Vaping is not a complete substitute for tobacco smoking

[LuckyCharm]

I'll go ahead and add my two cents here. I've been smoking for over 30 years -- tried once to quit, seriously, to please my abusive ex-husband, but since we were both quitting and cranky at the same time, plus I gained weight, I finally just left him instead. Much easier. Since then, I've laughed at every suggestion I quit -- why on earth would I want to? I like smoking! And if somebody doesn't like me smoking... well, I haven't met anybody that damned special yet... Take me as I am, 'cause I ain't quittin' for nobody, ever again!

I read a newspaper article about e-cigs some months ago and was intrigued, but when I researched the company they profiled, I wasn't confident, so I dropped the idea. Then, about a month ago, a couple of guys came into a bar I happened to be at, smoking their PV's. They let me try a few puffs. Yep, I decided, this was what I wanted.

You see, I really was in denial about the wheezing in my chest when I took a deep breath, the coughing and hacking throughout the night that was destroying my sleep, the breathlessness that seemed to be coming on more and more quickly with intense physical exertion. "Oh, I must be coming down with something," "I'm just stressed, that's why I'm breathing hard," etc. etc.

So these guys gave me their card, and while I didn't wind up going with their particular product, I was hooked on PV's even before my first one arrived. And I'm doubly hooked on them now! I feel healthier; food tastes better; no more coughing, burn holes, dirty ashtrays, going outside in hellish weather just to grab a few tokes... all that stuff.

Patches and gum would never have worked for me. I need the throat hit, and I need to see the rich vapor going out.

I had some trouble with my first unit, although that's been resolved. But just in case, I've ordered two other units from two other companies as a backup. I don't ever want to lose my PV's now!

And, as someone who has actually excused herself to go smoke on a first date -- even though I knew that meant it'd be the last date -- I can vouch that I absolutely do not crave cigarettes as long as I have my PV. Okay, I'll admit that walking through a cloud of other people's smoke in a smoking area still smells "good" (or maybe tempting) to me, but I just pull out my PV and take a nice long drag.

Just think -- I can once again see movies in the movie theater; go bowling; linger over dessert or something without fidgeting for a smoke; visit my folks without making them hunt for something I can use for an ashtray, knowing they're going to gag when they have to discard it; etc. etc. etc.

It's a complete substitute, to me, hands down.

~~Cheryl

 

[Faethe]

The bit about caffeine is true. I wondered why I increased my coffee intake when I gave up smokes, you know? I get terrible headache if I've forgot to have a coffee.

 

[jmcclimo2003]

All the MAOI talk got me googling and I found this:

Nicotine and Dependence - upmc

So it appears research is ongoing and may help make NRT more effective in the near future.

 

[Oliver]

Just thought I'd add this link - Tobacco : the most dangerous drug in the world

and this one: http://www.ethnobotanicals.com/ayahuasca-banisteriopsis-caapi.html

 

[Hanna]

I am down to 6 to 10 cigarettes a day...11mg of nicotine. I bought 30ml of 24mg flavored, and I bought 30ml of 0, flavored. If I mix those together I will have 60ml of flavored 12mg. If I take a 1ml out of that and add to that 1ml of unflavored VG, plus flavoring, my mix will then be 6mg and if I suck on that all day like a pacifier, I am sure I won't go over my limit, unless I use more than the 2 ml. in a day. Will I use more than 2 mil in a day?

This is really all quite hilarious. Smoking was always so simple. Pick up a cigarette, put it in your mouth, light it, puff, blow, smile continue until the cigarette is burned up. I never anticipated a lot of things when I thought this was going to replace cigarettes. I never objected to the taste of cigarettes I guess, but I don't recall I ever yearned for the "taste" of one, not like I yearn for chocolate anyway Then I think about smoking a cigarette that tastes like candy and I can feel the conflict that is going to cause as that relates to smoking in my brain. HEY, are we eating or smoking here lady!! I have used candies before trying to quit smoking. Do you know how fast a bowl of those christmas hard candies can disappear? I am afraid I am going to be puffing on my e-cig like that. I guess when asked what we are doing I need to be sure to say smoking huh))

Hey thanks for all the information, you folks are wonderful.

 

[SS109]

I just finished reading this entire thread. I must say that this is a great thread with lots of info and ideas. I'm really interested to where these ideas lead so please update us from time to time.

