, I came across this thread that Ethan from Vapelicious started. Want to Try Whole Tobacco Alkaloid eLiquid? You know what they say about first impressions. I walked away from that thread with a bad taste in my mouth and I will not do business with someone who disrespects not only his competition, but also Dvap, who pioneered this process.

I do think it's funny that the only two vendors who offer WTA have such different operations. Aroma has a reputation for being the quickest shipper in the ejuice industry, while Vapelicious has the slowest order fulfillment of anyone...except Jbox.

I'm biased, I'll admit it. But it was a bias brought about through reading what both Ethan and Jerry have written about themselves, their customers, and their competition, not through reading reviews about their products or other people's comments.

EDIT: To my knowledge, Jerry has never written anything negative about Ethan or Vapelicious, the same cannot be said of Ethan.

 

[AnthonyB]

*Bows to the man*

Hmmm... I'd have to have more information to know for certain how the terms are being defined.

You could do WTA a couple ways:

1. WTA Spiked into nicotine (WTA containing minor alkaloids and nicotine) plus more nicotine. This would result in a spread not in line with the natural spread, enhanced in nicotine. Nothing really wrong with this, I guess.

2. WTA as the only alkaloid bearing component.

 

[stefania123]

Have a good sleep Dvap Hope to catch you online again sometime soon- your wisdom is always appreciated.

 

[Mr.Mann]

it is quite confusing. Sometimes, he suggests the alkaloids other than nicotine are raised or separate and sometimes he suggests that the whole WTAs are added at different levels to separate nicotine levels.

'Tis a conundrum.

Oh, and I just realized that I did something that I asked, basically, that you not do. I told Dvap that I read something somewhere, not giving a link, that he vaped the minor alkaloids by themselves. Luckily he was here to tell me that made no sense, but I think that I, in my haste come up with a good question, made my point that a link is always best. I love to help! But don't get it twisted, I am very aware of the fact that I was mistaken when it came to reading the mg of WTA as being somehow, devoid (?) of nicotine.

 

[redrose]

I know certain people bring up the "but where's the tests?" question every time WTA is mentioned. Jerry has said that the tests are available to anyone who wants to come to the lab and view them.

Because of non-disclosure agreements with the tester, he cannot make them publicly available without redacting portions of the test (i.e. who the tester is) because of this, Jerry is reluctant to show them to the community at large because he is concerned that people would think he is deliberately trying to mislead them. I personally think that Jerry is misjudging his audience in this case, but there will always be those who see the worst in people, just as there are those who look at the world through rose tinted glasses.

I don't understand this. Are there not testers without non-disclosure agreements? Aren't there testers willing to publicly disclose who they are and what their results are? Is there not some requirement for random and periodic sampling for a test to still have validity over time?

 

[redrose]

I think you've raised some very important considerations about how the WTA liquids are used.

What I like about Aroma-ejuice (apart from what I've already said about their juices and their effects on me in a prior post) is that Jerry has a business model where he clamps his product with certain parameters, namely that he restricts his WTA to 5%. This must be a mixture they came up with that adequately simulates the experience of a cigarette without turning WTA in the newest drug sensation.

I think it's a decision that is ethical, responsible and upholds what WTA juices ought to represent. It's damn smart too because it also allows them to spread their product out to the queue of people waiting for WTA liquids. It's a prudent business move in a market where they almost have an exclusive monopoly and have a large demand for their product which they have scarce quantities of and takes time to manufacturer.

WTA's intended purpose is to offer those with a difficulty in breaking the cigarette habit completely an alternative, more fuller vaping experience. It should not, in my mind, be intended to provide the consumer with a greater level of drug induction that's only going to increase desensitization and create possible complications further down the line.

I find Aroma-ejuice's customer service and product to be consistent, efficient in delivery and processing and having a quality of customer service which goes a bit beyond just the ordinary minimal level of maintenance. I think their policy on restricting WTA quantities is ethical and responsible. For an enterprise that has a virtual monopoly on WTA's I think its exceptional and exemplary. I think that not only do they exercise in customer care but offer a kind of care to the vaping community as a whole.

Just as nobody should be sending out liquids with obscene amounts of nicotine it stands to reason that an ethical and conscientious shouldn't be sending out liquids with obscene amounts of WTA and it probably shouldn't even be offered. It's that kind of vendor behaviour that will only expedite the intervention of the FDA.

Have you had an obscene amount of WTA? Please share the vendor link, I'd like to see who sells it

 

[PLANofMAN]

I don't understand this. Are there not testers without non-disclosure agreements? Aren't there testers willing to publicly disclose who they are and what their results are? Is there not some requirement for random and periodic sampling for a test to still have validity over time?

I was wondering when you were going to pick up on that post. 1. Probably. 2. Yes and probably. and 3.Yes.

Periodic sampling? Every single batch gets tested. That isn't a secret. My advice: Plan your next vacation in Arizona and look for yourself if it's that important to you. I'm willing to take the word of those who have visited Aroma's Lab and seen the process and looked at those reports.

My turn.

Frankly I'm far more concerned with what I read on Vapelicious's website tonight regarding thier WTA Faq.

