Here's the thing... there are facts and there are opinions. They are two different things. The latter should not be misrepresented as the former.
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Who reported it as fact? There is minor evidence developing that it could indeed be fact though. However I have made no claims. But I still have the injury. The early bird gets the worm lol. Let's wait 5 years...
Are you feeling better now? Have you stopped vaping? What was your typical setup?
The other dude on the thread you posted on about the CT scans had just signed up Monday and I ways seem skeptical when someone comes in and annouces something like this.
Whats your thoughts on your injury? You feel it maybe vape related?
This thread is titled 'Vaping gave me Eosinophilic Pneumonia,' (my previous posts on this thread explain my problem with this in more detail). I've posted on the CT scan thread regarding that discussion (hence suggestion to re-read). I think your comments on that thread (post #22) regarding your situation are perfectly reasonable. My comments here, of course, refer to the discussion on this thread.
It will take a long time to gather all necessary info and agree probably years due to the complexity - but I'm also pretty sure (especially given current situation in US) all & any negative health concerns of vapers will be closely monitored and reported so there will be plenty of data. (In the UK - it has been under Yellow Card reporting since 2016 and links between vaping/ health have been recorded well before that). Then it will still be a discussion about how that data/ research is investigated & interpreted & conclusions reached (and differences in data/ interpretation as currently with e.g. teen vaping in UK/ US).
I see vaping as a less harmful alternative to cigarettes - not a completely new, recreational nicotine delivery tool and approach research etc. accordingly. (so I do expect it to be compared to smoking cigarettes and I do expect it to properly reflect real time vaping). As I've said before I don't think vaping makes me invincible and I don't think there are any health guarantees and it may turn out I'm wrong & I'm sure I'd review if I had any health concerns. We all have to make our own assessments and our own decisions and take any consequences.
I agree to most but we can't dismiss the OP. That aside this is what I am talking about, how do we convince the vaping majority that there will be injury, because the '95%' isn't correctly understood or most likely not accurate in any way. Vaping has exploded, what do you think drove it? It is not seen as harm reduction it is seen by the majority of vapers as virtually harmless. Most vapers don't consider many 'behavioural factors' regarding nicotine addiction or the reward and reinforcement to whatever 'device' that provides this. Vaping should be a gateway to quit but it is not and that is clear. There are safer nicotine alternatives available than vaping if one is truly ready to quit or needs nicotine for other medical/personal reasons etc. The reality of vaping is not the one we all wish to believe.
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I'm really not dismissing the OP. It is slightly different in the UK because officially it is clearly positioned as 'harm reduction'. They don't say 'safer', they say 'less harmful' and all emphasis is very much on using it to give up smoking. At the moment in the UK all evidence (no. of MHRA reports, data related to those moving from cigarettes to vaping, decrease in smoking related diseases, evaluation of current research etc. etc.) does point to it being much, much, safer. This could change at any time - the support, the analysis +/or the evidence. There is still a massive amount of negativity here in the media, lack of knowledge - a lot of people think vaping is worse than smoking.
I actually don't think most people believe the PHE 95% is an exact figure - though it did pretty much agree with the RCP assessment whose review was very comprehensive, I think they said 5% of the harm - it may turn out to be more or less.
Many ex smokers have tried all the other alternatives and they didn't work (myself included). Adult vapers have to take the responsibility for what they do, whatever their reasons. If they aren't prepared to take the risk of unforeseen problems from vaping in the future they shouldn't do it. We really don't need to persuade them injury will happen - media is telling them it has already happened or will inevitably happen through misrepresentation, ignorance, poor reporting etc. - a lot of scientists are doing the same through badly conducted research. There is a huge amount of disinformation and outright lies out there. What we need to do is hold the media, scientists etc. to account - to make sure the information is as truthful & factual as possible (whatever the eventual outcome).
I actually don't think most people believe the PHE 95% is an exact figure - though it did pretty much agree with the RCP assessment whose review was very comprehensive, I think they said 5% of the harm - it may turn out to be more or less.
Many ex smokers have tried all the other alternatives and they didn't work (myself included). Adult vapers have to take the responsibility for what they do, whatever their reasons. If they aren't prepared to take the risk of unforeseen problems from vaping in the future they shouldn't do it. We really don't need to persuade them injury will happen - media is telling them it has already happened or will inevitably happen through misrepresentation, ignorance, poor reporting etc. - a lot of scientists are doing the same through badly conducted research. There is a huge amount of disinformation and outright lies out there. What we need to do is hold the media, scientists etc. to account - to make sure the information is as truthful & factual as possible (whatever the eventual outcome).
