Vaping Hypocricy?

[Baldr]

never mind

 

[Baldr]

No,
What I support, is a self-imposed ban on vaping anywhere you may have an effect on others (perceived or otherwise) who choose not to vape.
These "bans" come into effect when vapers lack common decency and good sense for themselves. vaping is banned in restaurants because vapers have vaped in restaurants. A silly and "entitled" thing to do in my opinion.
If everyone had (what I propose is..) common decency, and more importantly, common-sense, no "bans" would be necessary.

If it's up to you, we'll ban it ourselves.

But if we do that, it's banned regardless.

 

[DC2]

I'm sure you're right..
And again, it's an indication of cultural differences more than anything else I suppose..
OVER generalising again...
In this case, it seems the difference is..
Americans (not all, but some) will do something until someone tells them not to.
Australians (not all, but some) tend to self-regulate, so no-one has to tell them what they can and can't do.

Who has more "freedom"? Even to me, it's not entirely clear..
The end result tends to be similar... no vaping in enclosed spaces or eating establishments, or anywhere you could possibly "effect" others, or their experience of a time/place
One way has a sign and a "rule, the other does not, but the result is virtually the same...

j.

That's a very thought provoking post.
In our country, it's definitely about money, that much I know.

And what about your country?
Isn't it illegal to sell electronic cigarettes with nicotine?

That's pretty much the same thing we face here, money and power making laws that protect their profits.

 

[EddardinWinter]

Some of these answers are hopefully tongue-in-cheek, if not, the poster should be ashamed of themselves, assuming they live in a civil society with other human beings. Vaping is not a right, it is a privilege and a personal choice. You know what they say though, it just takes one bad apple to ruin the whole bunch. My fellow vapers, respect other people's right to not be subjected to it for whatever reason that may be, well-founded or not.

I should be ashamed of myself for believing I have a right to vape in a public place and posting the same?

I do believe I have a right to use a legal product in a public place. I frequently get the owner's permission prior to vaping.
I post my belief in this all the time.
I am in no way ashamed of these facts.

I don't permit people being offended for ill-founded reasons to make me change the way I vape, speak, eat, or drink. I suppose I should be ashamed of this, too. I am not.

 

[Fyerwall]

We don't need official bans or even self imposed bans.

What we need as vapers is to show some consideration and restraint. Be respectful of those around you. Ask if they mind. Consider that while the liquid you are using may be tasty to you, the aroma may be pungent to others. My girlfriend loves her Maple Rum Tobacco flavor, but she knows that it does tend to stink up the place after a bit, so she takes it to another room. Her favorite flavor does also leave a thick after effect in the air that one can physically taste when they walk in the room several minutes later.

While we have a right to do things, we don't always do it out of consideration for others. You have a right to not be forced to wear deodorant, but most people do as to not offend the noses of others.

Don't be militant about your right. Be vigilant. But also be respectful. The more you impose your right on others for the wrong reasons, the more willing they will be to have it taken away from you.

 

[Joshinthecity]

Bolded segment one. There is almost zero evidence to support the assertion that bans on vaping are the result of a ban causing militant vaper. Many of these bans are statewide bans and had nothing to do with any individual vaper. This does not mean vapers shouldn't be courteous, it just means that band happen because of ANTZ, not because of vapers.

Bolded segment two. You think I should ask permission to vape outside? Did I read that correctly?

I do agree with much of what you said.

I cannot refute that bit about Australia and bans in general, but I think you cannot import nicotine in e-liquid because of a ban. Did that happen because of some obnoxious vaper?

Seg 1:
Are you proposing that if no one gave your Govt a "reason" to ban ecigs in certain places, they would have done so anyway? If so, this is a fundamental issue you have I was not aware of.. and again, different to here.
Seg 2:
I think you should ask permission to vape when you're outside if there is someone there with you, not vaping, close enough to ask, yes...