 

[ladyraj]

AHHH! You are kidding me right? Check the premise of the thread for study that "proves" smoking cigarettes has an MAOI in it. MAOIs are medications that have serious interaction effects with other drugs and foods. When a client is put on this mood-altering substance they have diet restrictions and the pairing with some drugs can be fatal.

An old abstract: Tobacco smoke, beta-carboline alkaloids, and reversible MAO inhibition

ABSTRACT

Monoamine oxidase (MAO) is a mitochondrial outer-membrane flavoenzyme involved in brain and peripheral oxidative catabolism of neurotransmitters and xenobiotic amines, including neurotoxic amines, and a well-known target for antidepressant and neuroprotective drugs. Recently, positron emission tomography imaging has shown that smokers have a much lower activity of peripheral and brain MAO-A (30%) and -B (40%) isozymes compared to non-smokers. This MAO inhibition results from a pharmacological effect of smoke, but little is known about its mechanism. Working with mainstream smoke collected from commercial cigarettes we confirmed that cigarette smoke is a potent inhibitor of human MAO-A and -B isozymes. MAO inhibition was partly reversible, competitive for MAO-A, and a mixed-type inhibition for MAO-B. Two beta-carboline alkaloids, norharman (beta-carboline) and harman (1-methyl-beta-carboline), were identified by GC-MS, quantified, and isolated from the mainstream smoke by solid phase extraction and HPLC. Kinetics analysis revealed that beta-carbolines from cigarette smoke were competitive, reversible, and potent inhibitors of MAO enzymes. Norharman was an inhibitor of MAO-A (K(i)=1.2+/-0.18muM) and MAO-B (K(i)=1.12+/-0.19muM), and harman of MAO-A (K(i)=55.54+/-5.3nM). beta-Carboline alkaloids are psychopharmacologically active compounds that may occur endogenously in human tissues, including the brain. These results suggest that beta-carboline alkaloids from cigarette smoke acting as potent reversible inhibitors of MAO enzymes may contribute to the MAO-reduced activity produced by tobacco smoke in smokers. The presence of MAO inhibitors in smoke like beta-carbolines and others may help us to understand some of the purported neuropharmacological effects associated with smoking.

My Remarks: So, based on PET scans smokers have a 30% and 40% level of decrease in MAO that may have competative, interactional, and reversible effects. Two beta-carboline alkaloids, harman and norharman were isolated from mainstream smoke and offered as the source for the inhibitory effect on the MAO.

Let's analyze what that means...

Pet scans are a wonderful tool but unfortunately the images are still interpreted from what theory we use to guesstimate what the chemicals in our brains are doing. But they are cool...!

Since a smoker's petscan shows decreased MAO enzymes one would assume they are less depressed, not a bad thing. But smokers may also be biologically wired from birth to have decreased MAO activity. Their environment and inherent flexibility may also impact the brain chemistry. The scans are not demonstrating cause and effect.

Isolating two beta-carboline alkaloids, harman and norharman, from mainstream smoke to offer as the probable culprits of this action is quite interesting but funny. Thus, I suspect the premise. If the agonist of harman is norharman, then the effect is a canceling out...the authors refer to this as competing and reversible. The same thing happens with epinephrine and norepinephrine (adrenaline and noradrenaline).

The use of the terminolgy such as suggestive, may, purported, etc is indicative that this is a theory that requires more research. One should view these findings with cautioned interest in my opinion.
​

 

[ladyraj]

All the MAOI talk got me googling and I found this:

Nicotine and Dependence - upmc

So it appears research is ongoing and may help make NRT more effective in the near future.

I'm not as optimistic. From your link (excerpt):

"YOUR STUDIES SHOW THAT NICOTINE IS DANGEROUS WHEN ASSOCIATED WITH CERTAIN SUBSTANCES: WHICH ONES?
It has long been known that tobacco smoke contains several hundred different molecules, some of which have not yet been identified. Some of these are Monoamine oxidase inhibitors or MAOIs. MAOIs artificially increase levels of the neuromediator serotonin, which causes the desensitizing of one of its receptors, 5-HT1A. This receptor protects the neurons that produce serotonin from the effect of the nicotine. Therefore, MAOIs allow nicotine to demonstrate its addictive power, whereas neither nicotine nor MAOIs have addictive effects on their own. It must also be stressed that although these experiments put nicotine’s role in tobacco dependence into perspective, they in no way question the addictive potential of cigarettes. In fact, we have shown that the neurochemical effects induced in animals by nicotine, when associated with a MAOI, are equivalent to those observed with psychostimulants (......., amphetamines), opiates (morphine, ......) or alcohol.