You continue repeating the same things every post. Tell me why vaping exploded in the US? Tell me why a crapload of young people are taking up vaping? I am from Australia we haven't seen a 'conspiracy' or negativity in the media. There has been some of this in the US but not all. Australian media covered the thc 'issue' very quickly and many came forward to pronounce that vaping was 95%... There are still cases of harm from nicotine vaping only, in the US. But, let's remember they must all be liars and drug addicts. At what stage did you convince yourself to fight the good fight against any scientists...? Those journals are relied upon everyday to save lives in the health system etc. Do you also review studies outside of your profession?
Vapers have a natural tendency of being paranoid of anything against vaping, you can see that here on ECF. It's a byproduct of addiction among other things ($). You are clinging to the 95% I just don't see how anyone of critical learning would accept that theory and now your telling me it was comprehensive. You have already acknowledged that its built on sand but you continue to use it as your firm basis of fact. You are pro vaping. Are you using e-cigarettes to quit smoking? How long have you been vaping for?
'According to NHS Digital's Statistics on Smoking, more than 3.2 million adults in Great Britain use e-cigarettes – 6.3% of the adult population. Of these users, 52% are ex-smokers, suggesting they are helping people to stop smoking'.
So, what about the 48% who are not ex-smokers? Thats a lot of people...
Check out this thread:
Vaping Illness: A New Name and Expanded Clinical Guidance "EVALI" cases will become increasingly mix
Is that critical analysis? Is that holding people to account?
Before the 'thc crisis'
Hypersensitivity Pneumonitis and Acute Respiratory Distress Syndrome From E-Cigarette Use
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Well, that's good to know
E-cigarettes '95% less harmful than smoking' says report
Thanks all, I'm not trying to be an ....... I have to move on now. Cheers to all I have enjoyed ECF over the years.
I am not referring in any of these posts to the recent US outbreak. Or the 'massive' increase in teen vaping - which can be read in a very different way depending on how you interpret the data. e.g. what happens when you take out all the single use in the past month kids?
The recent outbreak is clearly down to contaminants of some kind - otherwise it would not just be in the US. The fact that a massive percentage vaped THC carts suggests it is involved in this outbreak. The fact that a very small percentage apparently vaped nicotine means that can't be discounted. I say 'apparently' because there clearly are those who did vape THC as well but didn't admit it until later. That doesn't make them either liars or drug addicts - it make them kids who experiment and may not want to admit to it. There's a young man on twitter saying he only vaped nicotine - yet he has instagram photos with him clearly holding a THC cart vape. Some may have jsut vaped nicotine. It is impossible to say exactly what caused it yet - but if nicotine vape is causing any of it - it is likely to also be because of contaminants. It makes no sense otherwise - why not before? why not anywhere else? We all use the same products - UK requires lab results for nicotine liquid (so e.g. no diacytel) - but 0mg/ nic shot flavoured liquid doesn't require them. All of the ingredients vaped in the US are vaped everywhere else too. You are lucky if Australia media is neutral and reports properly. the Uk media is not good - e.g. I've lost count of the number of times our media has just recently reported lipid pneumonia linked to oil based eliquid (which is clearly completely wrong as eliquid doesn't contain oil) or vaping oil in reference to nicotine vaping.
Outside of the recent acute outbreak which obviously needs to be treated separately - show me any evidence of people falling sick in large numbers (or small numbers for that matter) from vaping over say the last 10 years? The 95% is an assessment - I don't think it's built on sand - but any assessment of risk should not be seen as a definite number set in stone. (The PHE have reassessed and are actually now saying at least 95% less harmful). It was the RCP I said was comprehensive.
I started questioning scientists when I saw how many did research mis-using equipment, not doing proper controls, not appearing to know what was in the liquid etc. E.g. a US scientist who is doing vaping research (I think it was a CNN report) recently said PG & VG were oils. They clearly aren't - they're alcohols. You think I should accept any research he does as factual and not question it? I am clearly pro vaping, I do use ecigs and I have done for 7 years.
The other 48% in the UK who vape may be dual users, some may be people who took it up rather than starting to smoke. How do I know - I don't actually care - any adult can vape if they want to - but clearly there won't be any harm reduction and may be some harm if they come from no smoking. They're adults - they are perfectly capable of assessing the risks for themselves. PHE advises non smokers shouldn't vape, but if they want to ignore or not believe that - it's their choice.
The vaping illness has to be treated as a separate thing - you can't conflate it with other reporting of health problems which didn't occur around the time of this outbreak (e.g. OP). My own opinion - the CDC and FDA have been terrible regarding the outbreak. Glad to see they are finally advising urine tests for THC. They should have emphasised the difference between ecigs and ejoints from the start given the large percentage of THC use identified. The reason being, many people who are using ecigarettes don't think they are the same thing as THC carts (maybe because they aren't?) so people stopped using their juuls (or whatever) but probably thought they were OK carrying on with the THC carts. I could go on. I think this outbreak is really, really serious but it isn't anything to do with this thread.
