Vaping for nicotine advantages?

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mosspa

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The percentage for e-cig use by kids who never smoked should be much lower.

I'm not sure why you would think this. Cigarettes, at least in young persons, don't appear to produce any dependence, either. I am an example, but in all my classes where there is a section on drugs, I ask the students (1) How many of you ever smoked for more than a couple weeks? (2) How many of you quit? and (3) How many of you had difficulty quitting? Over the past 5 years that I have been doing this I have yet to find one student that had trouble quitting or that was trying to quit but was having trouble. So, my guess would be that kids will get off on the nicotine and continue to use it as long as it appears attractive to them. Also, since there doesn't appear to be any reason they shouldn't continue, my guess is that they will. I also believe that the flavorings in vape juice will be attractive to them and participate in their continuing to vape.

Or why not ask some kids who are using but never smoked to stop using for some days an ask them to report withdrawal symptoms if any? I don't see any ethical issues when possession is legal and there are already users and the experiment requests abstinance, not the reverse.

That would not be an experiment. In an experiment you have to look at at least two levels of something you manipulate and look for changes in what you are measuring. What it would be is a survey (similar to what I do in my classes). While you could use the results from such a survey to support you arguments you can never draw any conclusions about causality. Also, I'm not sure why it would matter why prior smoking would be a disqualifier. Smoking does not appear to produce dependence, especially in young persons.

Then start out by experimenting on yourself, get some flavored e liquid (my preferences are coffee and chocolate).

No, thank you. I prefer to keep what I'm inhaling as uncontaminated as possible. From a respiration toxicology perspective, if the PG and VG are at least pharmaceutical grade and the nicotine is very pure (as is the stuff I'm getting from myfreedomsmokes) then the largest contaminant in vape juice is the flavoring. I take mine unflavored, just for that reason.

The most important thing flavors do is make cigarette smoke taste awful which is a crucial part of using vaping to quit smoking, protect against relapsing, and almost certainly discourages kids who start with vaping and then try smoking.

Yes, I can see how that would be true. However, I still think that the flavoring will be an attractant (not that I consider that to be a bad thing). Ultimately if it is demonstrated to be it could be used to fuel the attempts of freedom hating do gooders who don't understand vaping and by big tobacco to regulate the hell out of the market. Neither would be a good thing, in my opinion.
[/QUOTE]
 
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sofarsogood

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I'm not sure why you would think this.
One of my favorite sayings from Zen, just because you have always beleived something is true doesn't make it so.' I'm happy to be corrected on anything where I might be wrong. This is all good stuff. It seems to me that neuro sciene is under represented in the debate. I wish you would do some writing from your professional perspective on some of the contentious issues.

P.S. Unrelated topic. I started riding a motorcycle at age 58, 7 years ago. Today, even though the temp is below zero I got on the bike and did a 30 minute practice in the parking lot across the street. The bike is my addiction. I say it's very good for you if it doesn't kill you. To keep it safer I ride a small bike and spend about 30% of my moving time on slow balance practice. The bike challenges and trains generic balance skills very effectively. Early on I called it addictive therapy. Is nicotine an addictive therapy?
 
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mosspa

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I'm happy to be corrected on anything where I might be wrong

Don't get me wrong, I wasn't trying to correct you. You just stated it as though it were a supported hypothesis and I was interested in your reasoning. Remember, I'm almost 60 and I don't really know what young people might do in any given situation. Mine is purely speculation, also.

This is all good stuff. It seems to me that neuroscience is under represented in the debate. I wish you would do some writing from your professional perspective on some of the contentious issues.

