Vaping is not a complete substitute for tobacco smoking

[TropicalBob]

Katink, that was a very studied -- learned -- post. There is wisdom there.

This has become an excellent thread. I PM'd Kate to post that initial study; we're getting contributions that add to knowledge. You have correctly pointed out individual differences, something Smokey Joe and I discussed last January. How can some smokers just up and quit? Never miss the things. The vast majority fail, even with nicotine replacement.

I hope future studies discovery a meaningful difference between those who succeed and those who fail. The conclusion surely will be something far beyond an explanation like "willpower", a notion that is simply insulting.

 

[BadSeed]

It's definitely not just the nicotine and the act of smoking.

I've had a cigarette on my way home from work, as I was craving the real thing. Back to vaping now, but I'm not going to beat myself up about it. I'll just have a cigarette when I feel like I need one rather than the e-cig.

I definitely agree with TB about the conclusion of possible future studies. There's more to this addiction than meets the eye.

 

[surbitonPete]

I have been e-smoking for a month ..I went straight for the highest 36 mg nicotine because I am so addicted to smoking, I didn't expect any less strength to have any chance of satisfying me.....it has worked for me...yet I have given in about five times to an overwhelming urge to have a 'real' smoke ....but every time afterwards I felt as if there had been no reason to do it... It's almost as if my mind can't quite accept that e-smoking is satisfying me. .....I think it's possible that after all the years of patches, chewing gum, hypnotism, acupuncture and every thing else that I have tried with no success, my mind is finding it very hard to accept that I am not even suffering from a need for a 'real' smoke.

 

[katink]

You have correctly pointed out individual differences, something Smokey Joe and I discussed last January. How can some smokers just up and quit? Never miss the things. The vast majority fail, even with nicotine replacement.

Note here, that I indeed 'just upped and quitted'... and save for a few moments never missed the things right from the start. But I had tried stopping before, WITH NRT... and it didn't work at all. So at least from my point of view there is something extra to this route of e-smoking that misses in the normal NRT; and not just the part of 'keeping the habit' - else by now, after a year, I shouldn't have any problem going with 0 nic... and I can't (though I do manage to stay at a modest 11mg, no need to go higher for me).
And another but: I don't miss tobacco at all... but I know I can only say that while using the e-device, I know I wouldn't be able to pull it off even at this stage to go without that; even if I definately don't wánt to go back to tobacco nor have that urge... but I'd still probably fall off the wagon again without e-vapor...

I hope future studies discovery a meaningful difference between those who succeed and those who fail. The conclusion surely will be something far beyond an explanation like "willpower", a notion that is simply insulting.

Couldn't agree more on the willpower... it is insulting indeed (and I for one can fully say I did not nééd willpower... it happened as it did; and totaly amazed me... so indeed, willpower is not really in the equation, with e-vaporizing... on either side.

 

[AmyRossini]

at this point I think the other chemicals we are addicted to are most likely gone. I dont have cravings for them when im vaping so the mental effected of blowing smoke has worked at making you not realize what you were addicted to.

The best thing to do is take this as a mind game the big tobacco is playing with us. If we think we are addicted to the paper in the analog then we will be. It is all in your head.

I don't believe this is true, you should read the article posted by Kate, dated Paris, 23 January 2009. There's definitively something more than nicotine and whatever is in your head. It might be easier for some individuals than others and lucky you if you think it was only in your head. We now have to wait and see the results of the above mentioned research (hopefully it is a serious one) to know what else is addictive in the "analogs".
And I think is not in the best interest of the "big tobacco"(if you mean the tobacco companies) to make you believe there's something in the paper or anything else, just the opposite.

 

[pointedobject]

Putting my 2 cents experience in - I easily switched to vaping about 3 weeks ago after smoking a pack a day for 20 years. I pretty much had no cravings and was really surprised and happy about it after trying and failing to quit many times before.
But, a few days ago the cravings have set in and they have been getting increasingly difficult to cope with. I caved a few times in the past couple of days and I'm glad I read about this so at least I have an idea why I'm reacting this way. I always heard the first 2 weeks are the hardest - funny how it seems to be the opposite with me...

 

[MoonMan]

So is it safe to assume that if you stick with e-cigs (and ONLY e-cigs) for long enough, your addiction to the other drugs in analogs will pass? I'm hoping this is the case - the article mentioned something about your "natural protection" returning after a couple months. I have been vaping for a couple weeks now, and while I still occasionally get the urge for an analog, the craving seems to be fading and I can easily ignore it. This has also been the longest I have gone without a smoke since I started in the first place. I'm still somewhat worried about having drinks and wanting an analog (I've only had a couple drinks here and there since I've started) - but going out and getting a good buzz on makes me worried. That was what always tripped me up before when I was using nicotine gum and lozenges - smokes and booze just go together - and it's hard to chew gum and drink!

 

[Cymri]

Hi Folks,

I'm curious whether anyone has followed up on this yet. Anyone added some passion flower or syrian rue seed extract to a mix for some subjective testing?

I'm in my first week of vaping without smoking any tobacco and I certainly notice that while vaping is satisfying enough there is indeed a difference in the "impact" as compared with smoking an analog cigarette. It's a million times closer to the "real thing" than gum or patches, but the scientist in me wonders what the missing element is.

I studied molecular biology at the University of Texas and am quite encouraged to see some biochem savvy folks here on this forum! When I first read about the MAOI component to smoking it was an "aha" moment. It explains so much why NRP products like nicorette and the patch are largely ineffective for quitting smoking.

