Do you think think this is the first study critical of vaping published by the BMJ? Maybe any support of the 95% is an assessment of all studies published?
- Status
Its a review. Maybe you should critically assess how it came to be for the 95% statement.
While I am responding to your post, I truly am just replying to the idea. Anyone could be saying this and surely many (if not most) here believe the meme "smoking kills." I would've loved (rather than liked) post #175 by @kates were it not for the last paragraph, where it is said (and I quote): "220 people die from smoking related diseases in the UK every day." This is said within context of making vaping look safer, which currently I think everyone on the planet accepts as scientific fact. And yet, we live in a world where some people, namely smokers/never-vapers, actually doubt this. And have reason for doubting it.
In the post I've quoted above, where it says "in most 10 year smokers you will not see lung cancer, or any real negative health side effects," I would call that highly disputed. I just googled, "harm from smoking one cigarette." Minus the quotes. I'd suggest everyone reading this, google that. You'll see plenty of hits from plenty of medical type websites. Looking to establish it as fact that one smoke is enough to cause very severe harm.
And I bring ALL of this up to contribute the point that it's not realistic that we can have fair open discussion on this topic. There is clearly ANTZ information in the mix that people convey as fact. As indisputable. 480,000 people dying (in the US) annually is taken as indisputable fact. Me, I'm so skeptical of that data that I seek to have that backed up. With actual scientific data, not scientific conjecture/opinion. I have so far, not been able to find it. Therefore, not only do I dispute it, I think it is made up. I don't think it is made up that people can die (or have died) from smoking, but do 100% believe it is exaggerated, beyond reasonable belief, in effort to demonize the product to the point where only an insane, careless person would ever light up again. Therefore, enjoying a smoke is not actually possible, if the 'scientific data' is accepted (as fact).
It will not be long that people will believe vapers are dying from vaping related diseases. I'm pretty sure there are some in this thread that already believe that and are willing to accept it as indisputable fact. In the U.S. currently, there are 'medical types' doing everything humanly possible to frame vaping (nicotine) in this manner.
So, that truly needs to be considered as part of the ongoing debate. That there are people amongst us (mainly not on this forum) who are contributing (made up) data to the general discussion that amounts to "vaping is so harmful, that just one puff is enough to a) get you addicted for life and b) cause irreparable damage, which will eventually lead to c) you will die from vaping if you continue it." I call those people ANTZ. Perhaps great deceivers is a better way of referring to them. But I'll stick to ANTZ.
If anyone wishes to start a post on the negatives of vaping, based on own experiences/observations, have at it. But realize there will be people, like me, who desire to counter your narrative if you espouse things such as "can be harmful" and "STOP VAPING." Because that truly reads like ANTZ nonsense to me. If you profoundly disagree, I'm up for whatever reasonable discussion you are willing to have. I won't be shy. I bet you bow out of the discussion well before I'd want to stop. I also bet you won't be able to back up your data from actual scientific data, but instead will be basing your ideas on scientific conjecture.
And to anyone reading this, I challenge you to back up the data that 480,000 people die annually from smoking. Back it up with scientific data. It still humors me, greatly, that the number remains the exact same every year. Funny that no one questions it on that alone.
The review is just that, a review.
Peer reviewed articles (what the data sets are pulled from) have the same tendencies toward bias as anything else, often moreso..
This review is pulling the data sets from everywhere.. it's not a new study or even new information it's a hodgepodge of data sets under an umbrella term e-cigarette use.
I don't think data relative to illegal contaminated carts full of things that should never be inhaled should be thrown into the mix when discussing normal ecigarette use and it's affects, for instance.
So this review as a whole is a bit confusing when you have to sit and wade through which data is actually relevant to us and which data is not, which data is biased and which is not..
It would take a serious amount of time to figure out appropriately, in my honest opinion, but I don't see it as saying anything new or noteworthy.