I'm quite new to both vaping and to this forum. I have no idea what the contentious issues are. I can guess that one of them might be whether or not nicotine/cigarette smoking is 'addicting', but beyond that I couldn't hazard a guess at what might be a contentious issue here. I was a government neurotoxicologist for the last 16 years of my first career (before getting into full-time academics), and I was the Scientific Director of a laboratory that had one of the most sophisticated inhalation toxicology programs in the country. That is why it took me so long to decide to vape. I was never worried about dependence or cancer, it was the breathing of very tiny atomized particles (yes, even inert substances like PG and VG) deep into the lungs that had me concerned. Since there hasn't been any epidemiology suggesting that vapers (who were not long-time smokers) are more prone to COPD-like effects than the general population, and one would anticipate some acute COPD-like effects if that was the case, I decided to give it a try for nicotine's potential therapeutic benefits.

I started riding a motorcycle at age 58, 7 years ago

I rode motocross when I was in my teens, before it was even called that :) I haven't ridden a bike in almost 35 years. Living in FL makes it seem like something I might get back into, but the way people drive down here would be taking a big risk, I think.

The bike challenges and trains generic balance skills very effectively.

I can see how it would do that. I read somewhere that today's motocross riders are among the best trained athletes in any sport. One thing that I did notice about the past few years is that my balance is nowhere near what it was, even comparing me to when I was 45.

Is nicotine an addictive therapy?

Well, you have read my position on that (read the Discover Magazine article if you haven't already). I think that nicotine could be an effective therapy for a lot of things (including cardiovascular tone, based on the short lived nature of the cardio-accelerration and nicotine's pressor BP effect while vaping), but, no, I don't think vaping is an addiction in the classical definition of the term 'addiction'. However in colloquial use, like as in 'sex addiction', 'internet addiction', 'gambling addiction', 'food addiction'. etc. I suppose it could be. However, since the colloquial use of the term generally connotes some deleterious behavior, if you aren't vaping continually while you are awake, I doubt that vaping even 5-10 mg a day would meet the requirements of the colloquial definition. You are much more likely to damage yourself on a motorcycle than by vaping :(

Cheers,

John
 
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sofarsogood

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I'm quite new to both vaping and to this forum. I have no idea what the contentious issues are. I can guess that whether or not nicotine/cigarette smoking is 'addicting', but beyond that I couldn't hazzard a guess at what might be a contentious issue here.
On the forum we quibble about who makes the best e liquid or whether some manufacturers wicking material is okay or not. What I meant by contentious issues is the regulatory and political maneuvering swirling around e-cigs just about every where.

Right now there is a push to sway public opinion about e-cigs. Government officals seem to favor harsh restrictions to satisfy a precautionary principle (and justify e-cig excise taxes) the vaping community and a few other voices call for a more permissive approach that weighs risks and opportunities. Everybody wants to say their position is well supported by science.

Your neuro science perspective is one I haven't seen before now and it's interesting and I wish it was part of the science people were looking at.
 

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There's silly stuff about this forum as in all things, but while I'm thinking about it forums like this have really opened my eyes as to the broad swath of people that have gotten into vaping for their own reasons. On the news its always some hipster or cloud chaser or tax dodger or the fear that it'll "normalize smoking's image", and the people at the margins who vaping has helped immeasurable with their health are ignored and not necessarily in people's awareness.

I really, really appreciate people sharing like the last few posts, both because it widens my awareness & people that much older than me usually have butterscotch candies they're willing to share.

DON'T give him butterscotch candies! You'll never get him to go to bed because of the sugar!

[g,d,rlh]
 
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rolygate

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For prophylactic effect (attempted prevention and mitigation of degenerative diseases and auto-immune / inflammatory diseases), nicotine is recognised as effective due to the epidemiology and various additional clinical data such as therapeutic effects. However it is too soon to say if nicotine is the sole active compound in tobacco that provides these benefits, since although we do know that nicotine has an anti-inflammatory action, at least one of the other active tobacco alkaloids, anatabine, is a more powerful anti-inflammatory, and is used in rheumatism meds for this reason.