My remarks: Got to love the terminology!!! Yes people the good doctor will have you believe that we DON'T KNOW all of the constituents of smoking tobacco, but WE DO KNOW everything about neurotransmitters and individual biological differences (in mice!, once they get to pigs it may be more fun, humans even better).

The serotonin theory has been around for years, the authors are simply pairing it with an MAOI, and professing that "ah ha" one drug potentiates the effect of another. This is an obvious finding and a real stretch to accomodate tobacco smoking as "the deadliest drug addiction". If you choose not to believe the above comments simply google "5-HT1A" and view the fun with animals and depression neurochemical processes decribed in theory. Kick the idea around a couple days and find alternative explanations, there are many.

At the end of the day ..you must answer the question of how we know so much about what is going on in our heads but can not isolate the molecules released in the use of a common product...the cigarette.

Here is an interesting dissertation analysis of women and the 5-HT system:

Dissertations from Karolinska Institutet - Published by Karolinska Institutet Karolinska Institutet - ki.se

Excerpt:
"The serotonin (5-HT) system is of central interest in the pathophysiology and treatment of several psychiatric disorders including depression, anxiety and suicide. In women, functioning of the 5-HT system is of particular importance since they have been found to suffer more often from 5-HT-associated disorders compared to men. The aim of the present thesis was to further explore the central serotonergic system in women by examining 5- HT1A receptors and 5-HTT binding in two psychiatric disorders, borderline personality disorder (BPD) and premenstrual dysphoric disorder (PMDD), during different phases of the menstrual cycle and in relation to gender."

My Remarks: Please note that the bolded section that proclaims that women suffer more from disorders associated with 5-HT. That sentence alone spells trouble for the tobacoo smoking 5-HT pairing. Simply stated...more men smoke than women...therefore more men, by the odds ratio, should suffer from disorders related to 5-HT (except PMDD ).

One could counter my sex differences argument with the self-medicating theory...more men smoke in response to deficits in the 5-HT thereby reducing the incidence of mental illness. But I find the lack of diagnoses for approximately half the population a counter argument in itself. Why wouldn't more women smoke to increase homeostasis?

If your willing to trade a cigarette abuse/dependent diagnosis with something a little more serious than you too can be coded via the DSM (you'll be in good company). As a female, I find the above association particularly troubling.

 

[paladinx]

wow @ this thread lol

 

[imsewsure]

LuckyCharm - I'm with you - I've only been smoking for about 20 years and have tried to quit several, several, several times before my e-cig. In the early years, it was always cold turkey and lasted about 3 hours so I don't really count that time in my life (lol). Once Zyban came out, I used it to quit completely for a few months and realized how easy it was to quit so I started smoking again (now that's crazy logic, I know). Recently I've used the patch and was able to quit for days at a time. I found that my biggest problem is that I LIKE to smoke. When I take a break from working, I smoke. When me and my husband get home from work, we recap our day over smoking. When I'm drinking my coffee in the morning, I smoke. While I'm drinking a beer, I smoke. After a big, tasty meal, I smoke. Anyway, my e-cig has been absolutely amazing. I think I like it more than a real cig because I can "chain smoke" my nic-free juice.

When I get that thought in the back of my mind like I forgot something and realize it's just that I need to go smoke, I grab my e-cig and it really quells my urge to smoke.


Hanna - your post is the perfect example of why I was pretty sure that the e-cig would not work for my husband. He's on the gum right now but still smokes a few analogs a day.

I'm happy to say that I went to a party on Friday night and did some heavy drinking and never once craved an analog. I, actually, enjoyed some time inside the house with all of the non-smokers (which is unusual for me).

 

[Halfzipp]

./rantOn

I didnt read all of these posts in this thread but I read enough and I have to add my 2 cents, if you will. I think this is a complete load of you know what.. Nicotine IS in fact Highly addictive and this has been proven many times. Where ever the info in this thread came from, it is obviously from someone who knows nothing of what they are talking. The biggest issue people have when trying to quit smoking, and the reason all those gums and patches dont work, is trying to get over that oral fixation, the mental addiction. Nicotine is Very addictive, but the physical addiction goes away very fast, with some it can be gone after just a good night sleep. After that it is ALL in your head. This is not just speculation or bs, it is 100% proven fact. This post is nothing more than extremely misleading and is really hurting e-cigs. The best thing about the e-cigs is that you get your nicotine fix AND you get your oral fix. Those of you who say that the e-cig does not help your craving are Making yourselves believe this. You have told yourself that this is Not a cigarette and so it will Not help.. Again, this is ALL in your head. It really is amazing how powerful the mind is and what you can do to yourself Physically with just a thought. You may think what Im saying is wrong or whatever, thats fine, but it doesnt change the fact that it is 100% true. Tell yourself that the e-cig isnt going to help, and it wont. Plain and simple. Im sorry for the rant but it really pisses me off when I see threads like this.

