Hell, I thought that post was going to be complicated! haha. I have a new wrinkle that just formed in my forehead! Sheesh.
Vapelicious?
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I've had the weirdest day....this thread is a part of it! Lights out soon here...I hope, earning I hoe I haven't vaped too much straight nic tonight....again.
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Thank you for helping me figure this out (even though I am still figuring). I don't know how it looked when I made that post containing those links, but as I stated earlier, it's better to just post it then to talk about it. So does this still correspond to the spread?
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That actually made perfect sense. So a 20 mg WTA exclusive e-liquid would be 100% WTA extraction, 19 mg/ml nicotine.I said I was going to bed, but then I started into an expense report and pretty soon here I am again to answer your question in more detail than you could possibly want.
I don't agree with the statement:
"WTA is more than just a single chemical, so we can’t just assign a mg strength to it like with nicotine."
We can do that and with precision. Again, it's all in how you define WTA concentration. Here is how I define WTA concentration, and expect to see it defined by others.
If simple math makes your head go all swimmy, you might consider NOW as a good time to run far and run fast.
WTA concentration in mg/mL = total mg of alkaloid isolate per mL of e-liquid.
If I extract WTA from tobacco and purify it on a small scale, I might end up with 1 gram of pure WTA. This 1 gram of pure WTA will contain about 950 mg of nicotine and 50 mg of all other tobacco alkaloids combined.
If I take this 1 gram of pure WTA and dilute it to a final volume of 50 mL, the WTA concentration is:
1000 mg / 50 mL = 20 mg/mL.
Here's the important thing to remember: This applies to an e-liquid where the sole source of alkaloid content is from a purified WTA isolate.
So now we have 20 mg/mL WTA eliquid. I would call this a "WTA exclusive" e-liquid.
If you break down this 20 mg/mL WTA exclusive e-liquid into it's alkaloid "sub-concentrations (assuming the 95%/5% spread), then you get:
Nicotine concentration = 20 mg/mL * 0.95 = 19 mg/mL nicotine
Minor alkaloids (total) = 20 mg/mL * 0.05 = 1 mg/mL minor alkaloids combined
Again, this is a 20 mg/mL WTA exclusive e-liquid. It contains 20 mg of alkaloids per mL.
I would never call it a 1 mg/mL WTA e-liquid. I don't look at fractional components, I look at the whole.
We could look at a non-WTA exclusive e-liquid. I would define a non-WTA exclusive e-liquid as a liquid containing WTA isolate and some plain nicotine, both added to the liquid.
Here's an example. Somebody might ask me, "I like moderate nicotine, but 20 mg/mL WTA-exclusive e-liquid is too much for me. Can you make something that contains less of the minor alkaloids, and more nicotine?" The answer is, "Yes, I can do that." Here's what I might do:
I would mix 500 mg of WTA isolate with 500 mg of nicotine. I would then add this mixture to PG and bring it to a total volume of 50 mL.
So here's what we have: 500 mg of WTA isolate and 500 mg of nicotine, this is a total of 1000 mg of alkaloids. So:
1000 mg alkaloids (WTA isolate plus nicotine) / 50 mL = 20 mg/mL.
I would consider 20 mg/mL as the alkaloid concentration here. I would not consider this to be the WTA concentration, because the WTA isolate only contributes 10 mg/mL to the total alkaloid concentration.
Now here's what we have:
nicotine from the WTA isolate: 500 mg * 0.95 = 475 mg
minor alkaloids from the WTA isolate: 500 mg * 0.05 = 25 mg
nicotine from the pure nicotine: 500 mg
So we have 975 mg of nicotine and 25 mg of minor alkaloids. If we divide by the final volume of 50 mL, we get:
Nicotine: 975 mg/50 mL
minor alkaloids: 25 mg/50 mL
So, we have an e-liquid that is 19.5 mg/mL in nicotine and 0.5 mg/mL in minor alkaloids, for a total of 20 mg/mL total alkaloids.
Note that this e-liquid made from equal parts of nicotine and minor alkaloids differs from the 20 mg/mL WTA exclusive eliquid. The WTA exclusive 20 mg/mL e-liquid is 19 mg/mL in nicotine and 1.0 mg/mL in minor alkaloids.
So, to summarize:
We can have WTA exclusive e-liquid. All alkaloids present originate from a WTA isolate. It's concentration in mg/mL is the total mg of alkaloids in 1 mL of the e-liquid.