For a non-smoker using nicotine for cognitive function benefits, we know that, clinically, there is a group of subjects who obtain significant benefit while most show no measurable improvement. However, most people report some benefit for mild cognitive impairment when affected by temporary environmental factors (e.g. lack of sleep, end of a very long working day, inconvenient shifts, working under pressure, etc.). This is why I have suggested that people in professions such as air traffic control and surgery, and who therefore hold many lives in their hands, consider nicotine supplementation as against other materials if they find their performance is slightly below par on certain shifts. Nicotine is probably the best cognitive function normaliser when measured on the safety vs efficacy scale.

We know of several dozen studies that show clinical benefits of various kinds, and many can be found by a search on PubMed. Anyone trying this needs to learn how to phrase complex search queries effectively.

We know of around 8 published studies where large doses of nicotine were administered daily to never-smokers for several months, without the slightest evidence of any reinforcement. If Dr Newhouse's work is added to this, although there is much unpublished work, the body of evidence for pure nicotine having zero potential for dependence in never-smokers is about doubled. Due to its volume and recent date, Newhouse's work appears to make him the leading authority on the administration of nicotine to never-smokers [1].

Some references for these statements can be found below in the Notes, at [2].


Some advice
To anyone new to the nicotine supplementation game [3] we might give this advice:

1. If you are a never-smoker then pure nicotine should not create dependency unless you are of a specific, rare, vulnerable type (with a predilection for dependence that you will probably already know of). However, any form of tobacco can create dependence, as it is the co-administration of MAOIs and possibly WTAs (and other materials) that creates the dependence on nicotine. Smoking is the most potent of all due (probably) to the much greater aldehyde load including the pyrolytic aldehydes, but smokeless tobacco has been implicated. Therefore, pure nicotine is advised rather than a tobacco vehicle delivery of any kind.

2. Pure nicotine is available in ecig vapour, pills, and NRTs - in descending order of effectiveness according to our experience and that of helpful guinea-pig psychologists who have tried the various approaches for research. However, increased efficiency does raise the possibility of an increase in the theoretical potential for dependency (without prior tobacco consumption).

Although no one has ever clinically demonstrated any potential for nicotine to create dependence (with pure nicotine in never-smokers, of course), none of the delivery systems are anywhere near as efficient as EVs (electric/electronic vapourisers: my preferred term for ecigs). It is demonstrated that EVs can be set up to deliver the same fast effect as cigarettes (although most are far, far less efficient), and therefore there is a theoretical possibility that there may be a non-zero dependence potential for (some types of) EVs in (some) never-smokers. This may, in theory, be amplified by elevated atomiser temperatures, if such elevated temperatures produce significant quantities of aldehydes and if non-tobacco aldehydes are subsequently confirmed as having a role in the potentiation of nicotine leading to dependence.

3. If a never-smoker or non-smoker is considering supplementing their nicotine intake then they would be advised to:
a. Consume pure nicotine and not tobacco in any form.
b. Also supplement nicotinic acid (vitamin B3, 'niacin'), since most of the effects are the same; and since these active dietary compounds are co-located in the same vegetables, it follows that both should be considered in a similar manner. Members of ECF have reported that B3 is efficacious for certain conditions related to minor cognitive impairment, but that the amount of B3 required is significantly more than the RDA advised.
c. Reduce the amount of nicotine consumed to that required for mitigation of symptoms, in case of the uncommon but nevertheless non-zero risk for persons with a genetic predisposition to CVD [5].

4. Despite the propaganda, nicotine has no association with cancer at all, and very limited evidence indeed for any effect on CVD. Any effect is almost certainly limited to those with a genetic predisposition to, or active, vascular disease. Part of the rationale for this is the huge Snus data resource, plus the very small (in comparison) NRT data resource. For example it is well-demonstrated that long-term Snus consumption in Sweden has an average life expectancy reduction of 6 weeks (the range is 2 to 10 weeks in the literature), which is almost certainly less than for long-term coffee consumption of an equivalent volume.

Newhouse has documented that the only identifiable widely-observable effect of long-term nicotine consumption is a reduction in blood pressure. (The other beneficial effects are of a smaller scale and tend to apply to small sub-groups who apparently benefit from nicotine supplementation).