Last edited:
So I gazed and glazed over some of this, but I think @Opinionated is right in saying that this is nothing new here. It makes mention of some of the other factors like flavorings, and attomizers etc, which is why we truly are guinea pigs with this stuff and its difficult as we cant necessarily get a proper control/baseline here with all these factors at play.
The common thing here is and whats been echoed in this thread and site wide is that we cant say vaping is 100% safe, but than what does that even mean, safe?
Vaping does not come without possible side effects. What these are, well its going to be depending on many factors to many to properly list.
Vaping (like smoking,) will be a risk you as the individual takes. We have this community and Im thankful for this. We have some champs here going on 10 years + on vaping. without major health issue or worsening of health, which that is fantastic and promosing to hear. Me personally im at 6 years (and on a 3 day break right now. Its had up and downs.
We need to share our expirences without any declarations. We can share opinions and we are encouraged to debate these respectfully, but ultimately its up to us to make our own determinations and do what we feel is best for our own interest by making an informed decision. Like it or not, we are guinea pigs even after 10 years.
Me I always like to err on the side of caution. Im not quick to jump on something new. Certain things bug me about vaping so I avoid these and try to keep things simple. And I try to stay informed.
The common thing here is and whats been echoed in this thread and site wide is that we cant say vaping is 100% safe, but than what does that even mean, safe?
Vaping does not come without possible side effects. What these are, well its going to be depending on many factors to many to properly list.
Vaping (like smoking,) will be a risk you as the individual takes. We have this community and Im thankful for this. We have some champs here going on 10 years + on vaping. without major health issue or worsening of health, which that is fantastic and promosing to hear. Me personally im at 6 years (and on a 3 day break right now. Its had up and downs.
We need to share our expirences without any declarations. We can share opinions and we are encouraged to debate these respectfully, but ultimately its up to us to make our own determinations and do what we feel is best for our own interest by making an informed decision. Like it or not, we are guinea pigs even after 10 years.
Me I always like to err on the side of caution. Im not quick to jump on something new. Certain things bug me about vaping so I avoid these and try to keep things simple. And I try to stay informed.
I will try to keep this short, and civil.
Why on earth would your doc say most "vaping cases of lung disease are caused by regular vaping alone when it is a well know FACT (as far as we can figure out) that adulterants in fake cartridges caused the damage? That makes me suspicious a bit. It's just plain INCORRECT what your doctor is telling you.
Also your statement "traveled across the country looking for rare cases caused by VAPING."
Really? Why does he do that? Is he looking to make an "name" for himself by "inventing" a new syndrome?
I'm not sure that is the doctor I would want, personally. When you are a hammer everything looks like a nail, etc.
I don't know or trust your doc--- perhaps a name and some publications has made? Because from your descriptions of you doc he sounds biased and it make it hard for me to trust the information provider by you/ . No offense. Who is this guy and just how "special" is he?
Anna
Why on earth would your doc say most "vaping cases of lung disease are caused by regular vaping alone when it is a well know FACT (as far as we can figure out) that adulterants in fake cartridges caused the damage? That makes me suspicious a bit. It's just plain INCORRECT what your doctor is telling you.
Also your statement "traveled across the country looking for rare cases caused by VAPING."
Really? Why does he do that? Is he looking to make an "name" for himself by "inventing" a new syndrome?
I'm not sure that is the doctor I would want, personally. When you are a hammer everything looks like a nail, etc.
I don't know or trust your doc--- perhaps a name and some publications has made? Because from your descriptions of you doc he sounds biased and it make it hard for me to trust the information provider by you/ . No offense. Who is this guy and just how "special" is he?
Anna
Yeah, the longer the op keeps posting the more unsure I become of how to interpret what is being posted.
Theres a few red flags in it, for sure.
lol I'm done replying to the new members posting how there are red flags in my post, considering I outdate your membership and even vaping by half a decade in some cases. I got my message across which was if you are having sustained difficulty breathing, a worsening cough and episodes of shortness of breathe in the AM, consider to STOP VAPING. If you are looking to see if you have something similar happening, get an O2 meter and check your O2 levels.