The Australian "ban" that you're referring to was in place long before vaping... it's true it exists, but also true that it is not related to the issue at hand. Nic is a class-(somethingorother?) poison, and as such, is subject to certain regulation.
It is perfectly legal for anyone here to import nic juice for use in a vaping device.
As vaping becomes more mainstream and understood, we're expecting the ban to be lifted in relation to ecigs.
j.

 

[emus]

Cologne was invented to cover up body odor, which was rampant at the time. I'm pretty sure the strong smell of colognes and perfumes was preferred.

I can walk away from body odor but can't walk away from cologne induced migraine.

 

[Fulgurant]

Now, the next statement is going to annoy some people, but it's the truth and a simple statement of fact.
In Australia there are NO official "bans" that I know of...
You can be sure the reason for this.... is because people here (gross generalisation warning) have less of the "rights" and "entitlement" mentality, and don't NEED to be banned. They make what I consider good judgement calls when and where to vape.
And, yes, the above comes from an Aussie that has spent a lot of time in the U.S over the last 25 years or so.

Interesting theory. I guess people in the USA are less entitled than Aussies on the subject of swearing in public then?

Vic anti-swearing laws are #@$%

Perhaps Aussies are also too in-your-face entitled about eating fattening foods?

The obesity epidemic

Or maybe, just maybe, you're blaming the wrong party here -- the victim. Maybe both of our countries (and sadly, dozens more) have more than their fair share of dimwitted public-health nutjobs, and each country's group of nutjobs campaigns (or makes so-called progress) in various areas at a slightly different pace?

Just a thought. If you truly believe that all bans must be caused by the bad behavior of the bans' targets (and therefore, by extension, that all bans are reasonable), then in my view your problem is that your attitude isn't "entitled" enough.

 

[EddardinWinter]

The Australian "ban" that you're referring to was in place long before vaping... it's true it exists, but also true that it is not related to the issue at hand. Nic is a class-(somethingorother?) poison, and as such, is subject to certain regulation.
It is perfectly legal for anyone here to import nic juice for use in a vaping device.
As vaping becomes more mainstream and understood, we're expecting the ban to be lifted in relation to ecigs.
j.

This kind of makes my point. Nobody abused nicotine for it's import to be banned. It was done for some other reason.

What I am saying is this. Well-lobbied groups are behind nearly 100% of the bans in the United States. Vapers don't cause bans, in my experience.

 

[Rickajho]

What do vapors really want when it comes to where they feel they have the 'right' to vape? It's interesting that there are two threads here today. One is about where vapors feel it's okay to vape and the other is about smokers complaining about the smell of some vapes. In the latter thread, posters have mentioned liquids that smell pretty awful. In the other thread, they are posters who say they vape pretty much wherever they want.

Contrary to what some may think, vapor does create a smell and sometimes that smell isn't so pleasant. Do vapers have a right to impose that smell on other people, especially in closed situations like a restaurant? And yeah, there are people out there who smell up areas with perfume, food, bad breath, etc., but isn't using that to justify vaping hypocritical?

Personally, I've always thought that smoking, and now vaping, should be up to business owners, not the government. This gives people a choice.

If you have already noticed "that there are two threads here today..." your point in starting yet a third thread over a proven contentious topic would be... what? Rehashing this topic for the 147th time doesn't improve the odds of a more enlightened outcome.

 

[Joshinthecity]

That's a very thought provoking post.
In our country, it's definitely about money, that much I know.

And what about your country?
Isn't it illegal to sell electronic cigarettes with nicotine?

That's pretty much the same thing we face here, money and power making laws that protect their profits.

See previous post re legality here in Oz. The law you're referring to has nothing whatsoever to do with vaping.
Please understand, none if this is intended to be "my" country Vs "your" country. Although I do think the differences are interesting in this case.
Your point about it being "about money" is equally thought provoking to me, and proposes another (and probably best avoided) discussion all together.. about lobbyists etc in your Govt. Which I assume is what you're referring to....
One thing is for sure and certain.. NO system is perfect, but when big business begins to make, or persuade, governmental decisions, as opposed to your representatives making decisions "for the people", which I assume relates to the majority... things get immeasurably more complex..