5. ECF is, in effect, the largest smoking cessation community in the world, with many millions of visitors every month. As a result we have accumulated considerable anecdotal evidence, even on issues that appear unknown to the medical profession. Some are outlined in the Health section stickies and the Library - see [4].



___________________________________________

WARNING TO MEMBERS

Please do not post 'facts' about nicotine unless you have personally read ALL the research (not just the media version) and you have a very good appreciation of the issues.

This is because there is more propaganda published about nicotine than any other health-related topic. Everything the man in the street 'knows' about nicotine is almost certainly wrong - see the references below. Please DO NOT repeat propaganda as you are only helping the world's largest and most profitable black propaganda machine, and contributing to unwarranted restrictions on vaping.

For example, 44% of doctors in one survey [7] revealed they were completely ignorant of the facts and the advice from their national clinical guidance authority on these issues, and believed instead in the propaganda. Don't make the same mistake. Nicotine is not associated with cancer, and is rarely associated with CVD and then only in exceptional circumstances. Read the quotes from the professors of medicine and doctors who advise us, such as Hajek, West, Polosa, Philips and Farsalinos.

Nicotine doesn't cause cancer or heart disease. Even ongoing consumption of tobacco for multiple decades will only take 6 weeks off your life on average, providing it is not smoked and providing the product is properly manufactured. Please do not repeat propaganda.

Thank you.

____________________________________________



Notes

[1] Dr Paul Newhouse of Vanderbilt Uni.

[2] Quotes: Vaping Quotes
References: References

[3] Nicotine is a normal dietary ingredient; an active dietary ingredient with recognised benefits; everyone consumes it; everyone tests positive for it; and supplementation is as normal as for any other nutrient. It can be more closely compared with vitamin B3 in this regard. Persons with a demonstrated or suspected need for supplementation should probably consider supplementing both, rather than just one of these two closely-related compounds.

[4] Ecigs and health: http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...hen-quitting-tobacco-changing-ecigarette.html

The ECF Library

All You Need To Know About Nicotine

[5] It is probably safe to say that if more than one of your parents and grandparents died comparatively early from stroke or heart attack that you could have a family (genetic) predisposition to vascular disease, and this may rarely be increased by high-volume nicotine consumption. It is clearly not a major consideration when millions of Snus consumers [6] demonstrate an average 6-week reduction in lifespan - but it is a risk, though not of sufficient size to be statistically measurable (never mind clinically significant).

[6] Snus is the special Swedish oral tobacco that is specially-treated to remove most of the carcinogens. It has no association with cancer, which is why Sweden has the lowest male lung cancer and oral cancer rates in the EU even though they have double the number of Snusers than smokers.

[7] In a recent survey of British and Swedish doctors, 44% of British doctors answered that they thought nicotine is associated with cancer (meaning that it causes it or assists it in some way). This is directly opposite to the official guidance from NICE, their national clinical guidance authority, which states clearly and unambiguously that nicotine has no association with cancer (in humans; it may have, in some animal models). Note carefully that animal nicotine models do not transfer to humans: we have two very good reasons we can state this with confidence -
i) We know beyond doubt that nicotine has no association with cancer in humans - the facts and data confirming this are inarguable (and remember it must be absolutely certain, for a national clinical guidance authority to state this, when that position is directly contradicted by all the propaganda and commercial pressures). Animal models may appear to show different (although their methodology / agenda has been called into question in some cases).
ii) We know that it appears impossible to clinically create dependence on nicotine. Animal models may appear to show different (although, again, their methodology / agenda has been called into question in some cases).
 

jseah

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I'm not sure why you would think this. Cigarettes, at least in young persons, don't appear to produce any dependence, either. I am an example, but in all my classes where there is a section on drugs, I ask the students (1) How many of you ever smoked for more than a couple weeks? (2) How many of you quit? and (3) How many of you had difficulty quitting? Over the past 5 years that I have been doing this I have yet to find one student that had trouble quitting or that was trying to quit but was having trouble. So, my guess would be that kids will get off on the nicotine and continue to use it as long as it appears attractive to them. Also, since there doesn't appear to be any reason they shouldn't continue, my guess is that they will. I also believe that the flavorings in vape juice will be attractive to them and participate in their continuing to vape.