We can have non-WTA exclusive e-liquid. Some alkaloids present originate from a WTA isolate and there is also some pure nicotine added. It's concentration in mg/mL is again the total mg of alkaloids in 1 mL of e-liquid. BUT... the WTA concentration will be less than 20 mg/mL. Using the example from earlier (10 mg/mL from nicotine, 10 mg/mL from WTA isolate), we have a 20 mg/mL e-liquid that is 10 mg/mL in WTA.
So, if I were bottling the stuff, I would label the 20 mg/mL WTA exclusive e-liquid as: 20 mg/mL (100% WTA). I would label the other liquid as: 20 mg/mL (50% WTA).
Confusing, maybe! I've not thought it all the way out.
Crap... 2 AM.
Is it possible... feasible, rather, to make a WTA liquid that contains more than that 5% ratio of "other" extracts compared to nicotine? Or is the 19 mg/ml nicotine the upper limit, with any additional nicotine coming from another source?
It would seem that calling something "a low nicotine e-juice, with extra high WTA content" would seem to be mutually exclusive.
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Once you make a non-WTA exclusive e-liquid, it is altered from the natural spread. I would have to assume that most all WTA e-liquid you can get is non-WTA exclusive.
One might be inclined to say, "but dammit!! I want mine to be WTA exclusive!!". The price would have to increase correspondingly while the supply of WTA and cost of production would remain much the same. It's important to remember (if you recall my WTA exclusive concentration comparison), these concentrations are by no means "all day vape" concentrations for the average person. I prefer my WTA exclusive e-liquid at 18 mg/mL (100% WTA), but could I vape it all day? Not a chance. I'd have to drop to 6 or 9 mg/mL (100% WTA) to not overdo it. Now at 6 or 9 mg (100% WTA), the outstanding experience is fairly muted. So I would tend to get the throat hit back by going to 24 mg (25 - 37.5% WTA).
I'm purely speculating that Ethan's supply problems might come from the possibility that he's making liquids with stupid high levels of WTA. Does that mean his stuff is any better than Jerry's? Not at all. We might be looking at a situation of Jerry catering to the average person whom can be helped by WTA while Ethan might be catering to the mutants who would otherwise be taking nicotine on an IV drip.
Okay, now that was just funny!
When I read Radio say, "solating each alkaloid is not for the faint at heart. It probably puts an extra day to production on our process but I think the end user will appreciate the final outcome," that lead me to think it was not just a recipe but part of more complex way of extracting. Maybe that doesn't make sense, but I am trying.
D, you are a lot easier to talk to than Lyle McDonald! LOL
I wonder--this may make no sense--if my loss of appreciation for Aroma's WTA has something to do with the fact that I originally vaped their 12 mg, but then moved up to 24 mg. I wonder if the extra nic changed the balance for me considering all that went up was the nic?
Possible yes, feasible, I rather doubt it. One could presumably find the "right" tobacco that might be more 90/10 than 95/5, but that's going to be pretty tough to source without a lot of expensive analyses on test batches.
Then again, I'm not sure what the folks Ethan works with are capable of. Generally, the more extraordinary the claim, the more extraordinary the proof I would expect.
Thanks again for doing this. It has been a real honor and while it may not make sense to you (maybe one of the few things, LOL), it has been a real highlight for my time on ECF by being able to learn from and see some new posts from you.
Physiologist/nutritionist/trainer (commonly known as the "keto-guy"). He is generally best consulted though his writings, but not directly.
My point was just that most experts that I have been on forums with are far from approachable.
No problem. I'm just trying to do a bit to maybe throw a bit of light on some pretty murky questions.
Why doesn't somebody tell my wife it's an honor? She'd have a good laugh at that.
Oh, I dunno about that. I think I used the same member name on that forum, so he's okay. LOL
Yeah, I think my wife is about fed up with me being on the forum all day! I barely spent any real quality time with my 2 week old baby today. I feel terrible about feeling so good.
Today is not yesterday and tomorrow will not be today!That's a lot of speculating Dvap. I don't pretend to understand the chemistry. I can only say this mutant stopped smoking with Ethan's, and since that's what I was aiming for I'm good.
May I ask, are you the tester?
Tell your wife you were hanging out with a forum celebrity. It will even be true. You can tell your child all about it when their 18th b-day rolls around.
I think this is the fastest I've ever learned anything since High School. You do have a way with words. I am going to call it a night though.
Hilarious!
I think this is the fastest I've ever learned anything since High School. You do have a way with words.
I am going to call it a night though.Gotta watch that forum time. I've been there.
When you have no clue, she's already good and ....... Once you start to suspect that she's ......, she's way past ....... Once you know she's ......, it's too late.
When you have no clue, she's already good and ....... Once you start to suspect that she's ......, she's way past ....... Once you know she's ......, it's too late.
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