If you find them to be usually low (under 98%), goto your nearly lung specialist and cease vaping. I won't be posting here anymore, but hopefully if someone finds themself in the same situation google will lead them here.
If you find them to be usually low (under 98%), goto your nearly lung specialist and cease vaping. I won't be posting here anymore, but hopefully if someone finds themself in the same situation google will lead them here.
Because the OP "outdates my membership and even vaping by half a decade in some cases" I am reticent to challenge their absolute authority and knowledge,
But yes there are a few patterns and bits of in the OP's posts that leave me wondering about the information the OP is sharing.
We have had propagandists from Big Tobacco on the ECF since the beginning.
They lie about smoking, they lie about vaping. Pathological.
They lie about smoking, they lie about vaping. Pathological.
Last edited:
Look, let me make my position clear – I am not saying I believe vaping is 95% safer, I am saying at this point I believe it to be much, much safer. I used this as a (stated simplistic) example, using a commonly used %, to illustrate the point:
'The number of deaths/ illnesses from smoking around the world is really high so substantial harm reduction would still be a long way from risk free.'
(I probably should have said 'the number of deaths/ illnesses attributed to smoking...)
The PHE was not presenting a % as fact, it's an assessment (which was reassessed recently with the same result). The criteria for arriving at an assessment can always be challenged or criticised - that is surely obvious and welcomed? The way the PHE does it's assessments should particularly be questioned as it's an executive agency (as the way the CDC does things should be questioned in the US). Nicotine vaping may eventually turn out to be better or worse than the PHE assessment and the RCP may revise their opinion, lots of things can change - but at this point they say what they say and you can evaluate it along with everything else. My current opinion is vaping is much safer and is my assessment of a number of reviews, reports, studies, research (including criticisms) and my own experience. (I did read the Lancet article when it was published). Of course YMMV (but I do seriously suggest you approach anything by Glanz with extreme caution).
Also the BMJ is a journal - it doesn't support anything- it provides provides published resources. There isn't a BMJ opinion on any issue as far as I am aware. Resources from the BMJ may be used to support or dispute any number of views of the same issue. (The Royal College of Physicians does express an opinion) I'm also done with this thread now.
So, what are we to learn from you as a pro vaper, a vaping advocate and an e-cigarette user? The whole problem with vaping is that there are only two sides. Pro and against. I have just tried to be a line down the middle. Maybe you should re-read my posts here and in the CT scan thread. Remember it is me that has taken injury, i'm sure I could make a much bigger fuss about it.
Perhaps to try and sum this all up here. Vaping COULD lead to lung injury of some sort or could not. What determines this is something that has to many factors to consider: Ratio of suspension fluid, strength of nicotine, SALT vs no SALT, flavor vs no flavor, flavor "X" to flavor "Y", high wattage vs low wattage, DIY vs vendor supplied juice, RBAs, wire type used etc etc etc. And this is just the vaping aspect. Then there is the former smoker aspect of it and all those factors....sheesh as we can see how the heck can we determine here what is good for someone vs not.
This is how I usually steer people into vaping that are curious about it that are smokers that want to stop. I tell them my setup. I try to explain high wattage / low wattage and tell them I like to stick to low wattage to play it safe. I tell them about PG / VG. My last mix ratio was 70VG/30PG and was going towards 60/40 as I couldnt tolerate 100% PG (made me feel very itchy as a weird side effect) but 100% VG I felt was to heavy and would make me wheeze. I say I like to stick to natural flavors based on simple fruit (apple, pear, my goto is blueberry pommegranate) and the juice should be clear in color. I tell them to becareful with the amount of nicotine and start them off usually light at 6MG and see how the feel from there. I tell them to not be obnoxious about it and turn into a cloud chaser, treat it like you would smoking. I think if you follow these guidlines your reaction and success to it could be a more positive one, but there just also a chance where a person just may not tolerate it well and to STOP it if it is causing them any discomfort of any sort.