I smoked my first cigarette when I was a sophmore in high school. Smoked for several months and just stopped cold turkey. Didn't have any urge to pick up a cigarette, etc and went years without smoking or even thinking about smoking. When I was in college, the friends I was hanging out with at the time were smokers, so I started smoking again. From picking it up again until now, I had smoked for over 30 years. Tried quitting on many occasions by going cold turkey, cutting back, using prescription meds, and nicotine replacement (mints and gum) but could never kick the habit for longer than a day and a half before the urge to light up again was too great and I buckled. For me, I came to realize that the addiction wasn't so much the dependence on nicotine but it was more the dependence on the habit of the act of smoking. Since I started vaping a month and a half ago, I haven't picked up a cigarette. For once I have the confidence that I will finally be able to quit.
 

mosspa

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Thank you, Rolygate for this contribution to this thread. I assume that this is a boiler-point presentation and I had not seen it before in any of the threads I have visited here. Upon completion of this post, I am, again, going to try to post the PubMed derived citations and abstracts of neurodegenerative disease and nicotine. An additional word of warning to inexperienced users of PubMed. Not everything referenced there is from non-biased, well respected peer-reviewed journals. Also, while what Rolygate posted about the proportion of successes to failures in treatment of neurodegenerative disease with nicotine is true. The ratio is probably not really as great as he implies. I have university library access to most of the journals, and after reading many of the studies claiming to find negative results I have found that many of these studies are methodologically flawed (i.e., dose problems, saturation problems stemming from failure to take the short half life of nicotine into account, failures to provide positive controls for dermal administration, duration of the trials, etc.). So, caveat emptor.
 
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mosspa

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For me, I came to realize that the addiction wasn't so much the dependence on nicotine but it was more the dependence on the habit of the act of smoking. Since I started vaping a month and a half ago, I haven't picked up a cigarette. For once I have the confidence that I will finally be able to quit.

From my experience with my students who smoked for a reasonable period of time and who quit, as well as from my own personal experiences, I believe that habit strength of the 'smoking habit' is what increases with continual smoking over time (I know that that terminology might seem rather outdated to some, but whomever coined it either understood how habits are learned, or just came up with the perfect name). Anyway, there may be downside to vaping as a means of 'quitting' depending on what you are trying to quit. If the goal is to eliminate all of the gunky stuff in cigarette smoke, clear your lungs, and to improve your prognosis for a more full and active life, then vaping may be an ideal 'therapy'. Even if you want to eliminate nicotine from your life, which may or may not be a really good idea depending on your health, vaping and systematic reduction in nicotine consumed over time might also be a reasonable strategy. However, if you are trying to reduce the 'smoking habit' entirely, vaping may not be the way to go, since, in most of its topographical forms, the behavioral act of vaping is very similar to the act of smoking and what is going to happen is habit substitution. Again, that is not a negative thing, but if your actual goal is to not be sucking something into your lungs, vaping might not be the best choice.
 

VNeil

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Mosspa, great contributions to this forum! if I understand you correctly, you are vaping about 5-10mg a day (based on eLiquid consumed). You should know that the "typical vaper" here is running through more like 50-100mg/day of eLiquid. Many people here go through 10ml of juice a day, based on comments I read, and that sounds about right for my use. Some maybe more. Rebuildable drippers and tanks, with large coils and wicks, consumes far more juice than typical eGo style tanks, for example.