I will be the first to admit I (we?) should keep politics out of this as much as possible, although I realise it is relevant to some degree.
I'm absolutely positive we have just as many messed-up illogical laws and regulations as you. Maybe more, just in areas other than this one.
j.

 

[vaperature]

If you have already noticed "that there are two threads here today..." your point in starting yet a third thread over a proven contentious topic would be... what?

This topic never leads to anything but angry meltdowns. Personally I don't understand why people feel the need to vape everywhere. I can go quite a while without having to vape and when I really "need" a vape there's nothing that doing it outside or wherever it's allowed isn't going to give me that I'm going to get from it inside or where it's not allowed. Same vape into the same mouth into the same lungs.

 

[Robino1]

I'm not familiar with the studies but common sense tells me that if you're in a room full of people who are vaping you are going to be breathing in nicotine, which although it may be way less harmful than cigarette smoke, has still been shown to cause birth defects. I'm not really a supporter of smoking bans except in eating establishments. If a bar wants to let people smoke in it, then non-smokers don't have to go to that bar. However, since the laws ARE in effect, I don't see any real distinction between vaping and smoking.

Nicotine causes birth defects? Since when? A new ANTZ lie? If nic or even smoking caused birth defects, most all of our parents, grandparents and in some cases our own children would have birth defects. Do you really believe that statement?

No,
What I support, is a self-imposed ban on vaping anywhere you may have an effect on others (perceived or otherwise) who choose not to vape.
These "bans" come into effect when vapers lack common decency and good sense for themselves. Vaping is banned in restaurants because vapers have vaped in restaurants. A silly and "entitled" thing to do in my opinion.
If everyone had (what I propose is..) common decency, and more importantly, common-sense, no "bans" would be necessary.

Obviously, again, common sense should prevail, if you are outside and near someone who you suspect may "get" it.. just ask, if they say cool, then cool, if they say no, then it's no.. If you want to be reductionist about it.. the person blowing nothing into the air has precedent over someone blowing something in the air..
My wife doesn't vape, but she understands what it's all about very well. She's super-fine with me vaping in the house around her. But you can NOT assume a member of the public, or an establishment owner to be cool..nor do I think they should be expected to be.

Now, the next statement is going to annoy some people, but it's the truth and a simple statement of fact.
In Australia there are NO official "bans" that I know of...
You can be sure the reason for this.... is because people here (gross generalisation warning) have less of the "rights" and "entitlement" mentality, and don't NEED to be banned. They make what I consider good judgement calls when and where to vape.
And, yes, the above comes from an Aussie that has spent a lot of time in the U.S over the last 25 years or so.

Things are different here to there, not better or worse.. just different.. It's just a culture thing I think...
j.

They've been trying to ban vaping before vaping became as mainstream as it is now. Before there were as many vapers as we have today. Most of the local bans that are happening and the people that sit on those local councils have Never.Seen.An.E-cig! It has absolutely nothing to do with seeing anyone blow a cloud of vapor. Guess who shows up at even the last minute council meetings, when our side doesn't have time to mobilize people to attend because there is no advanced notice? ANTZ do. Now, how are they able to show up with a day or even only hours notification? Maybe because they initiated those ordinances. And yes, that did just happen this last week.

 

[spartanstew]

Anyone who is saying we should not vape where we can not smoke is making that argument.
Even if they don't realize it yet.

I believe they're saying that They don't vape where smoking is not allowed. Big difference.

 

[Joshinthecity]

Interesting theory. I guess people in the USA are less entitled than Aussies on the subject of swearing in public then?

Vic anti-swearing laws are #@$%

Perhaps Aussies are also too in-your-face entitled about eating fattening foods?

The obesity epidemic

Or maybe, just maybe, you're blaming the wrong party here -- the victim. Maybe both of our countries (and sadly, dozens more) have more than their fair share of dimwitted public-health nutjobs, and each country's group of nutjobs campaigns (or makes so-called progress) in various areas at a slightly different pace?