Low
Medium (new Regular)
High
X-high (new Extra)

"This is always a separate choice besides the mg nicotine. WTA is more than just a single chemical, so we can’t just assign a mg strength to it like with nicotine. We do take the known nicotine from the WTA and balance it with regular nicotine to reach higher levels vapers want. There is not a drastic difference from one WTA level to another and the price is always equal to the amount you receive. All strengths seem to be in a nice range compared to what we got from using other forms of tobacco.

In choosing a strength consider if you are still using traditional tobacco alongside ecigs. A lot of individual factors determine which WTA level will work for you, the same as all types of people use different nicotine levels."

If his WTA product is so poorly refined that he has to add nicotine to it, where are the extra alkaloids coming from? Wouldn't such a product be expected to have a lower WTA component than a full spectrum WTA extraction?

Have you had an obscene amount of WTA? Please share the vendor link, I'd like to see who sells it

I've had an obscene amount of WTA. I buy it from ObsceneAmountofWTAJuices.com I've probably bought 100 ml from them over the course of the last 3 months or so.

 

[Mr.Mann]

Not to add more confusion, but I did some diggin' for links. Since I was there when these posts were made, I knew they were there. I have been mistaken with so many things and am still confused, and it likely started here, by the notion that 12 mg nic can have the same "values" or "amount," not percentages, of minor alkaloids that a 24 mg nic does. This lead me to believe, rightfully so, that the minor alkaloids, not WTA per se, were added in after the fact. These links can't be quotes properly because the threads are closed, but the link will take you to the post.

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...ell-us-your-experience-wta-2.html#post6408563
In a continued conversation about how to use the "WTA" concentrate, the vendor said:

"I'm working this out but when confirmed it will make no difference if you order high 24 MG nic or 12 MG nic when it comes to the amount of minor alkaloids in each bottle.

In simple terms you will get the same amount of minor alkaloids if you order 12 MG or 24 MG flavored eliquid. The only difference between the two is the amount of nicotine percentage".6.17.2012

+
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...ose-aroma-wta-real-cigarette.html#post6750143 This thread is closed now, so I can't directly quote it properly. In a response to a question about Aroma's WTA concentrate, not DIY, someone asked about nic percentages and amount of minor alkaloids, and here is what the vendor said:

"...the values of minor alkaloids are the same if you order low or high nic flavored WTA." 7.22.12

+

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...ive-us-something-help-us-out.html#post6471734 And in a response to a post about keeping costs down, the vendor said:

You nailed it down perfect. If I was the consumer which I am, I would probably order a bottle of WTA flavored and a bottle of flavored without WTA to cut it down. I would probably keep the strengths the same unless I was a 18MG vaper. As of Tuesday 6/19/12 all flavored WTA eliquids have the same amount of minor alkaloids. That being said if you ordered 12 MG GI Joe you would still have the same amount of minor alkaloids as if you ordered 24 MG of GI Joe. It took some extra work in the lab but I honestly believe that the consumer should get the same value even if they were vaping 12 MG eliquids. Isolating each alkaloid is not for the faint at heart. It probably puts an extra day to production on our process but I think the end user will appreciate the final outcome." 6.24.2012

I think I have proven myself to be more than capable of mixing things up, so if this is the case (again), forgive me for posting this. This is merely my way of reconciling what I remember (and have been able to find) with what I learned today. Maybe this process is new(er)? In the last post Radio speaks about his new (back then) process of, on "6/19/12" being able to regulate liquids to "all" have the "same amount of minor alkaloids." If this is the case, then it would make sense (uh oh, I am sticking my neck out) that more or less "amount(s)" of minor alkaloids could be added based on, say, the customers own needs? Or the based on the vendors own criteria?

I do like the idea of the spread, but the numbers (and I am no mathematician ) don't add up with 5% out of 12 mg being equal or the same as 5% in 24 mg. What I can say is this makes me feel better knowing, or (and I know I shouldn't) assuming that it can be done now.

Very sophisticated techniques could be used to separate the minor alkaloids from the nicotine, but this would be extremely involved and astronomically expensive. Far easier to extract WTA and simply dilute with PG/VG.

Seeing as how Aroma has such a well equipped lab, is it possible that this sophisticated technique has been achieved? I do love that Aroma opens its doors to people--not every vendor, and I mean any kind of vendor, will do that.

 

[Mr.Mann]

Man, so many questions!

 

[DVap]

If his WTA product is so poorly refined that he has to add nicotine to it, where are the extra alkaloids coming from? Wouldn't such a product be expected to have a lower WTA component than a full spectrum WTA extraction?

I said I was going to bed, but then I started into an expense report and pretty soon here I am again to answer your question in more detail than you could possibly want.

I don't agree with the statement:

"WTA is more than just a single chemical, so we can’t just assign a mg strength to it like with nicotine."

We can do that and with precision. Again, it's all in how you define WTA concentration. Here is how I define WTA concentration, and expect to see it defined by others.

If simple math makes your head go all swimmy, you might consider NOW as a good time to run far and run fast.