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I really have the hate for America at the moment. I mean, that's par of America's charm for me, and paritally why I naturalized but ALSO paritally why I waited until I could keep my dual Aus citizenship.
SOME countries they just STRIP it from you. Which is another thing I'm not fond of, either.
But here are just too many things to hate at the moment, it's getting overwhelming.
Do they need social workers in AUS? I mean they might need them, but based on the Australians I have met they might not WANT them. They'd wave a Fosters Lager at me and yell, "GErrroff, I want nothing to do with you."
You know when I would go to Australia? When the husband was deed and there was this dude who, well, I was forbidden fruit and the story of how I found them was long and involved and I guess I was hotter sooner than I thought because I got to stay there for a week and the youngest one (read head, bonus) gave me several long lingering "forbidden fruit" looks before I was quite old enough to know what they meant.
But once I figured it out it was awesome/tragic because we left and etc. I could go find that dude it would make for an interesting adventure and frankly I can't see much ELSE great in Aus.
I mean my DAD lives there, but so does his wife. LOL.
Anna
SOME countries they just STRIP it from you. Which is another thing I'm not fond of, either.
But here are just too many things to hate at the moment, it's getting overwhelming.
Do they need social workers in AUS? I mean they might need them, but based on the Australians I have met they might not WANT them. They'd wave a Fosters Lager at me and yell, "GErrroff, I want nothing to do with you."
You know when I would go to Australia? When the husband was deed and there was this dude who, well, I was forbidden fruit and the story of how I found them was long and involved and I guess I was hotter sooner than I thought because I got to stay there for a week and the youngest one (read head, bonus) gave me several long lingering "forbidden fruit" looks before I was quite old enough to know what they meant.
But once I figured it out it was awesome/tragic because we left and etc. I could go find that dude it would make for an interesting adventure and frankly I can't see much ELSE great in Aus.
I mean my DAD lives there, but so does his wife. LOL.
Anna
The same journals that once insisted that butter, eggs, and animal fats in general were bad for us?
I am too. It certainly feels at least 90% less harmful to me. I smoked for 36 years. I've been vaping instead for almost 6 now. Yeah, I understand, my personal anecdote isn't data. But then your personal anecdote isn't either.
Most of them are not ex-smokers yet. Yes, there are a lot of dual users.
Not really replying to mel_vin as much as I feel like making a bigger point. If FDA needs to study every (ridiculously) minute detail of every possible vaping product that dares to go for a PMTA, then I see the same being true with ALL pronouncements by health official types regarding messages that amount to "stop vaping."
IOW, a particular (very specific) set up of vaping COULD be potentially dangerous. But that would not possibly mean another set up is equally dangerous, or even remotely dangerous. If argued (by anyone) that it is, then that's really saying they are, in fact, substantially equivalent. Yet, FDA doesn't allow for that, so why should we? Can't say all of vaping is (potentially) dangerous, unless all of vaping is truly substantially equivalent in all it's forms that it appears in. And that substantially equivalent isn't the layperson take on things, but instead is the technician's take on this. Down to the very minute details. You may vape 9 mg, and I vape 18 mg, which from technical perspective is entirely different products, even if everything else is the same, relatively speaking. And that's just one of around 9000 factors I could have selected.
So, it really shouldn't ever be a message of 'stop vaping' but instead a message to vape the relatively safe stuff that those who (like myself) have been vaping for a decade.
Which really is my message to OP. I've vaped stuff that did make me physically ill. I stopped vaping that stuff. Didn't stop vaping altogether. I stopped vaping the stuff that made me feel ill. Went back to the stuff that not only I enjoy but that is relatively safe.
Heck, I'd contest it right now. You actually didn't cite a cause. According to OP of this thread, and his wonderful doctors, the proper response would be to never go down stairs again.
According to FDA, we'd need to know exact height of each stair, amount of stairs, width of staircase, materials of each stair, and each fastener, whether there's a railing, the material of the railing, how many tests were done before the stairs were deemed ready for use. Plus about 18 million other things I may be overlooking.
Personally, I'd just want to know how many stairs did you actually fall down (and not touch before you hit the ground) and how fast/careless you were in descending the stairs. I'd think you were careless and that was the actual cause. If I learned you were actually careful, then I'd hope the stairs get fixed before anyone else tries to go down them. But I surely wouldn't think all stairs are a problem since you had a problem with your stairs.
Which is yet another jab by me at OP.