Just a thought. If you truly believe that all bans must be caused by the bad behavior of the bans' targets (and therefore, by extension, that all bans are reasonable), then in my view your problem is that your attitude isn't "entitled" enough.

LOL. I did mention a few times that I was knowingly over-generalising.
Make NO MISTAKE, our country is just, as or possibly more, messed up than most in some ways.
There will always be specific cases (factually correct or otherwise) to quote to make a point.
This is not a competition.
It's a dialogue, and as such I'm not trying to "win" or be "right" .
Just sharing my opinions generally, as relates to what has come before.

I don't truly believe that ALL bans must be caused by the ban's targets. That would be ridiculous.
Just in this one particular case (as opposed to other, completely unrelated cases) it seems the regulations you face and we do not, are brought about to some degree by the vapers themselves..doing things others would consider inflammatory, almost challenging the authorities to make them stop, then considering there freedom curtailed.

j.

 

[vaperature]

Nicotine causes birth defects? Since when? A new ANTZ lie? If nic or even smoking caused birth defects, most all of our parents, grandparents and in some cases our own children would have birth defects. Do you really believe that statement?

I don't know if I believe it or not, but there have been studies to suggest nicotine causes birth defects and this warning about it does appear on a lot of nicotine products. I think, though I'd have to look at it again to be sure, but I think the last time I saw the warning was when I was purchasing my nic solution from Wizard. Even if there's the slightest chance it could, why would I want to risk it just to satiate my own desire to have a vape?

 

[spartanstew]

I can walk away from body odor but can't walk away from cologne induced migraine.

And a body odor induced migraine?

 

[Fulgurant]

Seg 1:
Are you proposing that if no one gave your Govt a "reason" to ban ecigs in certain places, they would have done so anyway? If so, this is a fundamental issue you have I was not aware of.. and again, different to here.

[...]

As vaping becomes more mainstream and understood, we're expecting the ban to be lifted in relation to ecigs.
j.

Oh, I see. You're an optimist who understandably isn't up to date on what it is we're fighting, both in the United States and abroad. Don't worry; I didn't believe it at first either, but it turns out there's a whole industry full of human-sized leeches who have made it their job to restrict individual behavior in the name of public health. Why does that industry exist? Because there's money floating around looking for a purpose, and self-interest dictates that there will always be people happy to invent a purpose for under-employed funding.

I'm far from an expert on Australia, but rest assured, you have plenty of your own nutjobs -- the Cancer Council of Australia, for example.

On the subject of e-cigarettes, you have Simon Chapman.

Your positive attitude is laudable, but I'm afraid wishful thinking ain't gonna win the battle for you.

 

[six]

I am allergic to some scents. In conversation with people about this I have found that people not allergic feel assaulted by how heavy some people choose to wear it. As already stated in this thread - "Your rights end where my nose begins" (and that is metaphoric even if it fits what I said literally).

I'm allergic to horse dander and cats. So, does that mean people who work with horses and people who own cats can't go about their normal business in a public place because I might need to be there? Even if that's what you think it should mean, I certainly don't. I learned to recognize my symptoms and act accordingly on my own behalf. I grew up with a severe milk allergy (thankfully not so severe any more, but still present). Should restaurants be required to have a dairy free version of everything on their menu to accommodate me? How about just food counters and vending machines that are inside govt buildings? Don't I deserve the exact same culinary experience others might get from a Hershey bar sold from a vending machine at the DMV? Or maybe because I can't enjoy a hershey bar without getting sick, maybe no one should be able to buy a hershey bar on public property? - How ridiculous to we let these things get? At what point is enough enough?

 

[spartanstew]

Nicotine causes birth defects? Since when?

I believe that was determined back in the 70's. Unless you're using symantics (causes versus higher risk)? Nicotine use among pregnant women leads to a higher percentage of birth defects than non. Smoking in general does the same, and most of the chemicals in smoking causes/increase the risk in different defects. Nocotine, for example, causes blood vessels to constrict which may reduce oxygen to the fetus. I thought this was a well known fact, no?