WTA concentration in mg/mL = total mg of alkaloid isolate per mL of e-liquid.

If I extract WTA from tobacco and purify it on a small scale, I might end up with 1 gram of pure WTA. This 1 gram of pure WTA will contain about 950 mg of nicotine and 50 mg of all other tobacco alkaloids combined.

If I take this 1 gram of pure WTA and dilute it to a final volume of 50 mL, the WTA concentration is:

1000 mg / 50 mL = 20 mg/mL.

Here's the important thing to remember: This applies to an e-liquid where the sole source of alkaloid content is from a purified WTA isolate.

So now we have 20 mg/mL WTA eliquid. I would call this a "WTA exclusive" e-liquid.

If you break down this 20 mg/mL WTA exclusive e-liquid into it's alkaloid "sub-concentrations (assuming the 95%/5% spread), then you get:

Nicotine concentration = 20 mg/mL * 0.95 = 19 mg/mL nicotine
Minor alkaloids (total) = 20 mg/mL * 0.05 = 1 mg/mL minor alkaloids combined

Again, this is a 20 mg/mL WTA exclusive e-liquid. It contains 20 mg of alkaloids per mL.

I would never call it a 1 mg/mL WTA e-liquid. I don't look at fractional components, I look at the whole.

We could look at a non-WTA exclusive e-liquid. I would define a non-WTA exclusive e-liquid as a liquid containing WTA isolate and some plain nicotine, both added to the liquid.

Here's an example. Somebody might ask me, "I like moderate nicotine, but 20 mg/mL WTA-exclusive e-liquid is too much for me. Can you make something that contains less of the minor alkaloids, and more nicotine?" The answer is, "Yes, I can do that." Here's what I might do:

I would mix 500 mg of WTA isolate with 500 mg of nicotine. I would then add this mixture to PG and bring it to a total volume of 50 mL.

So here's what we have: 500 mg of WTA isolate and 500 mg of nicotine, this is a total of 1000 mg of alkaloids. So:

1000 mg alkaloids (WTA isolate plus nicotine) / 50 mL = 20 mg/mL.

I would consider 20 mg/mL as the alkaloid concentration here. I would not consider this to be the WTA concentration, because the WTA isolate only contributes 10 mg/mL to the total alkaloid concentration.

Now here's what we have:

nicotine from the WTA isolate: 500 mg * 0.95 = 475 mg
minor alkaloids from the WTA isolate: 500 mg * 0.05 = 25 mg
nicotine from the pure nicotine: 500 mg

So we have 975 mg of nicotine and 25 mg of minor alkaloids. If we divide by the final volume of 50 mL, we get:

Nicotine: 975 mg/50 mL
minor alkaloids: 25 mg/50 mL

So, we have an e-liquid that is 19.5 mg/mL in nicotine and 0.5 mg/mL in minor alkaloids, for a total of 20 mg/mL total alkaloids.

Note that this e-liquid made from equal parts of nicotine and minor alkaloids differs from the 20 mg/mL WTA exclusive eliquid. The WTA exclusive 20 mg/mL e-liquid is 19 mg/mL in nicotine and 1.0 mg/mL in minor alkaloids.

So, to summarize:

We can have WTA exclusive e-liquid. All alkaloids present originate from a WTA isolate. It's concentration in mg/mL is the total mg of alkaloids in 1 mL of the e-liquid.

We can have non-WTA exclusive e-liquid. Some alkaloids present originate from a WTA isolate and there is also some pure nicotine added. It's concentration in mg/mL is again the total mg of alkaloids in 1 mL of e-liquid. BUT... the WTA concentration will be less than 20 mg/mL. Using the example from earlier (10 mg/mL from nicotine, 10 mg/mL from WTA isolate), we have a 20 mg/mL e-liquid that is 10 mg/mL in WTA.

So, if I were bottling the stuff, I would label the 20 mg/mL WTA exclusive e-liquid as: 20 mg/mL (100% WTA). I would label the other liquid as: 20 mg/mL (50% WTA).

Confusing, maybe! I've not thought it all the way out.

Crap... 2 AM.

 

[DVap]

Seeing as how Aroma has such a well equipped lab, is it possible that this sophisticated technique has been achieved?

I would say no. Besides, the stuff would cost it's weight in gold.

edit:

Here's a quick example to show how 12 mg/mL and 24 mg/mL could contain the same amount of WTA, and it's not via adding pure minor alkaloids.

liquid 1:

9 mg/mL in WTA isolate and 3 mg/mL in nicotine, total alkaloid concentration = 12 mg/mL.
I would call this 12 mg/mL (75% WTA)

liquid 2:

9 mg/mL in WTA isolate and 15 mg/mL in nicotine, total alkaloid concentration = 24 mg/mL.
I would call this 24 mg/mL (37.5% WTA)

Both contain the same concentration of WTA, but different concentrations of nicotine. This also explains why you can buy 12 mg/mL for the same price as 24 mg/mL. You're paying for the WTA, the extra nicotine in the 24 mg version is free. Please note that the examples above do not correspond to how Aroma actually mixes their liquids, I don't know the actual recipe.