./rantOff

EDIT:

From reading some of the other posts on this thread it seems that some of you Are getting it.. You LIKE to smoke, you like the idea of smoking, the feeling of smoking. Therefor a patch or gum will NEVER help. It is a MENTAL addiction, and if you realize this, and that the e-cig is more or less exactly the same as an analog smoke, minus all the harmful crap, it WILL help. So, if you keep telling yourself that the e-cig is not a real cigarette and wont help, then it WONT. Mind over matter people, thats really what it comes down to.

Thanks,

EDIT2:

I have to add this because I do think these forums are helpful.. There really is a ton of very good information on this forum, But there is also so much contradicting information that it almost negates the good stuff. Its sad but very true. You CANNOT believe everything that you read or hear, especially on the internet. People can say whatever they like and it does Not mean that it is true. Go talk to an actual medical professional, a psychologist or a psychiatrist, dont just believe some article youve read online. I know its a lot to ask but people really need to start properly educating themselves.

 

[paladinx]

"Nicotine IS in fact Highly addictive and this has been proven many times."

But a lot of the new studies are saying that vaping is only giving 1/10 the nicotine hit as a cigarette. If this carries any truth, well assume it is true, can that be a major reason why some find the e-cigarette not as fulfilling? Or why some have to have a snus in their mouth like bob.

But i agree, its probably a lot to do with it being mental. and if u really believe in something or very positive about something it will work much better than having a negative attitude.

 

[blueeydsusan]

First time posting and have to put in my two cents. I've been smoking since I was 12 and I am now 50. My Mom killed herself, she also was a smoker. I run from the tag that mental illness runs in families or that mental illness causes suicide. My mother had problems but she also lived in a time when men could put their wives in a mental institution with a single Dr's (always a male) signature. Misogyny at it's finest. She killed herself d/t not seeing a way out, they left her go home on passes for weekends but told her she would not be released. Long story short I FEAR loss of control.
I was raised by my Aunt, a woman that was to everyone very very strong, she drank at one point, before her oldest daughter died in a car accident. She quit drinking except for very occasional lapses. She believed mind over matter. She still had moments but they were hidden. She raised so many of us who had lost our parents. She worked hard and canned and cooked and loved us by doing.
My Aunt smoked, she had emphysema. She denied that. Eventually she got very sick and went to the hospital and one day she could no longer metabolize the carbon dioxide and her blood went acidic very slightly, she threw her carotid bodies and she went brain dead and was put on a ventilator. She eventually was allowed to die and I was there. The day before she went brain dead, she was coughing and she cried out to me "you need to promise you'll quit smoking"
I now am 50 years old and I smoke yet and I have mild emphysema. I quit for a year once and ballooned my weight and craved every minute. I have bought the e-cigs and I know now I probably will never stop wanting a cigarette. I hate all the things that all of you hate, the wanting one, the smell, that fact that the cigarette manufacturers play with our brains. I hate those who say it's easy.
I tried chantix, every damn funeral I ever attended came to me in my dreams and I was MEAN. I felt angry, it was like a ghost trying to get a fix, I smoked but it didn't make me feel better because chantix blocked those receptors.
I tried everything to quit.
It is good to have this group, because I went ahead and bought higher nic liquid with thinking maybe that would help. Now I know I am seeking the "hit" that a cigarette gives.
I do kind of think the seeing vapor helps, kind of like an amputee with phantom leg or arm pain, if they replicate the missing appendage in a mirror the pain goes away to a point.
We are the smart ones here and I think we think outside the box so anything I read here gives me pause for thought.
I, like you am trying to find the answers. It IS chemistry and my biggest fear is I have to live like this and cannot be "fixed" and that my hard wiring is permanently damaged.
Let me rephrase that, I want, even if my hard wiring is damaged to live without a craving for cigarettes and to be able to do that without smoking.