Personally, I am using 10-12mg juice (that I mix myself). So that is where I come up with 100mg as a reasonable number. I suspect I am well up in the spectrum of consumption. A lot of drippers have cut way back, to the 3-6mg range, for example. I'm sure you appreciate there is a wide spread, but I was trying to come up with some "reasonable typical high level of consumption" as best I can, knowing the danger of trying to use terms like "average".

I only mention this because what you are doing, basically using nic for "medicinal" type purposes, is very different than people here typically trying to wean off smokes. And my numbers are purely amount of eJuice consumed, I have no idea what percentage is typically ingested into our bloodstreams. You might have some idea of that??
 

rolygate

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It looks to us as if nicotine therapies have limited application, but that would be true of any therapy.

On the other hand, nicotine as an alternative to or addition to coffee at 6am on a rough shift seems to have wider application.

Thanks for the refs, they will be useful in this collated form.
 
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rolygate

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................. the "typical vaper" here is running through more like 50-100mg/day of eLiquid.
.........................
And my numbers are purely amount of eJuice consumed, I have no idea what percentage is typically ingested into our bloodstreams. You might have some idea of that??

The transfer efficiency of the device is critical here: Goniewicz demonstrated (repeatedly) that it averages 50%. So, you can divide the refill quantity by half to get a handle on the rough amount delivered in the vapour.

However there are a whole bunch of caveats associated with this, and any kind of discussion that leads to some sort of attempt to equate the amounts consumed is doomed to failure. The equipment's transfer efficiency varies wildly, individual tolerance to nicotine varies by a factor of 10, and there is good reason to believe that the effect of pure nicotine varies considerably from that of smoked nicotine.

Even plasma measurements don't tell the whole story due to the last point above: a dual-user vaper will show the same effect (satisfaction, removal of cravings, or however you want to measure it / describe it) from a plasma nic level derived from vaping that is about 40% lower than the level from smoking. So - once the nic is actually in the bloodstream - vaped nic is considerably 'stronger' than smoked nic. This is probably counter-intuitive, at least for most people, who would otherwise have assumed that smoked nicotine has a more powerful effect.
 

mosspa

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Mosspa, great contributions to this forum! if I understand you correctly, you are vaping about 5-10mg a day (based on eLiquid consumed)

Actually, it's in the 3 to 6mg range/day. And, I think I consume it in higher concentrations than many casual vapers do given the max nicotine concentration available from many vendors (my juice is 5% if the good folks at MFS aren't lying on their packaging). And, I vape 5-8 drags every couple of waking hours to offset the nicotine half life. As you mention later on, I am doing this for potential therapeutic value, although I'm finding the alcohol buzz interaction quite pleasurable (and it has persisted over the time I have been vaping)

You should know that the "typical vaper" here is running through more like 50-100mg/day of eLiquid. Many people here go through 10ml of juice a day, based on comments I read, and that sounds about right for my use. Some maybe more. Rebuildable drippers and tanks, with large coils and wicks, consumes far more juice than typical eGo style tanks, for example.

No I really didn't know that. However, it would be nice to see some real blood concentration data from people vaping at that level. From what I have seen from looking at many of the juice vendors, 2.6% nicotine appears to me the sweet spot. Also, watching students vape, I notice that they exhale large blooming clouds of vapor, suggesting that a lot of what they are taking in is being blown off upon exhale. When I vape, I fill my mouth to reasonable fulness with vapor, swish it around for a couple seconds then inhale it, keeping it in my lungs until I have to breath again. I am using 75/25 PG/VG juice, and I see little, if any vapor, when I finally exhale. So, I'm pretty sure I'm consuming most of what I actually inhale on a mg/ml basis.

Personally, I am using 10-12mg juice (that I mix myself). So that is where I come up with 100mg as a reasonable number. I suspect I am well up in the spectrum of consumption. A lot of drippers have cut way back, to the 3-6mg range, for example. I'm sure you appreciate there is a wide spread, but I was trying to come up with some "reasonable typical high level of consumption" as best I can, knowing the danger of trying to use terms like "average".