In the OP's case, I dont think its wrong to say that something about vaping was screwing him up. And perhaps we are all a little on edge with whats going on right now regarding all these things poping up on vaping...heck it prompted me to dust off my account and sign in here. (I would always lurk tho) Ive been a member since 2010, but I dont think I started vaping full time until 2013/14 when ego 510 batteries became the rock star and messy drip tanks started to become a thing. I was a mini kanger protank 3 user until last year! All I ever wanted was a decent throat hit, where it felt like I was having a "smoke".
Im on day 4 of no vaping....starting to feel a sense of normalcy but still feel off....I miss it. At this point this is an experiment for me. Its Canadian Thanksgiving this weekend. Im not even going to try to fight a craving off, I will vape if the urge comes up as I want it to be a pleasant weekend lol
Im still not sure what Im going to do. I always invisioned quitting it a some point, but not through or by fear. But going forward if I end up caving, I will certainly adjust my habbitual use of it and keep it sparingly. But for anyone who has considered quitting vaping, and wants to talk send me a message. its similar to quitting smoking, maybe not as intense I would say as its only the nicotine withdrawl and NOT 4000 other things like in cigarettes.
This is how I usually steer people into vaping that are curious about it that are smokers that want to stop. I tell them my setup. I try to explain high wattage / low wattage and tell them I like to stick to low wattage to play it safe. I tell them about PG / VG. My last mix ratio was 70VG/30PG and was going towards 60/40 as I couldnt tolerate 100% PG (made me feel very itchy as a weird side effect) but 100% VG I felt was to heavy and would make me wheeze. I say I like to stick to natural flavors based on simple fruit (apple, pear, my goto is blueberry pommegranate) and the juice should be clear in color. I tell them to becareful with the amount of nicotine and start them off usually light at 6MG and see how the feel from there. I tell them to not be obnoxious about it and turn into a cloud chaser, treat it like you would smoking. I think if you follow these guidlines your reaction and success to it could be a more positive one, but there just also a chance where a person just may not tolerate it well and to STOP it if it is causing them any discomfort of any sort.
In the OP's case, I dont think its wrong to say that something about vaping was screwing him up. And perhaps we are all a little on edge with whats going on right now regarding all these things poping up on vaping...heck it prompted me to dust off my account and sign in here. (I would always lurk tho) Ive been a member since 2010, but I dont think I started vaping full time until 2013/14 when ego 510 batteries became the rock star and messy drip tanks started to become a thing. I was a mini kanger protank 3 user until last year! All I ever wanted was a decent throat hit, where it felt like I was having a "smoke".
Im on day 4 of no vaping....starting to feel a sense of normalcy but still feel off....I miss it. At this point this is an experiment for me. Its Canadian Thanksgiving this weekend. Im not even going to try to fight a craving off, I will vape if the urge comes up as I want it to be a pleasant weekend lol
Im still not sure what Im going to do. I always invisioned quitting it a some point, but not through or by fear. But going forward if I end up caving, I will certainly adjust my habbitual use of it and keep it sparingly. But for anyone who has considered quitting vaping, and wants to talk send me a message. its similar to quitting smoking, maybe not as intense I would say as its only the nicotine withdrawl and NOT 4000 other things like in cigarettes.
Maybe re-read my posts here and in the CT scan thread? I've made it perfectly clear I think it is important and necessary to hear about potential problems - but they shouldn't be reported as fact until there is evidence to support this.
If I fall down the stairs and break a leg, I can provide scientific evidence of the broken leg. I can't necessarily provide scientific evidence of the cause. My best guess as to the cause would be good enough for me, but I don't doubt somewhere there's a Forum where people would contest my opinion.
- Status
Similar threads