Had Big Corruption taken a vacation long enough for anyone to consider putting time and energy (e.g. money) into the discovery of Facts through, say, scientific method, BEFORE forcing even the most invested vaping community to continually choose between no regulation/no testing and a complete ban (again, without Facts), I don't believe we'd be here. Not making assumptions because all we have yet is a mass of case studies a gazillion more of which would still not equal evidence on which to base a decent high school book report, let alone medical doctrine. So this is based on what my family refers to as "inner fact" (something we feel and believe but couldn't prove and therefore must restrain ourselves from proselytizing), but I stopped puttin in the time and money when I was shamed every time I went to a vape store for using such a low temp or wattage because it was "not the way these devices were made to be used" and would likely burn out the coils, at least. They were right btw, on both counts. But any other way hurt my lungs and at the end of the day I stopped feeling this could be the healthier alternative when every vape shop (non thc, just tobacco) was filled with a cloud that met me at the door and allowed a visual distance of about 2.5 feet.
IDK about a lot of things, but I do know this: the vape liquid and materials I make myself do not make me ill.
PG sensitivity is not fun, so I went to DIY.
Also I am a believer in what used to be the "scientific method." I believe about 1/100 studies (if we are lucky are NOT the "scientific method," they are a method that starts with "S" and ends with "T."
I am also a big believer in my OWN anecdotal evidence. I have taken medications that have wound me up in the burn unit and I know they don't do that to EVERYONE but they do that to me. I choose (wisely) not to take said medications as my skin sloughing off and regrowing was unpleasant and ALSO kind of... inescapable. It was not a hallucination, I was not "unlucky" I had the type of body that did not agree with that medication.
I base many of my life decisions on anecdotal evidence because I am a firm believer both in science (there are trends, they can be measured, if done correctly) but they are TRENDS, usually.
There may be the occasional delicate snowflake that cannot vape OR has not done the necessary ANECDOTAL testing to make it work (which is what I had to do with PG) and well, that's unfortunate for THEM.
There is a level of "proof" vaping is expected to go beyond and, in my opinion, that standard has become VASTLY unfair compared to OTHER FDA regulated products.
Do you know how many "medications" list DEATH as a complication? It's a lot, and to be fair, not taking them may also lead to DEATH and as your own personal anecdote, well, choose your path wisely.
That would include NOT BUYING BLACK MARKET cartridges but I'm not getting INTO that. I am saying, like the "Choose your own Adventure" books, each choice leads to ANOTHER choice, and EACH time ANY new substance meets ANY new body, ANYTHING can happen.
We are our own experimental data and I take stock in that, large stock as I have had some very, very unpleasant lessons.
Also, today sucked at work and I hate all docs, I was so busy one in particular. So eh, FDA and whatever, you deserve a roast today.
Science is good-- for broad strokes and society as a whole IF done correctly. YOUR anecdotal data is good, FOR YOU.
Both are required I believe vaping has passed the test for me but a bunch of other corporations and whatnot disagree.
So, great.
Anna
PG sensitivity is not fun, so I went to DIY.
Also I am a believer in what used to be the "scientific method." I believe about 1/100 studies (if we are lucky are NOT the "scientific method," they are a method that starts with "S" and ends with "T."
I am also a big believer in my OWN anecdotal evidence. I have taken medications that have wound me up in the burn unit and I know they don't do that to EVERYONE but they do that to me. I choose (wisely) not to take said medications as my skin sloughing off and regrowing was unpleasant and ALSO kind of... inescapable. It was not a hallucination, I was not "unlucky" I had the type of body that did not agree with that medication.
I base many of my life decisions on anecdotal evidence because I am a firm believer both in science (there are trends, they can be measured, if done correctly) but they are TRENDS, usually.
There may be the occasional delicate snowflake that cannot vape OR has not done the necessary ANECDOTAL testing to make it work (which is what I had to do with PG) and well, that's unfortunate for THEM.
There is a level of "proof" vaping is expected to go beyond and, in my opinion, that standard has become VASTLY unfair compared to OTHER FDA regulated products.
Do you know how many "medications" list DEATH as a complication? It's a lot, and to be fair, not taking them may also lead to DEATH and as your own personal anecdote, well, choose your path wisely.
That would include NOT BUYING BLACK MARKET cartridges but I'm not getting INTO that. I am saying, like the "Choose your own Adventure" books, each choice leads to ANOTHER choice, and EACH time ANY new substance meets ANY new body, ANYTHING can happen.
We are our own experimental data and I take stock in that, large stock as I have had some very, very unpleasant lessons.
Also, today sucked at work and I hate all docs, I was so busy one in particular. So eh, FDA and whatever, you deserve a roast today.
Science is good-- for broad strokes and society as a whole IF done correctly. YOUR anecdotal data is good, FOR YOU.
Both are required I believe vaping has passed the test for me but a bunch of other corporations and whatnot disagree.
So, great.
Anna
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