I have done a quick search to try and find the boiling point of harmine but I'm not finding it yet. Nicotine vaporizes at 477 F so I assume atomizers run near 500 F. Clearly whatever MAOI alkaloid is in cigarettes - harman, norharman it seems - vaporize at the heat of the cherry. Whether they would at the heat of the atomizer is the question.

There's alot of "beware" in the literature about MAOI's. Caution is certainly warranted considering issues like serotonin syndrome and such. But MAOI's are pretty ubiquitous- we get fairly significant amounts in coffee and alot of foods. One thing I am concerned about with vaping is whether I am putting significantly more amounts of nicotine in my body than I do when I smoke "analogs" in order to get the same CNS effects. If indeed small amounts of MAOI's in cigarettes potentiate the nicotine, then the safety concerns about MAOI's may be more than offset by having less nicotine in the body.

In essence I can see how a balanced MAOI/nicotine mix is "smart" in the sense that pharamceutical R&D uses it to mean targeted to a specific organ or tissue - the CNS in this case. The MAOI "activates" the nicotine so that much less is needed. That acts to limit the well known negative side effects of nicotine - primarily on the circulatory system and heart. Food for thought.

 

[yvilla]

Nicotine vaporizes at 477 F so I assume atomizers run near 500 F.

Cymri, I believe our atomizers run at a lesser temperature, more like 150 to 250 F range.

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...583-what-temperatures-do-atomizers-reach.html

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...test-electrial-properties-different-mods.html

I've also seen reports outside this forum that nicotine in tobacco vaporizes at around 150 to 200 degrees F. For example:

Herb Vaporizer - Reduce Smoking Side Effects ! | DrHitesh.com

We can tell that we are getting nicotine from ecigs, so I've got to assume that nicotine does become available in vapor form at a lower temperature than you posted.

 

[Kate]

Are you sure you're not thinking of degrees C rather than F Yvilla?

 

[yvilla]

Are you sure you're not thinking of degrees C rather than F Yvilla?

Yes, I'm sure.

 

[Kate]

Ok, sorry. It just doesn't sound right to me. My I-Inhale vaporiser keeps a steady temperature of 190 degrees C apparently for vaporising herbs and tobacco.

I'm not good with temperature measurements though.

 

[TropicalBob]

I'm in my first week of vaping without smoking any tobacco and I certainly notice that while vaping is satisfying enough there is indeed a difference in the "impact" as compared with smoking an analog cigarette. It's a million times closer to the "real thing" than gum or patches, but the scientist in me wonders what the missing element is.

I studied molecular biology at the University of Texas and am quite encouraged to see some biochem savvy folks here on this forum! When I first read about the MAOI component to smoking it was an "aha" moment. It explains so much why NRP products like nicorette and the patch are largely ineffective for quitting smoking.

One thing I am concerned about with vaping is whether I am putting significantly more amounts of nicotine in my body than I do when I smoke "analogs" in order to get the same CNS effects. If indeed small amounts of MAOI's in cigarettes potentiate the nicotine, then the safety concerns about MAOI's may be more than offset by having less nicotine in the body.

In essence I can see how a balanced MAOI/nicotine mix is "smart" in the sense that pharamceutical R&D uses it to mean targeted to a specific organ or tissue - the CNS in this case. The MAOI "activates" the nicotine so that much less is needed. That acts to limit the well known negative side effects of nicotine - primarily on the circulatory system and heart. Food for thought.

A huge welcome to the forum. You are so right! Please continue to contribute to our knowledge base here. I had my own aha moment reading the same article. It's true. It's true. It's true! It explains why e-cigs (and all NRT products) don't "cut it" for me. Habit? E-smoking helps. Addiction? This is no substitute for a tobacco cigarette.

 

[yvilla]

Ok, sorry. It just doesn't sound right to me. My I-Inhale vaporiser keeps a steady temperature of 190 degrees C apparently for vaporising herbs and tobacco.

I'm not good with temperature measurements though.

Well if you look at Madog's and Jaaxx's measurements, in the two ECF threads I linked to, the temperatures are at the lower end of the range I wrote. I upped it from their measurements, because they were not reaching all the way down into the nichrome wire, just measuring the top part of the atomizers.

 

[yvilla]

Ok, sorry. It just doesn't sound right to me. My I-Inhale vaporiser keeps a steady temperature of 190 degrees C apparently for vaporising herbs and tobacco.

I'm not good with temperature measurements though.

Another thought, Kate. Isn't the higher temperature of your I-Inhale device one of the things that is giving you trouble with the flavor with liquids? I thought I saw that in your comments on E-Cig Test forum.

 

[Kate]

Yes, the temperature has been an issue, it seems that flavours vaporise faster than the propylene glycol.

 

[Kate]

Hi Cymri, you might find this thread of interest, apparently there is harmine in passion flower - http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/health-safety-e-smoking/6739-passion-flower-has-harmine.html

 

[rejoice]

Kate, what is Harmine? In your post you ask the question. Would it help to dose with harmine?

 

[Kate]

It's a bit technical for me Rejoice but it has something to do with dopamine receptors in our brains. I think nicotine prompts the production of dopamine which makes us feel good and then levels reduce but harmine somehow makes the effects last longer or make them more intense, I'm not sure. It's probably one of the things we miss when we stop using tobacco and that's why vaping isn't as satisfying for some people.

I might have the details wrong but you can find out more here:
Harmine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[rejoice]

I read the article and it seems that harmine is in tobacco,passion flower,passion fruit. So do you think that taking some passion flower may help? I don't want to take any prescription drugs for this. Maybe a litle passion flower?