Well, if I am that far off, I apologize. Clearly, if you big-time drippers aren't dropping dead my measly consumption has got to be 'safe' :ohmy:

I only mention this because what you are doing, basically using nic for "medicinal" type purposes, is very different than people here typically trying to wean off smokes. And my numbers are purely amount of eJuice consumed, I have no idea what percentage is typically ingested into our bloodstreams. You might have some idea of that??

As you mention, and as the title of this thread suggests, I'm into vaping mostly for therapeutic reasons (but can't forget the alcohol buzz intensification). It is entirely possible that I am not vaping enough nicotine. I'm going to try sort through the tobacco-nicotine literature to better assess how much nicotine a two pack/day smoker actually ingests. The original speculation about nicotine's potential therapeutic value was derived from the negative correlations between smoking and neurodegenerative disease. Knowing about how much nicotine the average smoker consumes would be a big help.
 

AndriaD

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I looked into the scientific literature on nicotine and sleep and didn't find any references that might corroborate my statement about nicotine and sleep in my OP. However, yours is another testimonial (even though it may well be a placebo effect) that nicotine doesn't necessarily disrupt sleep, and may even enhance it. Remember, placebos can have powerful 'real' effects. However, the anxiolytic capacities of, presumably, nicotine are pretty well documented, especially in long-time smokers. If it is working for you, GREAT!

To me, this looks like much the same effect that hyperactive children experience when giving them strong stimulants such as Ritalin -- it's a paradoxical effect due to the stimulant's "coordinating" effect on brain chemicals, which results in relaxation, calmness, even sleepiness.

I've suffered ADD most of my life (even when they had no idea that such a thing existed!); when once trying a particular type of "diet pill," I experienced this same effect -- calmness, feeling "in control."

Andria
 

AndriaD

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Actually, it's in the 3 to 6mg range/day. And, I think I consume it in higher concentrations than many casual vapers do given the max nicotine concentration available from many vendors (my juice is 5% if the good folks at MFS aren't lying on their packaging). And, I vape 5-8 drags every couple of waking hours to offset the nicotine half life. As you mention later on, I am doing this for potential therapeutic value, although I'm finding the alcohol buzz interaction quite pleasurable (and it has persisted over the time I have been vaping)

5% would be 50mg -- maybe you mean 5mg?

Andria
 

mosspa

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In case anyone present can help, do we know if the vaccine developed to prevent nicotine dependency (presumably in smokers / ex-smokers) has any other effects, for example does it prevent any/all of nicotine's beneficial effects?

Vaccine (I've got to research this a bit)? I would be interested in seeing the rationale for this. I could see how one might develop a nicotine drug analogous to Ro15-4513 and ethanol, but an actual vaccine? Vaccines inoculate against invading bacteria and other microorganisms, to which the body can generate an immune response. Something that resembled a vaccine to a chemical compound such as nicotine would necessitate some genetic manipulation that somehow affected expression or up-/down-regulation of brain ACh nicotinic receptors. I can't imagine how this could ever be a good thing, especially given the lack of data to suggest the occurrence of nicotine dependency in the first place.
 

mosspa

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5% would be 50mg -- maybe you mean 5mg?

Andria

No, I really meant 50mg. My initial batches were about 46mg, which corresponded to what Winston-Salem claims is in their 4.6% Vuse product that I was switching over from. To make the dilution math simpler I standardized on 50mg. I just dilute the 100mg MFS unflavored juice to 50% (i.e., 50mg). I mix my juice 200ml at a time, 100ml MFS juice, 75ml PG and 25ml VG. What I really think i did incorrectly was in going back to mass from volume. I think, now, that I maybe meant between .03 and .06mg nicotine which is going to be off a little accounting for the specific gravity of propylene glycol and glycerol. Maybe its best to keep things in a liquid measure to avoid confusing myself :) I'm vaping between 0.6 and 1.2 ml per day of a 5% nicotine solution.
 
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