 

[msfatty]

So is it safe to assume that if you stick with e-cigs (and ONLY e-cigs) for long enough, your addiction to the other drugs in analogs will pass? I'm hoping this is the case - the article mentioned something about your "natural protection" returning after a couple months. I have been vaping for a couple weeks now, and while I still occasionally get the urge for an analog, the craving seems to be fading and I can easily ignore it. This has also been the longest I have gone without a smoke since I started in the first place. I'm still somewhat worried about having drinks and wanting an analog (I've only had a couple drinks here and there since I've started) - but going out and getting a good buzz on makes me worried. That was what always tripped me up before when I was using nicotine gum and lozenges - smokes and booze just go together - and it's hard to chew gum and drink!

I have to report to you that I spent an entire night drinking with friends and using the e-cig in place of analogs and i was very satisfied while drinking.

of course i "chain vaped" the entire time, and direct dripped to get super big throat hits, and use a 510 manual.

chain vaping, dripping, big throat hits... all of these things quell my desire during drinking for analogs.

 

[Stric9]

Interesting thread...
I have been smoking for 29 years and have tried many times to quit. Even the sight of someone lighting up would send me over the edge. Tried the cold turkey, gum and patch routes with no success whatsoever.
Anywho - Been using a 510 now for approx 1 month and have not smoked a STANDARD cigarette. Oddly I've had no such cravings for one until YESTERDAY that is.. Was at a biker oriented event (chain smoking a 510) and suddenly from nowhere I got the urge to smoke. But it was only for a split second and then vanished as quickly as it appeared. (There was a heavy amount of smoking and drinking at the event)
I've also noticed (and am wondering if anyone else has) that my craving for coffee has also fallen waaayyyy off. I have a wicked coffee habit (8 ~ 10 espresso shots per day). Someone else here stated that the e-cig doesn't taste as good with coffee as a standard cigarette does and I would have to agree. Could the coffee & cigarette craving be connected?

 

[sta11mom]

...But it was only for a split second and then vanished as quickly as it appeared. (There was a heavy amount of smoking and drinking at the event)
I've also noticed (and am wondering if anyone else has) that my craving for coffee has also fallen waaayyyy off. I have a wicked coffee habit (8 ~ 10 espresso shots per day). Someone else here stated that the e-cig doesn't taste as good with coffee as a standard cigarette does and I would have to agree. Could the coffee & cigarette craving be connected?

Amen to both. I find that if I smell someone's exhaled smoke, I want an analog BAD. Yet I find it distasteful to smell the smoke from the burning end.

My coffee consumption is way down also. The coffee doesn't trigger vaping the way it used to trigger smoking, and I don't need the 3rd or 4th cups since I started vaping. Curious.

 

[rengic]

This thread is way old and probably should be put out to pasture.
I do, however, want to make clear and express my disappointment that Satire's liquid plus inhibitor experiment has appeared to have never reached fruition. He has not posted on the ecig forum since commenting in January that he planned to report his findings in a week. Perhaps a new thread is in order with a new juice maker who would be willing to expand on these insights.

 

[breno]

Seems to me if you went to a psycharatrists medicine cupboards took out all the medicines, anti-depressants, anti-psychotics, pain killers, amphetamine, anti-anxieties,
the whole frigging lot then mixed them all up and put them in a little white tube you would basicaly have a cigarette.

 

[lxor]

I wonder if a 5-HTP supplement would help. Although those are extremely expensive.

5-HTP is not expensive at all. I dont know where you live or where you get your 5-HTP. I can get a monthly supply for $12-$15 retail. Check online, I just checked Vitacost and you can get it there for 50%. This dirt cheap compared to pharmaceuticals. Maybe you were thinking of SAMe which is more expensive.

 

[lxor]

I take Celexa...

I actually quit smoking while taking Celexa(Citalopram). The problem occurred when I tried to quit Celexa. I had dreadful withdrawal side effects for weeks and started smoking again to deal with them. Thereafter when I would try to quit smoking, Celexa withdrawal side effects would return but at a reduced intensity. This lasted for 3 years after stopping Celexa. Needles to say I will not be taking Celexa again. Quitting smoking on Celexa was somewhat easier than without it, but by no means pleasant.

I have also in the past taken Zoloft and later 5-HTP, however without much impact on my smoking. There has been a general benefit to my well-being - especially with 5-HTP, but not enough to dent my smoking habit.